Project Appleseed

this rifle has been my project on and off this year but I was getting frustrated finding a load for it.

I am 305 rounds in to shooting with 3 brands of factory and 3 different bullets in the reloads and looking for a load and I can see what I think is my issue the action is clearly moving in the stock it is wearing the finish on the pillars and the action.

the groups aren't horrible by what most would consider hunting rifle standards but they tend to be in any 5 shot group it actually looks like 2 different groups one right at point of aim and one group high.
often 3 touching then 2 touching in the other location and it has been fairly consistent.

it does it with factory and my reloads the reloads seem to be producing 2 very tight but very separate groups all with the same point of aim

it also has done it with book starting to 1/2 gr under max and every thing I tried in-between with only very slight variation.

if I really torque down the actions screws it will be better for a group or 2 but then opens back up to what seems to be 2 different groups in the same locations

and it did it shot from sand bags , sling or bipod .

what I think this is all telling me is , I have moment of the action in the stock and it is effecting my groups.

what I think is the fix , epoxy bed the action in the stock.

with the action screws loosened even just a little the front to back slide was about 1/16 of an inch with minimal pressure.

the first step was removing the trigger , and bolt release , I also removed the optic  to get it out of the way.

in my search thus far I had checked all my optic mounting was tight , i had actually broken a scope mounting screw on the factory mounts trying to get it tighter , but changed to a EWG rail so that I could get the scope mounted farther forward because I couldn't get a good goose neck and drop in prone with the scope as far forward as the factory mounts would allow.

I also had done some work on me , making sure I had the same hold , the same pull back into my shoulder that I wasn't flinching that I had good trigger control.
as best I can tell it is not me.

with all the hardware removed any holes were filled with plumbers putty , leaving only the 2 action screw holes unplugged

painters tape applied to the stock to reduced clean up from squeeze out.

a plumbers putty dam set up a few inches forward of the action , it wasn't really necessary with the volume of epoxy I used  but a simple thing to do.

easier to over prepare than to try and fix it later

plumbers putty to keep the magazine well area from getting epoxy in it  and in the trigger cavity also

epoxy that squeezes on the plumbers putty is fairly easily removed with a knife

tape on the bottom and front edges of the recoil lug this process is all about locking that recoil lug from moving but it needs to be able to move out and in for the assembly and disassembly of the rifle for cleaning.

the rear of the recoil lug is where you are trying to get zero clearance

after test fitting a generousness application of Johnson's paste wax is applied to the action and barrel , I used a tooth brush which worked well to get in all everywhere this is the release agent that keeps the epoxy from permanently gluing the action into the stock.

(I tested this hole process on an old bolt action shotgun I got for free that is non functional that I use to test things on before doing it on my good gun)

with all the prep done it was time to mix

Devcon brand plastic steel epoxy is what I used

I could have just as well used JB weld from the hardware store I expect it would work just fine I have heard of others using it but Devcon is what Midway USA sells for bedding actions and it had very good reviews so for the 2 dollars more I just went with it.

equal parts for this 2 part epoxy , mix well then 60 minutes working time 6 hour set at room temp and complete cure in 24 hours.

a paper plate and craft sticks AKA new clean Popsicle sticks , these are very handy for a lot of glue and epoxy mixing tasks

work the epoxy down into the recoil lug recess that is where you need to insure it is full and squeezes out around the lug and action for a zero clearance fit.

when you set the action in the stock , only lightly snug the action screws don't torque them .

then rubbing alcohol and paper towel and q-tips to clean up any squeeze out .

Nice job Pete! looks like it is going to turn out great.

