Project Appleseed

I recently participated as a shooter in a known distance event and would like to share my experiences, partly for those who have yet to attend a known distance, and partly to receive feedback (bludgeoning?) from more experienced shooters.

Although I know that this is not the place for equipment discussion, it is important, in this case, to know the equipment being used. This will become apparent shortly. So, I was shooting a 20" AR-15 with M855 ammo. The scope is a Primary Arms 4-14x44 FFP with side adjustment for parallax, milrad turrets (1/10 clicks), and milrad reticle. Although I am usually capable of keeping my prone groups within 4 MOA with my other rifles, I have struggled to meet that standard with this combination. Nevertheless, I decided to press on and give it a try at known distance.

Part of the reason the equipment is so important is the mounting of the scope. To obtain the correct eye position while still maintaining nose to charging handle, I had mounted the scope such that it bridged from the receiver to the quad rail. However, given my struggles with accuracy, I decided just before the weekend to move the mount back so that it was entirely on the receiver. This resulted in a constant strain throughout the weekend to keep my head back away from the scope. Of course, this causes tension and a less-than-optimal shooting platform. What may not be so obvious is that every time the rifle recoiled, I had to reposition my head. Furthermore, as the strain wore on my neck, I caught myself creeping up on the scope, resulting in shadowing around scope. Although I was meticulous about adjusting the parallax every time I changed my elevation for a new distance, I am guessing that the inconsistent head position did not do me any favors.

Speaking of position adjustments, this particular range requires that the targets be mounted fairly high due to a mild hump in the range that obscures the target when in prone. Normally, my support hand rests against the forward sling swivel. However, to get the required elevation, my hand was pulled back up the forearm away from that swivel. Whenever the rifle recoiled, my hand would slide back down the forearm and I would have to reposition it. This was really a struggle during stage three, and a minor annoyance on stage four.

Anyway, the weekend began with sighter groups at the four distances so that we could figure out our elevation adjustments. I had previously used this scope to qualify at known distance, with it mounted to a 16" AR, so I had a fairly good idea of the required adjustments. However, I went into the weekend with a 25 meter zero from a standard Appleseed, that was then negated due to my moving the scope back. I figured it would at least still be on paper and, according to a ballistics app I have on my phone, I needed to come down about 15 clicks (1.5 mils or 5.4" at 100 yards) to adjust the zero to 100 yards. So, that's what I did. The resulting group is shown below:




I am guessing that moving the scope back caused the zero to drop, resulting in the low elevation. So, measuring the group at approximately 4" low and 1" right, I came back up 11 clicks (1.1 mils or 3.96" at 100 yards) and left 3 clicks (0.3 mils or 1.08" at 100 yards). This resulted in the following:




Although the groups were far from stellar, I was pretty satisfied with my zero.

Now we moved on to the 200 yard range. Based on my previous experience, I came up 3 clicks (0.3 mils or 2.16" at 200 yards) and adjusted the parallax. The first group is below:




Again, not a great group, but I was pretty happy with its general location on the target and I kept this dope for my next group:




This one was a bit higher, but I decided to keep the 3 click adjustment anyway.

At 300 yards, I knew that I needed to come up 9 clicks (0.9 mils or 9.72" at 300 yards), but, for whatever reason, I only added 3 to the previous adjustment of 3, resulting in a low group:




I also noticed that it was pretty far off to the right. Although there was some pretty crazy, swirling wind, my other groups had seemed to be tending to the right, so, in addition to adding the 3 additional clicks to the elevation, I brought the windage over 3 clicks to the left (0.3 mils or 3.24"). This resulted in my final group of the day before the rain set in and chased us from the range:




Now it was a touch to the left, so I came back to the right 1 click (0.1 mils or 1.08" at 300 yards) before calling it a day.

Sunday began with sighters at 400 yards. Thankfully, the rain and wind were gone. My dope for 400 yards suggested a total of 16 clicks up (1.6 mils or 23.04" at 400 yards). My first group had pretty good elevation, but was a bit off to the left:




I decided to leave it alone for the second group:




This one was likewise to the left, so I came back right 1 click (0.1 mils or 1.44" at 400 yards) before shooting a third group:




Now I was over to the right. I decided I was just chasing my tail at this point, so I called it good and left it alone.

