Project Appleseed

I've been thinking about getting into reloading for a while now, but always put it off for one reason excuse or another. Being asked by a few Appleseeders why I don't reload got me to start reading a few months ago. My wonderful wife got my a Hornady reloading manual for Christmas. Been trying to soak up anything and everything I can get my hands on. I understand what all the options on the table are as far as equipment goes, but not knowing what my preferences will be until I actually start reloading, I'm not certain on what to do as far as case prep equipment/procedure, record keeping, and round storage/organization.

Was hoping to hear some of your suggestions/experiences in these areas. Seems most of what I've read glosses over some of this stuff. I'd rather go the 'buy once, cry once' route than start accumulating equipment I won't use.

Also, I'll be making a reloading bench and setting up in my garage. Any issues with storing powder in a high heat/high humidity area? The FL summers are brutal, and my garage faces East, so its typically much hotter in my garage than it is outside.

The solutions don't need to be fancy. You need a notebook to store your load data.Plastic ammunition boxes are relatively cheap online, but you can make ziplocks work. The RCBS Master kit has a Rock chucker press, trimmer, powder measure, case lube pad, and hand primer. You would need to add a set of calipers (I prefer the dial type rather than digital) and a vibratory tumbler with media. That setup will get you a lot of reloading at a very reasonable price for both pistol and rifle.  You never really outgrow a single stage press.

You get what you pay for when you buy reloading gear, trust me - I know. If you load in bulk, get a progressive press and don't be shocked when all the stuff you need ends up to be a cool grand or more when you're all done buying. If you are a patient guy and want to meticulously load a single round at a time a single stage press starter kit will do you just fine. For case prep buy a machine, doing thousands of cases by hand is no fun unless you have a LOT of spare time. I believe Frankfort Arsenal makes an affordable case prep machine for about 100 or so bucks. I live in Florida too and I prefer to keep my powder and primers inside the AC in their own separate safe - the garage gets awful hot and humid in the summer. Start with published loads in your manual on the low end of powder requirements and work your way up from there as you test to find the optimal load for each of your rifles. Buying a chrono and measuring speeds will help you immensely while you work up your bullet / powder recipes. You'll soon find that the actual loading process is quick and easy, its the brass prep that will take some time. I'm up in St Augustine and will be happy to talk anytime about reloading.


BC 

I got some great advice early on. I had long before begun collecting brass, knowing that someday I would reload. I was told to read the books carefully and learn all about it first. When I got my first press I was to do it all perfectly and by the book. Once I had it all perfected, I should look for which steps I could skip to make it faster. That worked well for me. I load in bulk and always to mil-spec velocities.

I got a Dillon 550 at an estate sale and got a local pro to set it up for me initially. I gradually learnt that unless you have a great deal of experience, it's best to buy all Dillon. Every time I failed to do so I have been disappointed in  the quality and function. The 550 can be used as a single stage or progresive, but lacks auto-indexing, which IMO can be problematic, especially for rifle rounds.

The case prep is the tedious part and it is made a little better with the right gear and procedures. One of the best purchases I ever made (and oddly not Dillon) was a Garard trimmer. It's spendy, but works like a pencil sharpener - very fast. It trims and chamfers inside and out all in a single operation, indexing from the case shoulder (bottle neck rounds only).

I always perform a visual check on every round after completion for powder and primer - shake them for powder next to my ear and look at the primer to make sure it is there and properly seated. Every time I run out of a lot of powder, I re-run the "ladder" testing to assure safe pressure, velocity and accuracy and I always use a chronograph.

Savage, be warned, it is an addictive hobby! I started with the RCBS Master Kit and added a case trimmer, powder trickler, and a pocket swager for military brass (I load a lot of 5.56 and 7.62). Powder storage is typically regulated by your local fire department or your home owners inurance but hot and humid is not a good thing simply because it causes the powder to deteriorate at a much faster rate. Keep in mind that if you are only loading for a couple of calibers you won't have a lot on hand at any time and that can be stored in the house until needed.

Record keeping is actually simple, a 3 ring binder with home printed sheets where you list the load particulars so you can repeat the load later and the date you load it. I track Bullet by weight and manufacturer, Powder by number and Manufacturer, Case by Manufacturer, and Primer. Using this data I can determine what each of my rifles like best and load more of it as I get the components.  I have found that I don't really save a great deal of money per round but what I get is Match Grade ammo at bulk Milsurp prices.

