Project Appleseed

Quote from: Caife Trean on January 14, 2022, 10:37:49 PM
Ian from Forgotten Weapons once did a video on a bizarre confederate sniper rifle designed originally for shooting in a supine position. Apparently you would lie on your back and rest the barrel on your thigh. He talks about this starting around the 8:45 mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi-S_horZGk

That's commonly called creedmoor position and it was popular at least into the late 1870s.

Quote from: Maximum Ordinate on January 12, 2022, 12:53:30 PM

Quote from: AJ Gonzales on January 12, 2022, 12:36:04 PM
If that's the case, then certainly resting the rifle on the mag in the prone position is cool too, right?

Liberty?

So why teach sitting at all? Is the point not to give the shooter a higher line of sight than what they otherwise couldn't get out of prone?

Why not rest on the mag?

Are we not trying to provide the best field shooting marksmanship instruction?

You're cheating students out of learning valuable skills by both letting them do "monkey prone" and by letting mags rest on the floor.

Not good.

Quote from: AJ Gonzales on January 15, 2022, 07:29:30 PM

Quote from: Maximum Ordinate on January 12, 2022, 12:53:30 PM

Quote from: AJ Gonzales on January 12, 2022, 12:36:04 PM
If that's the case, then certainly resting the rifle on the mag in the prone position is cool too, right?

Liberty?

So why teach sitting at all? Is the point not to give the shooter a higher line of sight than what they otherwise couldn't get out of prone?

Why not rest on the mag?

Are we not trying to provide the best field shooting marksmanship instruction?

You're cheating students out of learning valuable skills by both letting them do "monkey prone" and by letting mags rest on the floor.

Not good.

From the just released Instructor Manual page 26……..


vi. We don't use bipods at Appleseeds and you may not use your magazine as a monopod by resting it on the ground.

Two Master Instructors have shared that the position is okay.  We don't teach it, but don't disqualify those who shoot in it.

We have never allowed monopodding from a magazine.  The army might do it, but our standards are higher.

Quote from: VietVet on January 15, 2022, 09:13:35 PM

Quote from: AJ Gonzales on January 15, 2022, 07:29:30 PM

Quote from: Maximum Ordinate on January 12, 2022, 12:53:30 PM

Quote from: AJ Gonzales on January 12, 2022, 12:36:04 PM
If that's the case, then certainly resting the rifle on the mag in the prone position is cool too, right?

Liberty?

So why teach sitting at all? Is the point not to give the shooter a higher line of sight than what they otherwise couldn't get out of prone?

Why not rest on the mag?

Are we not trying to provide the best field shooting marksmanship instruction?

You're cheating students out of learning valuable skills by both letting them do "monkey prone" and by letting mags rest on the floor.

Not good.

From the just released Instructor Manual page 26……..


vi. We don't use bipods at Appleseeds and you may not use your magazine as a monopod by resting it on the ground.

But... why?

To make it harder? Perhaps valid. *but really it's about teaching techniques that work will all rifle platforms, even those without magazines* Then we go and make it easier by "allowing" elbows on the ground during seated which totally defeats the purpose of shooting in a seated position.

Why bother?

This is the same kind of stuff where people game the AQT with the shoot-a-round-then-switch-mags nonsense in the rapids (thankfully that's specifically out)

Rise up. Bring others with you.

It has been stated already that "monkey prone" uses your body parts. The magazine is not a body part. As Mrs. Smith pointed out, Malabar, Maximum Ordinate and DonD have ruled on this in this thread already. Let's move on.

Appeal to authority.

There are things that define Appleseed. Shooting unsupported is one of them.  What is the real concern here?

Quote from: Mrs. Smith on January 16, 2022, 12:01:36 PM
There are things that define Appleseed. Shooting unsupported is one of them.  What is the real concern here?

I'm all for shooting unsupported. That's good stuff.

I'm not for "monkey prone". The whole point of seated is to give the shooter a higher line of sight. Elbows on the ground eliminates that. The shooter is robbed of experience learning and mastering a useful position. Instead theyre just doing prone but worse.

It's not good marksmanship instruction and devalues their experience. We should do better and lead participants to better shooting.

Amen on your 2nd paragraph.

Nobody is teaching this.  It's not in the Instructor Manual.  We aren't encouraging it. And I'd bet most of us discourage it on the extremely rare occasions when we see it.

However, if a shooter insists on sitting that way, they aren't penalized.

Quote from: Mrs. Smith on January 16, 2022, 12:18:01 PM
... rare occasions when we see it.

...this.

Seems like we sometimes get caught up on things that don't really matter. How about using that same energy to find better ways to teach NPOA, or better ways to communicate what a good trigger squeeze feels like, or how to tell a better story, or how to really reach someone with a benediction, or ..., or ..., or...

Why do we not encourage or sanction "monopoding " on a magazine when the Army teaches it?  A MilSpec AR-15 with MilSpec magazines will perform reliably most of the time.  Our shooters and their gear are not always (if ever) MilSpec.  Using a platform other than an AR-15 and you may find you induce jams and malfunctions more reliably than shots much less hits on target.  Banning "monopoding" gets rid of a great source of shooter frustration.
In over 10 years on the line I have seen one man and seven women who could shoot "Monkey-Prone".  Most of them moved to a higher, more comfortable position after a few attempts. 

Trying to "monopod" a rimfire rifle such as 10/22 or M&P15-22 is guaranteed to cause jams.

