Project Appleseed

I stumbled across this video on YouTube which claims that adjusting the torque on your 10/22 takedown screw can yield some pretty impressive gains in accuracy:

https://youtu.be/xAI0_LGnrak

Has anybody tried this before?  I plan to do a more thorough test of this theory the next time I'm at the range - I'm just a little skeptical the torque would have such a large correlation to accuracy on a 22 rimfire.  You would think Ruger would realize that and publish optimum torque specs with each rifle.  Can anybody see any obvious concerns with applying torque in a range of 10 to 30 in-lbs?  Is anybody pushing past 30 on theirs?

Takedown screw tension can have a major impact in accuracy of the 10/22.  This is why many instructors call this screw the "accuracy screw". 

It would appear from the limited testing shown in the video, that different stocks and different barrels would have a different preferred torque spec on that bolt.

This seems like a worthwhile test to perform on your rifle.  Once a preferred torque spec is found for the rifle, I'd use blue loctite on the screw to ensure it does not loosen up over time.

Quote from: ItsanSKS on December 06, 2020, 05:26:48 PM
Takedown screw tension can have a major impact in accuracy of the 10/22.  This is why many instructors call this screw the "accuracy screw". 

It would appear from the limited testing shown in the video, that different stocks and different barrels would have a different preferred torque spec on that bolt.

This seems like a worthwhile test to perform on your rifle.  Once a preferred torque spec is found for the rifle, I'd use blue loctite on the screw to ensure it does not loosen up over time.

Something else to keep in mind.  In the video he was working in 10 in-lb increments, which isn't much.  Adding blue Loctite makes it a "wet" torque, which changes the torque value.  For example, a 10 in-lb dry torque would be about equal to a 7 in-lb wet torque, or maybe 6.

Yep, adjusting the torque of the action screw can yield some surprisingly good results. The first part of that equation is just having a *consistent* torque. Often, that screw will work itself loose over time, and without realizing it you'll wind up at the range with a completely loose screw.

The second part of the equation (depending on who you ask and which theory you subscribe to) is barrel harmonics, or how the barrel whips around as the bullet is traveling down the bore. A good torque setting will cause the barrel to whip around the same way on every shot.

Part of the reason that there isn't a manufacturer-specified torque value is that each rifle is unique. Also, the ammo plays a big part in how the barrel moves when fired.

Personally, I don't like going over 30 inch-pounds on small screws like that. Here's another video that demonstrates the effects of varying the action screw torque: https://youtube.com/watch?v=iSIUtraui00
You'll notice that he tests his screws at 5 inch-pound increments, and goes up to 40 inch-pounds. I think his stock might have metal pillars embedded in it, which would enable higher torque values without squishing the wood of the stock.

As EZ3 mentioned, thread locking liquid has the side effect of lubricating the threads, so ease up on your torque values if you use it. Otherwise, you'll inadvertently be applying more torque than the screwdriver thinks it's applying. You could end up stripping the threads if you're already on the high end of what it can handle. Side note: make sure to use the blue / temporary thread locker, not the red / permanent variety.

Lastly, pick up a torque screwdriver if you don't already have one. This whole discussion is moot if you don't have a way to accurately measure the torque you're applying. The Wheeler FAT Wrench is common & inexpensive. The Vortex torque screwdriver is a little nicer if you want something that's not made of plastic.

Good luck! Playing around with the adjustments on your rifle can be a fun & rewarding process.

I watched a video of an older gentleman on Youtube, Gunblue 490 who had some interesting things to say on the take down screw torque.  I thought it was informative:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fhIQmELhRs

I just torque mine between 10 and 12 inch/pound now.  Since i'm new at this, I will see how this works out.

^ there is something very cathartic and relaxing about watching that man talk about gunsmithing.  "We'll call it the takedown screw, because - well, that's what it is"  He's killing me with the magazine in the rifle though, wtf. 

Shame on me for not responding to my own thread.  I set up a Squares target at 25m and I got out my Wheeler Fat-Wrench.  I put 5 rounds on each square for each torque setting - 10, 15, 20, 25, 30.  I shaved a large 1 MOA off my natural group at 15"lb.  The difference between 15 and 30 was almost 2 MOA

Then I broke out my LTR - a totally different model 10/22 - expecting different results.  Nope, 15"lb again.  Tightest group possible.  Clearly the best torque setting for my rimfires.   