We fired our first qualification and I ended up with 38 out of 50:




Because we did not score our targets between stages, it's difficult to say from where the misses came. I do know that I was really struggling with my position, and this was especially difficult in the timed stages. I am fairly certain that the two shots to the left of his head occurred in stage 2, because that was where the cross hairs were when the shots broke. Also, a couple of my standing shots broke low. I have know idea on the rest, because I do not recall calling anything else outside of the red.

As the day wore on, I scored a 32, 27, and a 34. So, I never did make score. But it was a great learning experience nonetheless. Here are some of my takeaways:

• Moving a scope back probably causes the zero to drop
• Having the scope mounted too far back sucks
• With this combination, I am typically capable, in slow fire prone, of around 4 MOA out to 400 yards
• I need to slow down on stages 2 and 3
• Shooting rifleman with a 4 MOA rifle/ammo combination ain't as easy as shooting rifleman with a 2 MOA combination
• Dealing with terrain can be tricky
• Scope adjustments are pretty satisfying when they work as advertised
• Shooting 20 shots on stage 4 can be exhausting
• I need to practice more
• Shooting at known distance is challenging, but also very satisfying

A few thoughts that might help:

Have you run that combination off a bench to see what that specific rifle and M855 are capable of? The rifle I had at New Philly likes 62 grain open-tip, but struggles a little with M855, despite identical bullet weights. (The open-tip is 1 MOA or better from a bench - second 400yd sighter group on Sunday was 1.5 MOA prone - while M855 will do 2.5 MOA on a good day in that rifle.)

Are you focusing on the reticle? Sometimes I catch myself watching the target much too much. Devilkitty's potentially useful hint of the day: turning on illumination (if you have it) can really help draw your attention back; I've saved a few "bad days" by doing that.

I would certainly get a cantilevered scope mount so you're clamping only to the upper receiver. (The service rifle guys tell me that the Freedom Reaper mounts are solid; one of mine is in a Warne, which is pretty good too, though it doesn't go so far forward.)

Good chootin' with M855 at those distances! 

M855 It is not known for performing well past 200 yards in comparison to MK 262 which is ideal at 300 & 400 yards.   

Using all the time on Stage 2 & 3 is an advanced tip!  Patience is an AS virtue.

What are the specs on your barrel?

Pulling it all together you will make the score.

If the problem is scope placement (yes) invest in an up and forward mount. There are lots to choose from.

If the problem is ammo (maybe) placing the scope correctly will make that easier to sort out.

If the problem is the rifle (unlikely) working on the scope mount and  ammo first will make you ready to test for that.

I think you will make it, keep working, and Godspeed.

Quote from: devilkitty on June 30, 2020, 08:52:57 PM
Have you run that combination off a bench to see what that specific rifle and M855 are capable of?

I have not tested it in its current configuration. When I first got it, I got right around 4" at 100 yards from the bench using the IMI green tip. It is now free floated and has a Timney trigger. Still, with the Lake City ammo, I was not able to regularly keep five shots in a square at a regular Appleseed, something I usually do with my other rifles.

Quote from: devilkitty on June 30, 2020, 08:52:57 PM
Devilkitty's potentially useful hint of the day: turning on illumination (if you have it) can really help draw your attention back; I've saved a few "bad days" by doing that.

This scope does not have an illuminated reticle. I do, however, strive to focus on the center of the crosshairs.

Quote from: devilkitty on June 30, 2020, 08:52:57 PM
I would certainly get a cantilevered scope mount so you're clamping only to the upper receiver.

It currently has a 2" offset cantilever mount, but I need another 1". I haven't started shopping yet, but I will. I still have a knot between my shoulder blades from trying to hold back off of that scope. I also may add a slip on pad to gain an extra inch in pull.

Quote from: BillP_556 on June 30, 2020, 11:41:36 PM
What are the specs on your barrel?

It's a nitrided 20" PSA with an A2 profile, 5.56 chamber, and 1:7 twist.

A couple cantilevered scope mounts to consider are the PRI 30mm Cantilever Low Ring Set or the Geissele High Power Rifle "National Match" Scope Mount, 30mm (Long).  The Geissele is, of course, pretty pricey but unmatched in quality.  The PRI is a little more reasonably priced at $150.

https://geissele.com/super-precision-scope-mount-30mm-high-power-mount-long.html



https://www.precisionreflex.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=633988&CAT=4277



I have both. The Geissele is incredibly well built and perfect in every way.  The PRI looks great and will work fine although it lacks the extra recoil lugs and spaced apart cross bolts for an ultimately stronger mount.