I'm going to suggest that you check out "The Handloaders Bench" website (handloadersbench.com) for all the information you could possibly use and probably the best handloading site on the net. Enjoy your new obsession!

jmdavis, I've seen some comments on vibratory tumblers not doing as good a job at cleaning as an ultrasonic cleaner, and some comment the opposite. Sounds like you use a vibratory tumbler.... have you had to do any additional cleaning after pulling the cases out of the tumbler? Do you deprime before tumbling, or deprime after? Any preference on media type?

B.C., I'm a very patient person, but I have a severe lack of time with 3 kids and working 6 days a week. I was leaning on getting a progressive press for this reason, and using it as a single stage initially until I feel comfortable. I'm not comfortable with cutting corners in anything I do, but I do want to be efficient wherever possible. Sounds like the powder and primers will be staying inside under A/C then.

PHenry, I've seen tons of recommendations on Dillon presses. Whats scared me is that most of the primer tube detonation incidents I've read about have occurred on Dillon machines. I don't know if it has to do with their design, or if its just a numbers game where most of the heavy volume reloaders use a Dillon. I had not thought of shaking the cartridges to hear the powder charge, but I was thinking of setting each completed cartridge on a scale to verify I didn't load one without powder.

Dracomeister, I grew up tinkering with cars and building engines. I work in the automotive industry with sports cars, and the kind of money it takes to play around with performance cars today just keeps climbing fast. I haven't spent any money on my Camaro in years, but if reloading and shooting eats up my time, I'll be happy and saving money while I'm at it.  I like that home printed sheet idea, I'll give that a try. I'll bookmark that website to look over, I had not run into it before.

When picking the first powder to start with, do you guys try to pick something that can be used for multiple calibers, or do you go about it differently? For example, I have rifles chambered in .223, .308, 30-06, and .303 British. IMR4895 is listed in the tables for all except .303. Would that be the way to start with the first powder purchase?

Quote from: Savage22 on December 28, 2017, 01:54:52 PM

Was hoping to hear some of your suggestions/experiences in these areas. Seems most of what I've read glosses over some of this stuff. I'd rather go the 'buy once, cry once' route than start accumulating equipment I won't use.

Considering that you have a Hornady reload manual, you have your most important piece of equipment.
Here are a few more big pearls of wisdom;

1) Buy a good case lube and use it or get proficient at drilling and tapping the primer pockets of a stuck brass for extraction

2) Buy a good case gauge.  I was using one made by Lyman and it told me my loads were good.  The rifle's chamber said otherwise.  I now use only Hornady case gauges and no problems since.

3) Make sure the case is resized to spec

I use the Hornady Lock and Load single stage press.  I have dies for .30-06, Winchester 308, 300 AAC (most used), and 5.56x45 (never used because all .223 or 5.56x45 brass becomes 300 AAC at my house), and 45 ACP.

I would not worry about making the cases "pretty" with walnut media.  I have reloaded plenty of old 308 or 30-06 cases that lost their luster a long time ago.  Think of it this way, polishing a brass material is simply knocking the protective oxide layer off of the case to make it pretty.  Ugly/pretty brass is all the same to me.

Buy a cam bullet puller rather than that stupid hammer thing to pull bullets from a bad reloading run.

You asked about powder storage in the first post. In your hot garage storing powder in a refrigerator is an option you might want to consider.
4895 is a very verasitle powder. But in the 60 some years since it's formulation chemistery has marched forward. In my personal experience the only powder that has started decomposing while stored in my possession is 4895.
I like RL-15 for heavy bullet .223 semi auto loads.

Get a single stage press. Then if you feel the need get a progressive, having both mounted on your bench is well worth the space they take up.
You cant go wrong with quality tools from RCBS, Dillon, Hornady. Lee makes some great stuff, the dies, hand held priming tool, and classic cast press are excellent, but I would not get one of their progressive presses.
I have had the primer chain explosion in a Dillon 650. The incident was my fault, the press design saved me from bloodshed, and I still use the 650. But If I could have a do over, would get the 550.
Have been reloading since 1973, (sarcasm start) I'm sure to start saving money on ammo soon!

Save money by reloading!!

No, not really.

Instead you will spend your reloading budget on reloading components, and make match grade ammo for less than the cost of plinking ammo.

Start with a single stage press, and like said above you will likely keep it on your bench even after you acquire a progressive.

Most long time reloaders have a color preference for their equipment, I like blue (Dillon) and green (RCBS) and I avoid one of the red's (lee).

