Project Appleseed

The following is a quick summary of thoughts on the various platforms of rimfire rifles commonly seen on the lines at AS events... Been at this for awhile, so this is based on experience after 1000's of students and 150 ish events.... These are generalizations, so your mileage may vary with any particular platform...

Ruger 10/22:  After many years of fighting coming to this conclusion, this is THE rifle for loaners... You can make it the right for any size shooter, and can use it as a basic loaner once the LTR treatment has been applied,  get crazy and sink high dollars to achieve that mystical 250 score and everywhere in between... I've had 6 shooters score 250 ... 4 using 10/22 platforms..Yeah, you got fix it as it comes out of the factory box, but it runs and won't quit on you... Pains me to say this....

Marlin 795:  These WERE my go to loaners... Pre-Remington purchase rifles were great for the money.. I've got two of note, one clocking in with 30k + rounds and one north of 45K + rounds thru em... I've pulled em out of loaner rotation, (except 1 newer one with lower miles) NOT due to accuracy reasons, but reliability reasons, as they are pretty worn out... Not worth spending the money for new parts...I hope Ruger brings em back, but I'm not holding my breath...  Strengths? Almost great for AS, right out of the box... Can't say that for Ruger 10/22...

Rem 795:  Just don't do it... reliability issues, many OOB experiences, mags unreliable, not much positive to say about after about 80 rounds thru the rifle..

Rimfire AR Platforms:   These days, lots of folks go this route for good reason... Results typically vary by the money spent... Tippmans are solid, as are most dedicated uppers... Conversion kits are hit and miss... There WAS a time where sling pressure would commonly change the rifles POI, but that seems to have been solved... I believe they're generally a more expensive option than decent 10/22, but they certainly have their benefits in commonality with the center fire big brothers... 2 of my 250 shooter used AR conversion, BUT, they were SERIOUSLY dedicated, near professional high power shooters with deep pockets for gear expenditure...

Marlin M-60:  Don't see em as often as I used to, but they seem to have about a 75% good rifle/ 25% train wreck ratio... I like em, despite the tube feed, but certainly wouldn't make one a loaner...

Bolt Guns:  Ruger, CZ, insert your favorite here...  :   Fun choices for medium to advanced shooters, but not recommended for beginners.. Skip the baseline Marlins and Savages.. Go with target models when possible. My go to's are Ruger Americans and/or CZ's... Old Mossberg bolt guns are tack drivers and can normally be had for bargain prices too....

New kid on the block:  Winchester Wildcat: On paper shows some promise..  The rear sight is junk, but haven't seen enough on the line yet to give a safe opinion... 

Springfield gill guns, oddball oldies from Sears/Wards/Western Auto, and oddball Marlin or two, show up from time to time, with low success rates... some are great, most not so much...

Again, YMMV with your individual gun.. Not trying to offend.. just sharing experience for the next gen of vols and hoping they can learn vicariously thru prior knowledge...

Nicely done and well written. Your experience and mine on the rifles mentioned are very close.

For a host of reasons the 10/22 is king. Pretty good out of the box once you replace the sights or mount a scope. Depending on the model installing a sling to a factory stock can be either very easy or a small challenge.  One item to install that I really like is a bolt release. Then there are the millions of after market parts that make the platform so appealing to so many.

I discovered the Marlin 795 three years ago and really like them. Good, inexpensive rifle that one. Like the 10/22 the factory sights are difficult for newbies in an Appleseed event. Thankfully Tech Sights have a good set of sights that are super easy to install.

In Liberty,

Gus

Generally I'd have to agree.

I have both 10/22 and 795 loaners in my collection.  I've often said if you could combine the best features of the two, it would be the perfect rifle.  Now that Ruger owns Marlin, perhaps my dreams will be realized, and they'll incorporate those 795 elements in the 10/22 in the future.

Ruger magazine system
Marlin Barrel
Ruger Modular stock system (that I wish so very much they would sell by itself!)
Marlin last-shot bolt hold-open and bolt release
a REAL iron sight system - both of them suck
The Ruger trigger is simpler to upgrade, but more expensive than the 795 upgrade.  I think easy is king, here.

Pretty much anything else is cosmetics

I only have two 795s. Both of them are more accurate than my 10/22s, but the 10/22 magazine system is so much more user friendly that I save the marlins for last on the loaner list, or for students with some experience who may just not have a 22 to use.