The torque wrench now lives in my range box, pre-set to 15"lb, and I torque my takedown screws at the beginning, middle, and end of my shooting session.  I can't wait to pull the Fat-Wrench out on the next 10/22 shooter at Appleseed who is doing everything right but just can't seem to break 210.

Edit: skip to 11:50 in the video if you want to hear the man talk about 'sweet spots'

Quote from: T. WOLF on January 27, 2021, 02:31:45 AM
^ there is something very cathartic and relaxing about watching that man talk about gunsmithing.  "We'll call it the takedown screw, because - well, that's what it is"  He's killing me with the magazine in the rifle though, wtf. 

Shame on me for not responding to my own thread.  I set up a Squares target at 25m and I got out my Wheeler Fat-Wrench.  I put 5 rounds on each square for each torque setting - 10, 15, 20, 25, 30.  I shaved a large 1 MOA off my natural group at 15"lb.  The difference between 15 and 30 was almost 2 MOA

Then I broke out my LTR - a totally different model 10/22 - expecting different results.  Nope, 15"lb again.  Tightest group possible.  Clearly the best torque setting for my rimfires.   

The torque wrench now lives in my range box, pre-set to 15"lb, and I torque my takedown screws at the beginning, middle, and end of my shooting session.  I can't wait to pull the Fat-Wrench out on the next 10/22 shooter at Appleseed who is doing everything right but just can't seem to break 210.

Edit: skip to 11:50 in the video if you want to hear the man talk about 'sweet spots'

Thanks!  Good info.  I always have a Fat Wrench with me at the range and will keep that in mind.

 I'd recommend NOT leaving the wrench set at any torque setting other than the minimum unless you are currently using it. The internal spring is not meant to have constant tension, and accuracy will be lost.

I wonder if one of these would be helpful to bring to events and use with loaners - https://smile.amazon.com/Fix-Sticks-inch-lb-Miniature-Limiter/dp/B015S8WWS6/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=15+inch+pound+torque+limiter&qid=1611927663&sr=8-5

Please notice that the stocks in the video are synthetic.  Wood is generally more compressible and pressure varies based on humidity.  In a wood stock, you will get more consistency if the action screw area is pillar bedded and the barrel is free floated (except maybe for the first few inches on the breech end).  I am not saying accuracy will necessarily be better if you free float the barrel, but rather it will be more consistent.  Some barrels do not like to be free floated (that is one reason that there is often a pressure pad near the muzzle when coming from the factory (the other two reasons is the fact that there is only one action screw and the barrel attachment method often leads to barrel droop...flaws that Ruger remedied in the custom shop versions).

Quote from: Catch-10-22 on January 29, 2021, 09:42:20 AM
I wonder if one of these would be helpful to bring to events and use with loaners - https://smile.amazon.com/Fix-Sticks-inch-lb-Miniature-Limiter/dp/B015S8WWS6/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=15+inch+pound+torque+limiter&qid=1611927663&sr=8-5

Having a way to torque a screw to a known value is a great tool to have on the line when troubleshooting issues. I'd recommend a torque screwdriver instead of the sticks, for two reasons:
- The stick is non-adjustable. When experimenting with accuracy, the take-down screw will have a slightly different torque sweet spot for each rifle. Also, other screws like scope bases & rings will have different torque values.
- The sticks are expensive. $40 for one stick is essentially the price of a cheap plastic torque screwdriver like the Wheeler FAT wrench. The price for two different values of sticks is about the same as a nicer metal screwdriver like the Vortex model.

Quote from: LogCabinShooter on January 29, 2021, 08:33:19 AM
I'd recommend NOT leaving the wrench set at any torque setting other than the minimum unless you are currently using it. The internal spring is not meant to have constant tension, and accuracy will be lost.

That's a good point. It's common practice to change the setting on a torque wrench down to its lowest value before storing it away. That way the spring is under the least amount of tension. I realize that springs taking a set can be an arguable topic, but torque wrenches are precision instruments. Small variances in spring tension will have an effect on the torque value. In commercial/industrial applications, torque wrenches are often recalibrated annually because the spring tension & accuracy can drift over time.

The calibration and storage thing was one of the reasons I felt like a fixed torque limiter would be useful to have around. And while tuning individual rifles is certainly the ideal thing to do, for reassembling 6-8 loaners after cleaning or doing a basic torque value on someone else's rifle at an event I am not going to that effort. I bought one - will do a review.