Savage 22,
Some time ago I decided I just wanted to use only two powders. After studying several reloading manuals I decided that IMR4064 would work with all my rifles (.223, .308 and 30-06); and Bullseye with my handguns (9mm, .38 and .45). It would be easy to argue that there are better choices, but the ones I mentioned work for me and greatly simplifies my life. Only two bottles of powder in my reloading space.
aj

I'd say that you need to figure out what your goal is with reloading. Match ammo? If so, for what calibers, and how much? I shoot a 50 or 80 round national match course every month, and a Lee turret is fine for that volume in .223 or .30-06.
If it's just a capability you want to have for occasional use (or when ammo becomes unavailable), anything will work. If you're cranking out 10k rounds a month for pistol practice, like one of my co-workers, you'd better have a progressive.

Quote from: Savage22 on December 28, 2017, 10:36:32 PM
When picking the first powder to start with, do you guys try to pick something that can be used for multiple calibers, or do you go about it differently? For example, I have rifles chambered in .223, .308, 30-06, and .303 British. IMR4895 is listed in the tables for all except .303. Would that be the way to start with the first powder purchase?

For oddball calibers like 7.5 Swiss or .303 Brit that I don't shoot much, I don't mind keeping extra powders around. If I could start over, I'd go with H4895 for everything that would shoot it.

Quote from: Savage22 on December 28, 2017, 10:36:32 PM
jmdavis, I've seen some comments on vibratory tumblers not doing as good a job at cleaning as an ultrasonic cleaner, and some comment the opposite. Sounds like you use a vibratory tumbler.... have you had to do any additional cleaning after pulling the cases out of the tumbler? Do you deprime before tumbling, or deprime after? Any preference on media type?

I have used vibratory, ultrasonic and wet cleaning. Wet tumbling withnstainless media does the best. But I don't think that it makes sense for small batches. Ultrasonic didn't work for me, but walnut shells orbcorncob in the vibratory works great. I deprive First for wet tumbling, I do not deprive for dry tumbling.

Wh n I am processing brass I am generally doing 1k-3k of 45 or 1k-3k of .223 at a time. I can run 500-750 at a time in my wet tumbler compared to 300 in my dry tumbler. A run with the websystem takes 2 hours or for really nasty brass one hour in dawn with no media and some lemshine followed we'd by two hours in carwash soap with lemishine. Dry tumbling takes 5  hours or so.

Thanks for all the replies guys.... its much appreciated.

Mutant Texan..... what would you suggest for case lube? I've seen lots of folks are using Unique or One Shot. As far as the bullet puller, is there a specific problem with the hammer type pullers? Just curious.

Mark Davis, what caused the primer chain explosion in your case?

Maxwell, at this point in my life, I don't do any benchrest or long range shooting. Plinking ammo fits my needs currently. However, I do have an interest in long range shooting, and I would like to get involved in competition in one form or another. Whether that is 3 Gun, Action Rifle, CMP matches, or something else, I don't know. I intend to try a few and see what I like most.

jmdavis, when you wet tumble, what do you do to get the brass dry?

Allow me to volunteer some answers.

Case lube: I use "Imperial Sizing Die Wax". Only on rifle bottleneck cases. For handguns, I use exclusively carbide dies (no need to lube the cases).

Wet tumbling: I don't do it, but if I were to do it I would dry the cases in a food dehydrator or an oven at a very low temperature.

Primer chain explosion: I've never seen or heard of one until now, My best guess is that it happened on a Dillon press with the auto priming system. On my Dillon, you charge a tube that is used to transfer the primers from wherever you store them to the actual auto priming mechanism. On the auto priming mechanism the primers are loaded "facing down", meaning that on the transfer tube they are facing up; up being the flat spot that's hit by the firing pin. Then a plastic rod is inserted to keep positive pressure down on the primers. The factory rod is plastic but it stands to reason that if a metal rod were to be substituted, it could technically ignite the top primer and then the domino effect. I know of at least one company that sells a metal (aluminum) rod as an aftermarket item.

aj

I highly recommend starting with a single stage press setup.  A used RCBS Rockchucker is ideal.  The reason is to learn all the details at an appropriate pace, while avoiding the elephant dung problem.  That is, you don't want a big pile of problems.  Once you have read the books at least 3 times, Lyman is especially good, you are ready to load your first 20 rifle rounds or 50 pistol rounds, and test.  Rinse and repeat.

Then, if you want accuracy over just function, you then start working up accurate loads for YOUR rifle or pistol.  But, you will always still use a single stage press for odd lots of ammo and also when working up new loads or for handloading  odd ball rifles and pistols.