795 parts could get interesting going forward. It's unlikely that Ruger will continue to produce the platform, given that it's a direct competitor to the 10/22. Another reason to keep them at the bottom of the loaner list. When the parts wear out, and eventually they all do, it might be hard to get more.  I replaced the firing pin on one recently. That rifle has over 10 years of use as a loaner.  It took some doing to find one, so I got a few.

There's no danger of running out of 10/22 parts any time soon.

bottom line, I love my Marlins (my personal Appleseed rifle is pre-brady Model 60), but the ones I've been getting for loaners are Rugers.

Yes, simplicity and reliability are key to a good loaner rifle.  The Ruger 10-22 has earned it's position on the line with these traits.

I added last round hold open to my first 10-22, but later removed the feature for sake of uniformity across the board.

Ruger has most of the features we would like to see on an Appleseed rifle. My latest loaner is based on a Commemorative rifle that comes with a peep sight and picatinny rail. A Tech-site peep replacement was added for click adjustability. A scope is QD mounted slightly higher to allow the irons to clear. With the addition of an Archangel precision stock, complete quick adjustability is maintained. The OE "flash hider" protects the barrel from the inevitable dive into the dirt.

After starting out with Rem 597 and Savage ?, the magazine determined which I chose for the long run. Availability and a manual of arms familiar with every instructor and many students make things easier all around.

I've had several winchester wildcats come through our events here in North Texas, unfortunately they are hot garbage the free float barrel is infact free floating buy there's so much flex between the stock and the barrel that using a loop sling does impart movemen. Probably fine if your using a bipod or a rest but since we shoot with loops it's problematic. Keeping on that trash stock the polymer is not strong enough to repeatedly use with a tension sling. I have seen three rifles rip the front sling mount that's integrated into the forend when using tension on the sling.

Finally on crap irons. Yes it has a aperture sight. But there's no click adjustment you loosen a set screw that is of a micro variety ( with the crap Allen key tool that breaks when you use it) and hope for the best.

Does it use ruger mags? Yes,  is it reliable? Debatable, I had one that would only use wildcat mags reliably which are almost non existent aftermarket,

10/22s have a host of issues aswell but there's aftermarket solutions  to alginate those problems. And those solutions do not exist for the wildcat

TLDR, just buy a 10/22 or a mp1522 or a tippman.

I have had great success with the savage a22 rifle. I took mine right out of the box, bolted on a rail and scope and haven't looked back. It has the accu trigger and auto bolt release from the factory and is priced to compete with the 10/22. The only issue I have seen so far is very little aftermarket support. Because of that mags can be hard to come by at times.

If you have a Remington 597 (there is no such thing as a Remington 795) be sure to upgrade the extractor with an after market one.  It's a $15 part (well, $21 part now) that makes the rifle continue to function.  Buying the heavier aftermarket metal mags are a big improvement too. 

DUCKY earned her Rifleman patch on her Remington 597. 

I'm team Marlin. The Microgroove rifling isn't just hype. They do require one to RTFM if one wants it to be reliable tho. "More than a penny, less than a nickel".

So if those 795s need a new home…

10/22 is my go to platform but they are getting more and more expensive for a base model here in WA and I'm having a difficult time justifying that purchase when I can get 2 Rossi RS22s for the same price.  I may have a few dedicated 10/22 loaners but I think given the expense of having loaner rifles, I would likely feel less sad if a RS22 was soaking up the elements at our standard wet/drizzly WA 9 months out of the year versus my personal 10/22s....  I see there was a review of the RS22 here by someone and it seemed to be positive, I may take the leap and acquire one to try.  Most of the rifles we see here are either AR patterns, 10/22, Ruger American, Ruger Precision, and a few 795, small number of Savages, and an even smaller number of tube fed ones.

Quote from: 509gman on September 19, 2022, 09:36:40 PM
I'm team Marlin. The Microgroove rifling isn't just hype. They do require one to RTFM if one wants it to be reliable tho. "More than a penny, less than a nickel".

So if those 795s need a new home…

You're right about the rifling. It's my hope that Ruger starts to implement it now that they own the rights and equipment.