Both have a 3" cantilever which will allow you to put the scope further forward than you need (always nice to not be maxing out the mount and still wish for another 1/4").  They also both put the center of the scope (30mm rings) 1.3" above the rail which is .3" lower than iron sights and most scope mounts.  That lets you get a much more stable true cheek weld than the standard height scope mounts.  I highly recommend the lower scope height.

We have A Vortex 3 inch Cantilever mount that works very well for us...

https://www.opticsplanet.com/v/cm-203-vortex-cantilever-ring-mount-for.html

Shoot a QDAQT at 25m with that rifle, scope and ammo. How does it perform? IMI is not LC855 and vice versa. Some of the LC855 being sold failed to make the grade. That doesn't mean that yours did, however. If you can't do it at 25m you won't at KD. You should be able to take your AR and shoot Rifleman on the QDAQT at least the majority of the time.

If your issues really began at 300, I would surmise that the distance itself is part of the issue. People tend to start falling to pieces at 300 and it gets worse at 400. They forget things like respiratory pause, smooth trigger, etc. So that even if they have sight alignment and sight picture, they shoot large groups.  People in this case includes instructors. You really want to FOCUS on the PROCESS of firing the shot at 300 and 400.

I once had a student ask me if I knew "how the sight is moving in an circle at 400"? The answer was no, I don't. In a slung prone position the sight should move up and down (or maybe from 7 to 1 if you are fighting a bit with the rifle and sling as you breath). When you reach respiratory pause, the gun should be still for the time that it takes you to break the shot (call it 4 to 6 second). If your position and your NPA is good, that shot will be in the center.

I have repeatedly shot KD Rifleman scores with the AR and M855. It is not as accurate as Mk262 but it is also a fraction of the price.

Quote from: St8space on June 30, 2020, 08:15:30 PM
Furthermore, as the strain wore on my neck, I caught myself creeping up on the scope, resulting in shadowing around scope. Although I was meticulous about adjusting the parallax every time I changed my elevation for a new distance, I am guessing that the inconsistent head position did not do me any favors.

In my experience shooting highpower, adjusting parallax across-the-course is more trouble than it's worth, and I'd recommend setting it for 100-200 yards and marking it with a paint pen. After forgetting to set my parallax knob to 600, my elevation zero was significantly off from the recorded value; whether that's just a vagary of the Athlon scope, I don't know, but parallax isn't going to cause this kind of gross error once you're out past 100 yards. If you struggle with consistent head position, a clear insert with a hole in the center for the end near your eye is a fantastic addition to a scope.

Quote from: St8space on June 30, 2020, 08:15:30 PM
Speaking of position adjustments, this particular range requires that the targets be mounted fairly high due to a mild hump in the range that obscures the target when in prone. Normally, my support hand rests against the forward sling swivel. However, to get the required elevation, my hand was pulled back up the forearm away from that swivel. Whenever the rifle recoiled, my hand would slide back down the forearm and I would have to reposition it. This was really a struggle during stage three, and a minor annoyance on stage four.

I didn't see anyone else address this, but it might be where your elevation misses came in. Personally, my ape index isn't high enough to shoot an A2 with my hand out at the swivel; the M1 is perfect, but the A2 is just too long. I have numbered the ribs on my A2 handguard with a paint pen, though, as a reference for my hand position so I can see if it slips between shots. The most effective way to make it stop slipping is a Picatinny rail, but it will also abuse your hand or glove. With my A2 handguard, I use a Monard shooting glove, which is fantastic but kind of expensive. Creedmoor makes a decent glove that won't slip much (way better than a bare hand), but won't last as long as a Monard.

Now, is a fancy shootin' glove required for Appleseed? Nope. You might be able to use a more radical angle to the firing line in prone and get your hand closer to that swivel as a handstop. If that doesn't work, you may need to use some controlled muscle tension; not wringing water out of the forestock, but you don't want it to slip in rapids. Neither is ideal, but might be a way to work with your equipment as-is.

