Project Appleseed

Can a pistol caliber rifle be used at a known distance Appleseed? If so, how much would that handicap the shooter?

There is a caliber restriction for Project Appleseed, see:  https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=55135.0

Assuming you were shooting .32 cal and below, most of the curriculum for come-ups, etc would be useless for you.  You'd have to develop your own data on that.

Quote from: EZ3 on September 28, 2019, 03:44:07 PM
There is a caliber restriction for Project Appleseed, see:  https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=55135.0

Assuming you were shooting .32 cal and below, most of the curriculum for come-ups, etc would be useless for you.  You'd have to develop your own data on that.

An argument could be made that that's for the 25 meter events because even a 9mm (35 caliber) bullet makes accurate scoring impossible on the reduced size targets.  That .35 or .40 bullet hole won't matter to scoring on full size targets.

The round's trajectory would be an issue (maybe even a safety issue or at least a range equipment damage issue) because a 9mm drop at 200 meters is measured in feet and further out gets crazy drop figures.  That would mean rounds not landing where they're supposed to and potentially damaging range equipment to skipping over a berm.

That's a really long winded way of saying I agree and people should bring rifle calibers rifles to a rifle shooting class that focuses on longer distances.  If someone wants to learn 9mm drop at 400 meters they can do that somewhere else.

Several questions are tacitly being asked here.

First, if electronic targets are being used, then none of the pistol caliber carbines will still be supersonic out to 400 yards.  Hence, electronic scoring won't work.  The reason being that shots won't register for subsonic projectiles at the target frame sensors.  Many of our KD ranges are now scored electronically.  So, for them, pistol caliber carbines are generally out of the question, since we cannot tell where the rounds are going.  Very few ranges don't have restrictions requiring all rounds must stay inside the berms.

Second, if .22 LR and similar rimfire rifles are being used, and if paper targets are being used, few rifles will have the necessary come up adjustment range.  With a good scope mounted on a 20MOA base, or more, for a few high end scopes, it will be possible.  But, one's wind reading  will become very difficult.  Shooting a .22 LR at 400 yards is roughly equivalent to shooting a center fire rifle at 4 times the distance, i.e., at 1600 yards.  Some can do it, but very few will do it well.

And, for example, I do have a Winchester Model 52 .22LR rifle with a long slide Lyman mechanical peep sight that can get out to about 440 yards.  It would work for a KD out to 400 yards with paper targets.  But, not for electronic scoring.

For centerfire pistol caliber carbines, the come ups needed will be difficult to achieve without resorting to 20 MOA and higher bases and high end scopes.  But, even if the pistol caliber carbine can reach out to 300 and 400 yards accurately, and if paper targets are being used, it is not possible to earn a patch since the maximum bullet diameter permitted is 32 caliber. The targets are sized for projectiles of 32 caliber maximum.  Most pistol caliber carbines will be 380 ACP, 45 ACP, or 9 mm, all of which are larger than 32 caliber.

Still, assuming that a rifle can be shot safely, most shoot bosses will let you "run what you brought".  You just won't be eligible to earn a KD patch if shooting anything bigger than 32 caliber.  And, if shooting electronic targets, your rounds must still be supersonic out to 400 yards to register. 

I have seen shooters show up with a 45-70.  It is capable of getting out to 1,000+ yards accurately.  But, it won't be eligible to earn a KD patch.  And, the come ups will be huge.

Talk with the Shoot Boss.  You may be able to shoot what you brought.  You just may not be eligible to earn a patch.  And, depending on the range rules, and whether electronic targets are being used, you may not be able to even shoot at urban ranges where all rounds must stay inside the berms.

â€"gb

Quote from: Octopus on September 28, 2019, 03:32:07 PM
Can a pistol caliber rifle be used at a known distance Appleseed? If so, how much would that handicap the shooter?

For a KD Appleseed?

Sure, handicap depends on caliber and projectile BC.

But, for 400 yard shooting at the large KD targets, just about anything will work, if it will get there supersonic.

I'd consider it with a pistol caliber on a whim.  But, for initial qualification,  I recommend at least an 18" AR15 in .223 with a 75 grain match projectile.

R/
Chris
Chris

Quote from: USNAVYCHIEF(Ret) on September 28, 2019, 06:51:14 PM

Quote from: Octopus on September 28, 2019, 03:32:07 PM
Can a pistol caliber rifle be used at a known distance Appleseed? If so, how much would that handicap the shooter?