My 795s have been upgraded, a little. Mcarbo trigger kits being the biggest one.  Very inexpensive, but lots of little pieces to swap out. There was no small amount of Yosemite Sam-style muttering during installation, but it was worth it.

My go to loaners have been Marlin 795s with 4x scopes.  Very solid setup with many shooters earning patches with just about every type of 22 ammo.  Big issue now is that magazine prices have shot up to $30 each.  Just opened last two mags I had in reserve from a decade-ish ago and they were marked $7.95!

Quote from: Vinnie on September 19, 2022, 05:30:55 PM
If you have a Remington 597 (there is no such thing as a Remington 795) be sure to upgrade the extractor with an after market one.  It's a $15 part (well, $21 part now) that makes the rifle continue to function.  Buying the heavier aftermarket metal mags are a big improvement too. 

Yup - I called my Rem 597 the JamMaster until I replaced the extractor. Works half azz now. After market mags I got still suck though. Better than the factory ones at least. Very accurate - moreso than the 10/22. What a shame. It could have been a really great 22.

Ruger 10/22 - why in the heck do they put such crappy sights on them? And the triggers - some are kinda OK and some beyond screwy. The one I have must be 8-10 pound pull. Not exaggerating. By the time you got them working well you've spent a lot of money. Reliable at least.

Marlin 795 - nice rifle. Accurate. Like em. More than the 10/22. And the Model 60? Most accurate 22 I have. Dang they are nice. I have one of the really old ones. Tack driver.

Tippmann - my favorite. Just love it. Good training rifle. Accurate. Reliable. Well worth the money. I left the stock trigger on it since it's not bad at all. There is an instructor discount - about 419 - if you'd like one.

Loaners - I loan my Tippmann or 10/22. Most people I loan the Tippmann to go and buy one.

Disclaimer - of course all rifles even from the same manufacturer can vary widely in performance, accuracy, and reliability.

Quote from: sur+rifle on September 20, 2022, 09:40:47 AM
Big issue now is that magazine prices have shot up to $30 each.  Just opened last two mags I had in reserve from a decade-ish ago and they were marked $7.95!

I feel this....

Been a fan of the Marlin 795.  Working with 5 in the collection.  One needs a rebuild. 4 are solid.  I like what I see from the Tippmanns.  There is a rifle that is seldom mentioned:  The Mossberg 702 Plinkster.  My better half adopted one as her rifle for her first Appleseed (22inch barrel model no longer in production) She scored Rifleman with a 3-9 scope.  The only upgrade it has seen was a gift of better optics (now sporting a 3.5-10of much better quality). Nothing stops this rifle. It eats anything and can go multiple shoots with little or no cleaning feeding on Golden Bullets!  It had made more than 2 dozen Riflemen and has 12 years on the circuit as a regular loaner.  I can say without qualification that it was THE DIRTIEST RIFLE I have ever cleaned.  It was not having issues, I just finally got around to a full teardown.  They have marketed a "bantam" version with shorter length of pull. I am considering adding one to the team.

Another great rifle is the CZ 512.  It looks like it is again in production.  Mine is occasionally a loaner if I really trust the shooter.  It is a NICE rifle, so I do take care of it.  I have seen Rifleman score with this model, mine and others.

The Rossi RS22 is a rebranded Mossberg 702.  The Brazilian barrels are vary accurate in my limited experience with them.  Rumor is the bolt action magazines work with them and are easier to remove as the " bolt hold open" is just the follower catching the bolt and it closes after you pull out the mag.

There is also a rebate from Rossi. (Fall 2022)  If Wally World still has it, minus the rebate it will be less than $100.  Use the one piece air gun mounts that grip the dove tail.

I would resist but it will share mags with the Mossberg 801 Half-pint Plinkster a wonderful youth sized bolt.

 My Marlin 99c  (model 60 from 1973) has shot requals multiple times  as well as my CZ 512.

https://www.rkguns.com/rossi-rs22-22-lr-semi-automatic-10rd-18-rifle-rs22l1811.html

Rural King has the RS22 on sale for $110.  Not sure what there shipping is to a non Rural King FFL but they are offering that service again.  There is a $25 rebate too.

Dunhams has a coupon for a little more.  It will come down to which one has it in store.

Jim has given me the bug and I really want to test it.

Chuck