What type of hand-guard or rail do you have (would you mind posting a picture of your rifle in this thread?).
I find that even when the targets aren't posted up high in relation to my firing position, I still like to be a little more propped-up in the prone. This puts less strain on my neck and lines my eye up better with my sight. This does necessitate that my support hand be further back on the fore-end. If you can't or don't want to move your forward sling swivel, you could add something closer to act as a hand-stop. Maybe another sling stud, a chopped-down VFG, or a purpose built hand-stop. You could even just put some cordage or strapping for an expedient and temporary solution. Personally, I would keep it low-profile so it wouldn't interfere with using the main sling swivel as a hand-stop when desired.

A 1:7 twist is probably too fast for 55grain, but still give it a try and record the data. I have achieved scores of over 40 with 55 grain out of a 16inch 1:8 barrel. Maybe I just got lucky.

Agreement with what everyone has said regarding the scope mount. Getting something that will give at least another inch of eye-relief will be a great improvement.

Also, what application do you use to measure your groups?

M855 - Just no. Worst stuff I've ever used. I've tried it twice from different batches but no bueno. Awful after 100 yards. All my instructor buddies say the same as we've had that discussion before. Our guess is that if the steel inserts aren't perfectly centered then havoc results. I don't use match ammo myself. It hurts to think that each squeeze is one dollar. But M855 - no. Bulk will work. I usually get mid grade stuff. LC M193 or such.

Scope offset - my first few Appleseed I had a really bad scope setup. I had to 'turtle neck' instead of 'turkey neck' and that can really throw you off. It sucked.

Trigger squeeze - really important once you're getting out to distance. Much more so than at 25m. You mentioned a 4 moa group at 100 from a bench. From a bench that's marginal. Watch that squeeze. Course ammo could be part of it too.

1:7 twist with 55 grains - works fine in my cheapo psa upper with a 16 inch barrel. There is a lot of controversy about 55 gr in a 1:7 barrel. Lots of arguments. But pros say that is because of earlier concerns that the fast twist would shed the jacket on the 55 gr. Not so true anymore with better manufacturing techniques. Anyhow from my experience the 55 works fine in my 1:7 low end barrel. And the 55 gr is usually lower cost - and I'm all about cost. I've hit 47 out of 50 at KD - and the 3 misses were only about .5 inch off. Almost had it. I'd like to hear from a few others on this subject. I trust you guys more than all of the 'pros' out there. Lots of bad info on the web.

Anyhow you're doing pretty good. You'll get there in no time at all.

I have had some significant updates planned for this thread. Alas, my range has been closed due to lead reclamation. As soon as it opens again, I have some ammo for testing, and some changes to make with the rifle. I am also registered for another KD this fall. However, the thread has come alive on its own lol. Thanks to everyone for your advice, comments, and encouragement 

Quote from: jmdavis on September 08, 2020, 06:49:49 PM
Shoot a QDAQT at 25m with that rifle, scope and ammo. How does it perform?

I have shot rifleman at 25 with a variety of rifles, including my other AR (a Colt Competition 16"). However, I have never shot rifleman with LC XM855, and I have never shot rifleman with this particular AR, including attempts with 77gr Razorcore (i.e., SMK). But, I am working on getting it there (see further on).

Quote from: jmdavis on September 08, 2020, 06:49:49 PM
IMI is not LC855 and vice versa.

While IMI does produce a version of the green tip, you are correct in that the two are significantly different, at least in my limited experience. I have gotten much better results with the IMI over the LC XM855. Unfortunately, due to the ammo shortages, the LC cast offs were all that were available at the time. So, I did the best that I could with what I had. If nothing else, it was good practice.

Quote from: jmdavis on September 08, 2020, 06:49:49 PM
If your issues really began at 300, I would surmise that the distance itself is part of the issue. People tend to start falling to pieces at 300 and it gets worse at 400. They forget things like respiratory pause, smooth trigger, etc. So that even if they have sight alignment and sight picture, they shoot large groups.  People in this case includes instructors. You really want to FOCUS on the PROCESS of firing the shot at 300 and 400.

It's difficult to say for sure, as we do not check targets between stages at KD. However, at a previous KD, when I shot rifleman with my other AR, I was able to check my stage 4 one of the times we were working in reverse order (I had to go downrange and secure a target that had blown loose, and I got a peak at it), and all of my shots were solid 5 ring hits. Furthermore, when I do struggle at 25, it is usually stage 2 that does me in, followed by stage 1 as my next worst stage.