Then, when your needs for larger numbers of ammo become evident, you already have loads worked up.  Then, you add a progressive press.  Green, Blue, or Red, it really comes down to personal preference.  RCBS, Dillon, and Hornady are all good.

I can load about 100 rounds of precision rifle ammo in 2 hours with a single stage press. 

Carbide dies let you avoid having to lube each pistol case.  I can load 100 pistol rounds an hour with a single stage press, using carbide dies.

Then, there are full length vs. necksizing options to consider for rifles.  Semi-autos typically need full length resizing, for good operation.

Hot weather ammo vs. cold weather ammo factors in, too, on selecting both powder grains and primers.  For cold weather rifle magnum loads, you always need magnum primers.  But, for hot weather magnum rifle loads, non-magnum primers are often a better choice.

I keep a detailed set of logbooks, for all loads. 

I reload for  rifle, pistol, and shotgun.  I started with rifle, added pistol, and then added shotgun.  I then added lead casting, and started casting bullets and then added shotgun slugs.  Then, I added wildcat rounds and custom special purpose ammo that is not commercially available.

The used RCBS setup I initially bought for $250 on Craigslist came with 10 sets of dies, and included all the tools for common pistol and rifle reloading.  I have since added a swage. And bullet sizing and lubing capability separately.  And a 12 gauge press.  And bullet molds for modern rifle, pistol, shotgun slugs,  black powder pistols and muskets and rifles.  And, I fire form wildcat cases, too.

As for powders, I try to stick to using IMR4895, 2400, 4031, Unique, and RedDot.  But,  I do like Vihtavuori for long range, beyond 1000 yards.

Reloading doesn't save you money.  But, it does reduce the cost of ammo, and allows you to shoot more, and to keep old firearms in use when factory ammo is no longer available.

Reloading trays allow you to inspect for squib loads or double load errors.  Choosing powders that fill 70% or preferably more of the case prevents double loading and improves accuracy.

You have to be detail oriented.  If not, reloading can be dangerous.  But, when the ammo shortage hit, I was able to continue when non-reloading friends were out of luck.

-- gb

Here is your answer Savage22.
https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=52711.0

Tons of great info here.... thanks for all the help.

Next steps for me are to pickup a couple more books, continue reading, and build a reloading bench.

When you build your reloading bench, make it heavy and really strong. Overkill is what you are looking for. A wobbly bench will give you much frustration. (Ask me how I know...)

I ran across this page, which has some good info on reloading: http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2k_reloading.htm

Quote from: Savage22 on January 01, 2018, 10:17:11 PM
Thanks for all the replies guys.... its much appreciated.

Mutant Texan..... what would you suggest for case lube? I've seen lots of folks are using Unique or One Shot. As far as the bullet puller, is there a specific problem with the hammer type pullers? Just curious.

I like the cam system because I can extract a bullet from a case with a reloading press in a slow methodical way.  I have only done this for cases that don't pass the case gauge test.  I will take the recapping pin out of a resizing die and simply run the case with the powder and primer inside.  You can then reseat the bullet and move one.  The cam system does not harm the bullet and allows you to press it back in. 

The hammer method just will aggravate you wile trying to pound the bullet out.  The amount of aggression is proportional to the amount of crimp that you put in.

Reloading does lower the cost of ammo for me.  I can't afford to shoot factory made 300 AAC.  I can however afford to use a common bullet caliber like a .308" to make my own ammo.  I can ever get the cases for free.  In the end, I am trading my time for saving money on ammunition.  You can also get a much larger spectrum of loads.

S22,

My 2 cents on savings. I'm not a volume reloader. Using that as a starting point, you never really save anything. Why? It took me about 2 years, to "break even" after I factored the cost of the equipment (press, dies, etc) to the cost of the components (powder, primers, bullets). Then you'll probably covet other gear (neck turning equipment, chronometer, etc). It's really a slippery slope.

Why I continue reloading? Flexibility. In the recent past when it was easier to find hen's teeth than ammo, I always had something to shoot. Also, now (not when I started) I like to think that my reloads are as good as expensive match ammo.

Consider that you'll be trading trigger time for reloading bench time; is that acceptable to you?

Anyway, begin at the bottom and upgrade as you need to. I began with a Lee Classic single stage press and RCBS dies (you'll also need a means to measure and dispense powder). That was my kit for about 3 years. I still have the press but use it mostly to deprime brass.

Regrets, none.

aj