For a KD Appleseed?
...
I'd consider it with a pistol caliber on a whim.  But, for initial qualification,  I recommend at least an 18" AR15 in .223 with a 75 grain match projectile.

Depends on the twist of the barrel, too.  For a 1:9 twist, 55 grains would work much, much better.  For a 1:7 twist, 75 grains would work better.  The cheap 62 grain green tips tend to open up on their group sizes in a 1:9 twist barrel starting at around 300 yards.  Beyond that, the green tips also tend to wobble. The cheap 55 grainers hold much better groups out to 400 yards in a 1:9 twist barrel.  Short answer, you always have to do testing to see what your rifle likes.  Also, match ammo is not needed for KD Qualification.   

â€"gb

I run Federal bulk XM 193, 55 gr. FMJ in a 1:8 twist without problems to 400.

I don't think just a 20 MOA setup is going to get you to 400 with a PCC.  The rainbow like trajectory will be beyond the adjustments of most optics.

Quote from: Charles McKinley on September 28, 2019, 10:21:32 PM
I run Federal bulk XM 193, 55 gr. FMJ in a 1:8 twist without problems to 400.

I don't think just a 20 MOA setup is going to get you to 400 with a PCC.  The rainbow like trajectory will be beyond the adjustments of most optics.

I concur. When subguns were deployed by major powers in WW2 they were 150 yd/meter max intended usage. Mostly far shorter.

If you don't have an AR or something in a semi auto with DBM's an ordinary hunting rifle can get you started. You may not be able to get 10 rounds off per stage but you will learn come ups and other things that will make a difference in your KD shooting experience.

Remember, this all started with rack grade standard issue rifles and ball ammo. And many have made Rifleman so equipped.

Thanks everyone for the information. Much appreciated.

Quote from: Guntuckian on September 28, 2019, 09:23:38 PM

Quote from: USNAVYCHIEF(Ret) on September 28, 2019, 06:51:14 PM

Quote from: Octopus on September 28, 2019, 03:32:07 PM
Can a pistol caliber rifle be used at a known distance Appleseed? If so, how much would that handicap the shooter?

For a KD Appleseed?
...
I'd consider it with a pistol caliber on a whim.  But, for initial qualification,  I recommend at least an 18" AR15 in .223 with a 75 grain match projectile.

Depends on the twist of the barrel, too.  For a 1:9 twist, 55 grains would work much, much better.  For a 1:7 twist, 75 grains would work better.  The cheap 62 grain green tips tend to open up on their group sizes in a 1:9 twist barrel starting at around 300 yards.  Beyond that, the green tips also tend to wobble. The cheap 55 grainers hold much better groups out to 400 yards in a 1:9 twist barrel.  Short answer, you always have to do testing to see what your rifle likes.  Also, match ammo is not needed for KD Qualification.   

â€"gb

100% this. You don't need an 18" barrel or match ammo to qualify KD.  I've seen guys do it with steel cased wolf ammo and a stock del-ton 16" carbine.  Find ammo that your rifle likes and run with it.

Quote from: Guntuckian on September 28, 2019, 09:23:38 PM

Quote from: USNAVYCHIEF(Ret) on September 28, 2019, 06:51:14 PM

Quote from: Octopus on September 28, 2019, 03:32:07 PM
Can a pistol caliber rifle be used at a known distance Appleseed? If so, how much would that handicap the shooter?

For a KD Appleseed?
...
I'd consider it with a pistol caliber on a whim.  But, for initial qualification,  I recommend at least an 18" AR15 in .223 with a 75 grain match projectile.

Depends on the twist of the barrel, too.  For a 1:9 twist, 55 grains would work much, much better.  For a 1:7 twist, 75 grains would work better.  The cheap 62 grain green tips tend to open up on their group sizes in a 1:9 twist barrel starting at around 300 yards.  Beyond that, the green tips also tend to wobble. The cheap 55 grainers hold much better groups out to 400 yards in a 1:9 twist barrel.  Short answer, you always have to do testing to see what your rifle likes.  Also, match ammo is not needed for KD Qualification.   

â€"gb

This really depends on the particular rifle.  I have an 18" barreled AR with a 223 Wylde chamber and 1:7 twist rifling that seems to shoot Federal XM 193 55 grain FMJ just fine out the 500 yards, certainly well enough to put all the rounds in the black on a KD target at 400 yards.  Of course, at longer ranges ammunition with heavier projectiles and better ballistic coefficients will have somewhat greater accuracy.  But a 1:9 twist barrel might not stabilize projectiles of 70+ grains.