Quote from: jmdavis on January 11, 2022, 05:37:42 PM
Kneeling is still legal in Appleseed, isn't it. It's certainly possible to clean the sitting stage kneeling.

Yep. Still taught and acceptable for the AQT. See page 76 of the 9th edition Rifle Instructor Manual.

Quote from: FiremanBob on December 21, 2021, 03:08:28 PM
I advise students that even if they have the flexibility - and arm length - to get elbows on the ground, they will shoot better with elbows on the legs. Reason is that if the elbows are that low the spine is nearly horizontal, so you have to crane your neck way up to raise your eyes so you can see downrange  instead of straight down. This is very hard on the neck and extremely uncomfortable. If the spine is at a better diagonal to the ground your head will rest more naturally on the stock...

I apply this principle to the prone position. I keep my hands closer to the action of the rifle, and bring my elbows closer to my body. This props my upper torso higher and makes for a more comfortable neck, and better cheek-weld. Otherwise I find that I have to crane my neck, like you say. Also makes it easier to align the center of my glasses' lens with the sights. Your mileage may vary.

Quote from: malabar on December 13, 2021, 10:43:10 PM
...The better question is, is it acceptable to shoot seated from "rice paddy prone?"

I don't know the answer to that. Technically, they're squatting, not sitting. Is that important? It's a great position that we don't teach...

I personally like shooting from a squatting position. It's quick to get into, and is nice if there is a lot of mud or snow (hence "rice-paddy").

I don't teach it at Appleseeds. I wouldn't teach it to newer shooters, or to experienced shooters if newer ones are present (monkey see, monkey do). I have a nightmare scenario in my mind's-eye of a student with a heavy-recoiling rifle and poor ankle mobility getting rocked onto his or her back and then pointing the muzzle who knows where.
I don't believe there is any official guidance on squatting, but I'd classify it as a "seated" position for our purposes.

Another reason to not teach another position, like squatting, is that students are already drinking enough from the fire-hose without adding more.  ¯\_(ãƒ,,)_/¯

How about this position? I don't know what it is called but this is a fairly well known picture of a Marine in Viet Nam. Looks like you could kick your left foot back/forward to adjust elevation, guessing right leg is behind left ankle? Has anyone tried it?

Quote from: danfinger on April 16, 2023, 03:20:42 AM
How about this position? I don't know what it is called but this is a fairly well known picture of a Marine in Viet Nam. Looks like you could kick your left foot back/forward to adjust elevation, guessing right leg is behind left ankle? Has anyone tried it?

  Not liking it. 

IMO lack of support/control of firearm.
No use of "Steady Hold Factors". No sling use, no real support.

"Well known picture" but I've never seen it used.

Stick with the Steady Hold Factors we now teach.

Just my opinion.

That is called the Seated Sniper's Cradle.
I have used it, it is easy, stable, accurate, and works well with traditional stock platforms.
It's terrible with many MSR platforms because the magazine locations can force a fixed butt stock too far back, and a pistol grip changes the way the non firing hand locks everything into place.

There's also an open leg variant that can be used to support the firing arm.

The picture in question is Carlos Hathcock, a famous American Sniper in Vietnam. Also known as White Feather. A great man and an excellent marksman. I will certainly not disparage him or his shooting. Hathcock was accurate enough to apparently shoot another Sniper through their scope. He was extremely successful with that position. And even coached others. However, it never caught on as a standard position. It has remained a variation, just like monkey prone, also called freak show prone. Both are great positions, but not everyone can do them. Monkey prone requires a lot of flexibility. Seated Sniper Cradle, which is what I have seen Hathcock's position called, requires a lot of muscle tension and a fair amount of arm strength in the support arm. Additionally, Hathcock's position is for a bolt action rifle. It doesn't lend well to shifting between targets or reloading a semiautomatic. But that is my opinion.

This article has some good tips on seated and goes into some of the more unusual positions.
https://www.everydaymarksman.co/marksmanship/sitting-position-rifle/

Roswell, Great minds think alike.
And so do ours.

Quote from: Timothy_D on April 16, 2023, 02:39:42 PM
Roswell, Great minds think alike.
And so do ours.

For me, the reason NOT to teach monopoding is primarily tradition. We are a history and heritage organization that teaches shooting as the hook to get people to the range to teach marksmanship HISTORY. Heritage still counts with me. What's next, give everyone who can't monopod a sandbag to make the line equal? To start allowing monopoding would cheapen the value of the accomplishment of anyone who has ever qualified without it. Plus, if you can qualify without support, you could definitely shoot better using support when the time calls for it.  We are not alone is disallowing monopoding. If you shoot an NRA or CMP XTC match, you can't monopod in either of those or you'll be DQ'd.

Wreck

"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." ― Samuel Adams

Quote from: The Wolfhound on January 17, 2022, 12:41:30 PMWhy do we not encourage or sanction "monopoding " on a magazine when the Army teaches it?  A MilSpec AR-15 with MilSpec magazines will perform reliably most of the time.  Our shooters and their gear are not always (if ever) MilSpec.  Using a platform other than an AR-15 and you may find you induce jams and malfunctions more reliably than shots much less hits on target.  Banning "monopoding" gets rid of a great source of shooter frustration.
In over 10 years on the line I have seen one man and seven women who could shoot "Monkey-Prone".  Most of them moved to a higher, more comfortable position after a few attempts.