Quote from: maxwell on September 09, 2020, 05:55:08 PM
I didn't see anyone else address this, but it might be where your elevation misses came in. Personally, my ape index isn't high enough to shoot an A2 with my hand out at the swivel; the M1 is perfect, but the A2 is just too long. I have numbered the ribs on my A2 handguard with a paint pen, though, as a reference for my hand position so I can see if it slips between shots. The most effective way to make it stop slipping is a Picatinny rail, but it will also abuse your hand or glove. With my A2 handguard, I use a Monard shooting glove, which is fantastic but kind of expensive. Creedmoor makes a decent glove that won't slip much (way better than a bare hand), but won't last as long as a Monard.

Quote from: Theokestral on September 10, 2020, 05:19:28 PM
What type of hand-guard or rail do you have (would you mind posting a picture of your rifle in this thread?).
I find that even when the targets aren't posted up high in relation to my firing position, I still like to be a little more propped-up in the prone. This puts less strain on my neck and lines my eye up better with my sight. This does necessitate that my support hand be further back on the fore-end. If you can't or don't want to move your forward sling swivel, you could add something closer to act as a hand-stop. Maybe another sling stud, a chopped-down VFG, or a purpose built hand-stop. You could even just put some cordage or strapping for an expedient and temporary solution. Personally, I would keep it low-profile so it wouldn't interfere with using the main sling swivel as a hand-stop when desired.

I have a quad rail on this rifle, so I will indeed be moving the sling swivel back and testing to find a comfortable position that also provides greater elevation. I do not have a picture of it in its current configuration, but I'll post one in the future when I get a chance to do some more testing and changes.

Quote from: Theokestral on September 10, 2020, 05:19:28 PM
A 1:7 twist is probably too fast for 55grain, but still give it a try and record the data. I have achieved scores of over 40 with 55 grain out of a 16inch 1:8 barrel. Maybe I just got lucky.

Stay tuned. This rate of twist will be changing in the near future (hint).

Quote from: Theokestral on September 10, 2020, 05:19:28 PM
Agreement with what everyone has said regarding the scope mount. Getting something that will give at least another inch of eye-relief will be a great improvement.

Quote from: scuzzy on September 10, 2020, 06:48:42 PM
Scope offset - my first few Appleseed I had a really bad scope setup. I had to 'turtle neck' instead of 'turkey neck' and that can really throw you off. It sucked.

This also will be addressed (I have a 3" offset Vortex to replace the current 2" offset Vortex mount).

Quote from: Theokestral on September 10, 2020, 05:19:28 PM
Also, what application do you use to measure your groups?

I use the free Range Buddy app on my phone (available from Google Play).

Quote from: scuzzy on September 10, 2020, 06:48:42 PM
M855 - Just no. Worst stuff I've ever used.

I agree. Nevertheless, it is what was available at the time. Ammo shortages suck.

Quote from: scuzzy on September 10, 2020, 06:48:42 PM
Anyhow you're doing pretty good. You'll get there in no time at all.

I have shot several KD rifleman scores, just not with this particular rifle. But I will definitely get there. Hopefully in October at the New Philly KD 

If you've shot rifleman already you'll do fine, just employ all the basics + the come ups, wind dope etc.and confirm zero before you go. 

.  I ran the K D course @ Puryear, Tn a couple weeks ago. It was my first K d event. Pulled off a 44/50 using a Wyndham A4 , 1-4x Vortex scope in a 3" cantilever mount, zeroed using 50 yd /200meter Santos  I B Z. Fired Privi Partizan m 193 ammo. To prevent hand slippage I use a couple turns of vet wrap under my support hand. Shooting jacket helps with comfort and lengthens pull a bit.

My worst A Q T ( and it was really bad) came when I got a call from work that took my head out of the game. Don D and I shared a laugh about "90% of this game is 50% mental". Hat tip to Yogi Berra.

Idea to prevent your hand slipping..., use a soldering iron to stipple one of the handguards*. When you want the better grip, put that one on the bottom. When you don't, put it on top.

*I would guess it would stipple. I think they are plastic now. Not actually sure.

Scuzzy I have had no problems running XM193 out to 400 yards in a 1:8 barrel.  More than good enough for KD.

State I'm sure the new mount will help.  Trying to hold your head back for a complete weekend is a recipie for pain and poor shooting.  Your practice groups would have gotten the job done, now just put it all togeather.