QuoteFind ammo that your rifle likes and run with it.

Obviously, that is good advice. But for someone like me it reads as the cart before the horse. I am hoping to take the KD plunge soon, but I read conflicting advice regarding the specs for a rifle that would be suitable. Without a rifle, I cannot even consider ammo. Perhaps this is a topic for a different thread... but since the rifle is the high $$$ item, I am hesitant to become equipped in that area in the hopes I can find ammo that the rifle I don't yet have would like. When it comes to the AR platform, there are 100s of choices.

Pretty much any of the current ARs will do.  If it will shoot score at 25m it will do so at distance.  Appleseed KD only goes to 400 yards on a 19 by 26 (+/- on the width target.). If you do your part the rifle and ammo you choose will make little difference as long as it functions well.

Having your fundamentals down and knowing your rifle will be the most important factors.

Quote from: ArmyVet on September 29, 2019, 09:39:14 PM

QuoteFind ammo that your rifle likes and run with it.

Obviously, that is good advice. But for someone like me it reads as the cart before the horse. I am hoping to take the KD plunge soon, but I read conflicting advice regarding the specs for a rifle that would be suitable. Without a rifle, I cannot even consider ammo. Perhaps this is a topic for a different thread... but since the rifle is the high $$$ item, I am hesitant to become equipped in that area in the hopes I can find ammo that the rifle I don't yet have would like. When it comes to the AR platform, there are 100s of choices.

I completely get what you're saying- and I agree with you.  If a shooter doesn't yet have an AR, let me offer some (unsolicited) advice:  Any reputable manufacturer of ARs should do you just fine for KD. I'd wager all of them can hold at least 4MOA, and many of them can hold sub 2MOA or even hover around 1MOA. Good enough for our purposes. 1:8 barrel should stabilize the most common .223 weights.  Find an AR that you like, or better yet, build one yourself, and buy a couple boxes of ammo from different manufacturers.  Shoot them and see which one groups the best.  Easy peasy.

It's easy to get lost in the endless options of AR barrels, twist rates, etc. etc. etc.  Keep it simple.

I'll also +1 what Charles McKinley wrote. 

Quote from: ArmyVet on September 29, 2019, 09:39:14 PM
Obviously, that is good advice. But for someone like me it reads as the cart before the horse. I am hoping to take the KD plunge soon, but I read conflicting advice regarding the specs for a rifle that would be suitable. Without a rifle, I cannot even consider ammo. Perhaps this is a topic for a different thread... but since the rifle is the high $$$ item, I am hesitant to become equipped in that area in the hopes I can find ammo that the rifle I don't yet have would like. When it comes to the AR platform, there are 100s of choices.

Don't be bamboozled about the need for specific this or specific that.  Appleseed's goal is for every American to be able to use a rack-grade centerfire rifle and surplus ball ammo (cheapest stuff you used to be able to buy at Walmart) to successfully engage a man sized target out to 500 yards. 

Fundamentals are king.

We're just south of you.  If you'd like to visit God's country in Alabama  , you're welcome to join us in October or December for one of our KD events.  Loaner rifles may be available with prior coordination.  Drop me a note and let's get you squared away.

in Liberty,
MO

This was with the cheapest upper PSA has and the Hornady Freedom bulk XM193.  Look at the groups and the comment on the shingle.  It wasn't the rifle or ammo.  (Yes I made a sight adjustment between 200 and 300 on the Redcaot.)

220 on the AQT with a mag malfunction losing a round.

Unless you have a civilian M16 A1 with a 1:12 twist barrel, and are trying to shoot 62 grain or heavier projectiles through it, any AR with a barrel twist rate from 1:7 to 1:9 will stabilize 55 grain M193 FMJ just fine for the purposes of Appleseed.

Not all ballistic experts buy into the "overstabilization" theory, that too much spin will degrade accuracy, at least within 400 yards.  If you think you are ever going to be inclined to shoot out to medium or long range, you might want a barrel that can stablize projectiles heavier than 70 grains, and in that case a 1:7 or 1:8 twist rate would be preferred.  But shooters who are going out to 600 yards and beyond will also likely be using much more expensive ARs and optics.