I did sand the places I wanted the epoxy to bond to on the stock , and clean with rubbing alcohol before all the taping off and plumbers putty.


in the morning loosen the actions screws and remove , then lift up and rock the actin side to side and it pulled up with out to much effort but it was rocking out of the recoil lug recess , it is tight , before I could just set the action in the stock and it dropped right in , now it takes a squeeze once is lined up

the front came out well , I lost the tape it is bonded to the epoxy but released from the metal so not an issue to me but better tape on the recoil lug for the next epoxy bed job I do this was Frog tape painters tape.

in the rear I could have used a little more epoxy, I though I had used a generous amount but that just speaks to how much free space I had back there I have a shelf and good engagement but at some point I may add more for greater engagement.

now after placing the action in the stock and pressing it in it is tight no movement front to back even before the action screws are installed  this is what I was looking for

cleaned all the putty out cleaned up a little of the epoxy that flowed over the putty , cleaned the action and put it all back together , ready to shoot after the 24 hours is up.

I will hopefully get out and see how it shoots this weekend .

Quote from: glocker21 on September 28, 2018, 11:57:23 AM
Nice job Pete! looks like it is going to turn out great.

thanks , the proof will be in the pudding

I have about 20 of the 165gr BTSP bullet I got the tightest groups with and some new 180gr BTSP  by the same manufacturer and get out and shoot.

this is an example of a before target  that is a 3 inch diamond point to point the red dot is the point of aim , the scope has since been adjusted and rounds will hit that point of aim but the other approximately half of the group will still go the same distance up and over varying only slightly

a bunch of very similar variations of this for the other targets the distance between generally just about the same

which is 2 inches approximately , I know a lot of people would say thats a dead deer , but my goal is to take this gun to 880 yards this year farthest place I have to shoot so I want it to do better.

I bought this gun as a budget entry gun trainer to long range shooting , if I get this worked out to 880 I will have to figure out where longer is going to be.

I could have gone 6.5 creedmore and I thought very hard on that but I heard something from a NRA instructor , who shoots 50 cal matches at 1500 yards , he trains on 308 because you can learn more from it than you will a "super cartridge" about reading the wind and at shorter range than with one of the "super cartridges" and that  registered with me because of all the lessons we can teach in 22 rim-fire Silhouettes on a 100 meter range. also 308 should enjoy longer barrel life than a hotrod cartridge. so I can spend less on barrels and more on ammo.

All in all a very nice write up. You pretty much do everything I do. I have used both the Devcon 10110 and the JB Weld Pro Steel and they both work equally well. As you noted, preparation and not rushing is critical.

I was setting up running and cleaning up an air rifle shoot most of the day but I got a little time after it was all cleaned up to shoot the 7.62MVP-Varmint

with 3 different bullets on 4 groups I shot nothing was over 1 1/4 inch  with 1 called flier

my son shot the first group , he had 2 called fliers then he got his rest set up well and he went 3 shots at right about a half inch.

I am perfectly willing to call most of this me tired at the end of the day , and loosing light. it is much better than it was today my average group was as better than my best ever groups pre-bedding.

before I left I backed up to 200 yards and shot some steel I had just painted , no picture but it looked just one spot of splash through the scope for 4 rounds

you may also notice the addition  of a muzzle break , that was to good of a deal to pass on 19.99 at midway on sale I figured from the positive reviews it was worth a try you can now spot your own shots through the scope definitely reduced felt recoil and muzzle climb. I didn't notice any increase in noise nor did my son it was already loud.

Nice job! do you think that you shoot better now that you have finished the bedding job or do you think that it will be a time will tell sort of thing? When I started doing my own bedding I found myself not using good shooting technique meaning, I was looking for immediate results. Once I allowed myself to calm down a bit and let my rifle settle in I found that my groups out of the rifle and m,y groups from my shooter perspective improved. I also found that I needed to adjust my trigger to give myself a little more heavy trigger pull for consistency sake.

the gun is definitely making better groups after the bedding job , even just running the bolt it felt a little different , I think it was moving slightly as I ran the bolt forward and back.

I was already tired when I shot these it was the end of a long day.

each group is all in one spot and not two groups 2 inches apart   , I think the rifle will do better when I have a load all squared away , that was 3 different bullets there were Speer 165 , sierra 165 and hornady 168.