Quote from: Nashville Stage on January 29, 2021, 10:18:19 AM

Quote from: Catch-10-22 on January 29, 2021, 09:42:20 AM
I wonder if one of these would be helpful to bring to events and use with loaners - https://smile.amazon.com/Fix-Sticks-inch-lb-Miniature-Limiter/dp/B015S8WWS6/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=15+inch+pound+torque+limiter&qid=1611927663&sr=8-5

Having a way to torque a screw to a known value is a great tool to have on the line when troubleshooting issues. I'd recommend a torque screwdriver instead of the sticks, for two reasons:
- The stick is non-adjustable. When experimenting with accuracy, the take-down screw will have a slightly different torque sweet spot for each rifle. Also, other screws like scope bases & rings will have different torque values.
- The sticks are expensive. $40 for one stick is essentially the price of a cheap plastic torque screwdriver like the Wheeler FAT wrench. The price for two different values of sticks is about the same as a nicer metal screwdriver like the Vortex model.

I'm a bicycle mechanic and use inch pound torque wrenches daily.  My preference is definitely for the adjustable click torque wrenches. 

One big reason is that I can set the torque low and work my way up to the recommended torque if I have doubts about the fastener's ability to handle the recommended torque.  With experience you can feel when you're beginning to get bolt stretch and stop ahead of the wrench clicking.

Being able to have a single Fat Wrench driver that I can put any bit in and do everything from scope wrings to rail mounting bolts is a big help.

Quote from: Tennessee Beast on January 29, 2021, 09:43:15 AM
Please notice that the stocks in the video are synthetic.  Wood is generally more compressible and pressure varies based on humidity.  In a wood stock, you will get more consistency if the action screw area is pillar bedded and the barrel is free floated (except maybe for the first few inches on the breech end).  I am not saying accuracy will necessarily be better if you free float the barrel, but rather it will be more consistent.  Some barrels do not like to be free floated (that is one reason that there is often a pressure pad near the muzzle when coming from the factory (the other two reasons is the fact that there is only one action screw and the barrel attachment method often leads to barrel droop...flaws that Ruger remedied in the custom shop versions).

Do you mind sharing what Ruger changed?  I bedded the tail of the trigger group housing to create a ledge to resist upward movement of the rear of the receiver on mine.  Curious if Ruger's fix is any easier to do.

I like the idea of the torque limiter since both of my 10/22's like 15"lb.  But yeah, $40 seems a little steep.  I just went to my range bag and reset the torque on my Fat Wrench to zero.  Thanks guys!

Quote from: Lomshek on January 29, 2021, 01:17:08 PMDo you mind sharing what Ruger changed?  I bedded the tail of the trigger group housing to create a ledge to resist upward movement of the rear of the receiver on mine.  Curious if Ruger's fix is any easier to do.

There is a tang on the rear of the receiver to hold the back down and at the front of the receiver there is a bolt inline with the barrel (coaxially) at the top to secure the top of the barrel. I am looking for a video on youtube that explains this, but not finding much.
I have one of the rifles and it shoot very well; better than I do anyway.

edited for link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj4r5yGZVfM&feature=emb_logo

I too have one of the Custom Shop 10/22's.  This rifle is truly the ultimate 10/22. I have several built 10/22's but none are better than the CS, tho' some cost considerably more.  The CS has the receiver anchored both front and rear, the barrel has additional bolt at the top to prevent droop, and the integral 30 MOA pic rail is extended beyond the receiver.  The bolt is a new design (Is there a chance of last round hold open coming?).  Only thing I changed was the BX trigger.  Put in a Brimstone Stage II trigger with a longer mag release.  Haven't found any reference as to what chamber is used, tho' it is definitely tighter--had an unfired round not extract.  The rifle is like cheating.   An after market stock that will offer similar performance is the Victor Co Titan II stock. It offers both front and rear anchoring of the receiver, and there Titan cheekrest kit takes care of the comb heighth.   
   Lots of options out there, but I don't think I can do better tan the CS 10/22 only different.           

Quote from: Burnett on January 29, 2021, 06:41:04 PM

Quote from: Lomshek on January 29, 2021, 01:17:08 PMDo you mind sharing what Ruger changed?  I bedded the tail of the trigger group housing to create a ledge to resist upward movement of the rear of the receiver on mine.  Curious if Ruger's fix is any easier to do.

There is a tang on the rear of the receiver to hold the back down and at the front of the receiver there is a bolt inline with the barrel (coaxially) at the top to secure the top of the barrel. I am looking for a video on youtube that explains this, but not finding much.
I have one of the rifles and it shoot very well; better than I do anyway.

edited for link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj4r5yGZVfM&feature=emb_logo

Thanks!