A 1:8 twist barrel is probably the most versatile overall, and a .223 Wylde chamber also allows a bit more flexibility as well providing slightly better accuracy with lower pressured .223 ammunition but still allowing the use of 5.56x45.  But most any AR will do. 

Quote from: Charles McKinley on September 29, 2019, 10:43:07 PM
This was with the cheapest upper PSA has and the Hornady Freedom bulk XM193.  Look at the groups and the comment on the shingle.  It wasn't the rifle or ammo.  (Yes I made a sight adjustment between 200 and 300 on the Redcaot.)

220 on the AQT with a mag malfunction losing a round.

^^^THIS^^^

You don't need a custom built rifle with match ammo to do it!

I requaled this weekend with a Palmetto 20" flat top upper with a removable carry handle. Nothing floaty about that barrel. 62gr imi green tips. ITS NOT THE RIFLE, ITS THE BASICS! Now I will probably never clean a KD with this rig but thats another discussion.

Dave

Quote from: pblanc on September 30, 2019, 09:56:36 AM
Unless you have a civilian M16 A1 with a 1:12 twist barrel, and are trying to shoot 62 grain or heavier projectiles through it, any AR with a barrel twist rate from 1:7 to 1:9 will stabilize 55 grain M193 FMJ just fine for the purposes of Appleseed.

Not all ballistic experts buy into the "overstabilization" theory, that too much spin will degrade accuracy, at least within 400 yards.  If you think you are ever going to be inclined to shoot out to medium or long range, you might want a barrel that can stablize projectiles heavier than 70 grains, and in that case a 1:7 or 1:8 twist rate would be preferred.  But shooters who are going out to 600 yards and beyond will also likely be using much more expensive ARs and optics.

A 1:8 twist barrel is probably the most versatile overall, and a .223 Wylde chamber also allows a bit more flexibility as well providing slightly better accuracy with lower pressured .223 ammunition but still allowing the use of 5.56x45.  But most any AR will do.

Agreed.  The key point is most any AR will do.  You just have to be sure that the rifle fits you.  I replaced the fixed stock on a used 16-inch Bushmaster to get an adjustable stock,  put a scope on it, and then tested to see what the 1:9 twist would stabilize best.  Out to 400 yards, 55 grain was a good bit better than 62 grain.  XM193 Federal bulk from Walmart (then) vs. XM855 Federal bulk.  Done.

â€"gb

Agreed.  The key point is most any AR will do.  You just have to be sure that the rifle fits you. 

â€"gb
[/quote]

YES!  Get the rifle to fit you!  Regardless of whether or not anyone wants/desires to get into NRA or CMP HP rifle, or if your joy is Appleseed KD shooting.  Rifle fit is imperative to scoring well.

It is real difficult (but not impossible), to shoot 3 position unsupported positions with a sling, with a rifle that is not setup for FUNDAMENTAL marksmanship.

If using an AR with irons, nose to charging handle cheek weld will serve one well.

If using an AR with a scope, now we have a problem......you would still be best served with a nose to charging handle cheek weld (my right nostril houses the corner of the charging handle when firing)......the scope will need to be mounted FWD of the charging handle....likely about 1.5 inches FWD to have an ideal setup.

1.3" should be the ideal height for the center of the optic to the rail.  This will keep your cheek planted on the rifle.

Since this is Appleseed KD, and only speaking of the AR....you can get away with some stuff.  Like, if your scope is mounted too high, you can use a buttstock with an adjustable cheek riser!  *Or that pool foam stuff*

The key to accuracy with the AR and 3 position shooting....is to not be bobbing or prarie dogging your head on the stock at all....to get sight picture.

I'd advise that you do whatever you can to avoid the above (prarie dogging).

To test for prarie dogging....it is the same way we check NPA.  Address rifle, Close eyes, mount rifle, breathe, relax, open eyes....NOW is the check

Did you bob your head even the slightest to get sight pic?  If you did, that is an issue.

Ideally, especially with a scope, when I open my eyes, I want an IMMEDIATE, CRYSTAL CLEAR and CRISP sight picture.  Nothing less than that is acceptable for accurate shooting.

Sort of like my rifle in my profile pic.

But....it can most definitely be done (KD) with a qualifying score with prarie dogging.....provided the prarie dogging is consistent and repeatable.

FWIW

Agreed, rifle fit is very important.

I have worn bi-focals since forth grade and am a confirmed optics shooter.  I use nose to charging handle.