I was playing with my zero between groups which is why they are not all in the same location on each target my goal is to have point of aim at the bottom of that 2 1/2 in diamond and the group right at the top of the point 2.5 inches high at 100 yards should equal a 218 yard zero aka 200 meter zero  which seems like an ideal place to zero.

a few rounds on steel at 200 yards confirms that it is very close already

I will run more groups find the load that I will run with , I like one load using a bullet that I can hunt with also.

now that I think the rifle is stable I can start working other variables out

unfortunately the bullet I wanted to use is now out of stock everywhere so I have 2 more to try and see what it likes but it seems fairly similar with these 3  so it may be just seeing what is going to be regularly available at a decent price and stocking up.

Quote from: TrapperPete on October 01, 2018, 03:06:20 PM
the gun is definitely making better groups after the bedding job , even just running the bolt it felt a little different , I think it was moving slightly as I ran the bolt forward and back.

I was already tired when I shot these it was the end of a long day.

each group is all in one spot and not two groups 2 inches apart   , I think the rifle will do better when I have a load all squared away , that was 3 different bullets there were Speer 165 , sierra 165 and hornady 168.

I was playing with my zero between groups which is why they are not all in the same location on each target my goal is to have point of aim at the bottom of that 2 1/2 in diamond and the group right at the top of the point 2.5 inches high at 100 yards should equal a 218 yard zero aka 200 meter zero  which seems like an ideal place to zero.

a few rounds on steel at 200 yards confirms that it is very close already

I will run more groups find the load that I will run with , I like one load using a bullet that I can hunt with also.

now that I think the rifle is stable I can start working other variables out

unfortunately the bullet I wanted to use is now out of stock everywhere so I have 2 more to try and see what it likes but it seems fairly similar with these 3  so it may be just seeing what is going to be regularly available at a decent price and stocking up.

What bullet are you looking for? I have several 165, 168, and 178gr laying around I would be willing to part with.

the 165gr speer BTSP #2034 was what I was hoping to find more of they shot well and I was getting them for 20 dollars a hundred  which I liked

I have enough others to try for now hopefully they come back in stock

I picked up some 180 speer BTSP #2052 and I like the trajectory numbers on them better for getting to the full range of the 308 I hope they shoot as well as the 165gr did  I think they are running about 23 dollars a hundred.

I try and keep my reloading costs down right now I am running just over 40 cents a round on the 308 with the speer bullets  there are plenty of other bullets but it drives cost up

the gun seems to be shooting Hornady and Sierra nearly as well and well enough for my goals

I will see what I have and let you know

Quote from: TrapperPete on September 28, 2018, 12:17:31 PM
I lost the tape it is bonded to the epoxy but released from the metal so not an issue to me but better tape on the recoil lug for the next epoxy bed job I do this was Frog tape painters tape.

We use a heavy furniture wax to keep bedding from sticking to stuff. Put on your tape, then coat it in the furniture wax nice and heavy, then bed it. You can use that wax anywhere you don't want bedding epoxy to stick.

That what we use here in our Gunshop.


Just my $0.02, YMMV, Offer not valid in California or New York.

BandAid

Quote from: Mike AKA Bandaid on October 01, 2018, 06:56:51 PM

Quote from: TrapperPete on September 28, 2018, 12:17:31 PM
I lost the tape it is bonded to the epoxy but released from the metal so not an issue to me but better tape on the recoil lug for the next epoxy bed job I do this was Frog tape painters tape.

We use a heavy furniture wax to keep bedding from sticking to stuff. Put on your tape, then coat it in the furniture wax nice and heavy, then bed it. You can use that wax anywhere you don't want bedding epoxy to stick.

That what we use here in our Gunshop.


Just my $0.02, YMMV, Offer not valid in California or New York.

BandAid

That method works for me as well.

I think the issue was I started coating the metal in Johnson's paste wax then remembered I needed to tape the lug and cleaned the wax off the lug , then taped then re-waxed over the tape.

I should have alcohol cleaned the lug then taped then waxed rather than just wiping the wax off with a clean rag.

the frog tape is also the 21 day safe release so a stronger adhesive tape might also be in order.