Project Appleseed

Where does your finger intersect with the trigger blade?

Prior to AS and during for quite some time, my trigger squeeze was very easy to describe.  Some may even have heard me inject humor as to how to remember where and how I placed my finger on the blade.   I was always taught that on my index finger there is a simple indicator one can use.  The finger nail on the back side of the finger. I was taught to place the finger on the blade at the exact point where the finger nail ends.  Pretty much the 1/2 way point of the first pad/digit.

That worked, and for some disciplines that is what they do.  I have learned since that there is a better way.  I have also learned since that my way was AWFUL!  LOL

It all started when my GRIP was fixed.   When I was using a weak grip, it was easy for my finger to be manipulated in a way to only use 1/2 of the first pad when executing the squeeze.

After dabbling in bullseye pistol (and I mean dabble....not a pistol guy yet) I learned a ton about trigger squeeze.  Namely to squeeze the trigger while maintaining sight alignment.   Sounds simple enough right?

It translates exactly the same to the Rifle.  Squeeze the trigger without disturbing sight alignment.

Using a HIGH grip on the rifle, I found that now my finger had gotten significantly longer and it was difficult for me to do what I was doing with 1/2 of the first pad.

Now I am squeezing my trigger using the second digit "joint".  It feels more comfortable and it is a repeatable squeeze, well....repeatable enough for rifle. 

But why?  Why is it more repeatable?

A few weeks ago I was down at Camp Butner for a match and got to see a few friends I only see a couple times a year.  One of those guys is named Eric Herrin.  He has been featured in several CMP newsletters, as he is a phenomenal pistol shooter!  Double distinguished with the .22 and the service pistol.

Eric and I chat a LOT!  Eric started his marksmanship journey with smallbore rifle and the pistol.   He started his competitive rifle journey the same day and match I did, so we have become great friends.

He and I were discussing trigger control, and the first digit PAD thing came up.  Eric I feel NAILED the explanation I was looking for, as in why should we not use the pad.

The pad, if you think about it is a muscle/meat of some sort.  It is not repeatable, because there is movement.  It is almost like trying to squeeze the trigger with a water bed!  Absurd sounding example, but....I want to illustrate the point here.

Just as in our steady hold factors, we preach skeletal support.  Bones support, muscles weaken and fail.

Same with the trigger squeeze.  Why use a muscle, when there is a joint there that is more repeatable.

SO....that is that.

Only speaking of the AR15 here.  I know from experience on wood rifles my finger lies differently, due to the different grip.  Same with my 10/22.  It is surely not on the second joint, but I am able to use the first joint on those rifles.

My friend Eric did mention that some small bore shooters use the pad.....but the triggers are measured in ounces, different discipline.

On my AR10, when shooting supported prone off a bipod.....position is a lot different as is the aftermarket grip I use.  Also the blade of trigger (Geissele SD-E) is a straight blade, which invites itself more to the "pad" thing.  I dunno, haven't shot that rifle in over a year, since learning what I learned about the finger position on trigger. 

Interested in anyone's thoughts on the trigger finger placement.

R/
Chris

I never came clean before because I didn't want to be accused of slaying a sacred cow. I agree with Chris. I never had the benefit of chatting with high caliber shooters about this, but eventually I happened on it. I too use a joint instead of the pad.

The only thing I can add, is that finger placement is probably driven by the shooter's hand size. I also grab the pistol grip as high as I can go. In my case I'm on the small size, so I use the first joint (the first joint looking from the fingertip towards the hand). It does give me a stronger/smoother trigger squeeze regardless of whether the rifle in question has a single stage or double stage trigger.

I also do this with my bolt action rifles.

I know that this is not what is generally accepted, but it works for me. I'm not willing to sacrifice a good shot on a deer or on a paper target just to be schoolhouse correct.

Very nice topic.

AJ

Quote from: airplanejoe on November 08, 2017, 06:38:14 PM
The only thing I can add, is that finger placement is probably driven by the shooter's hand size...

...and grip shape, angle and size. 

An A2 grip finger position will be different than a BCM Mod 3 grip (my favorite with a straighter grip angle and larger grip) which will be a whole lot different than a 10/22 which will be different than an M1.

Telling a 12 year old to address a 10/22 trigger the same way a grown man addresses a Garand trigger will not work any more than telling a petite woman using a .22LR AR to place her finger the same way.

My method of instruction for that is to demonstrate some different finger and hand positions and explain that the goal is to complete the trigger press with the finger moving straight back.  I always emphasize that like the body position relative to the target line each shooter's final grip will depend on their fit to the rifle.
There is not one size fits all approach because we're not all one size and neither are our rifles.

Here are two great videos that address trigger finger placement and mechanics made by extremely experienced professional instructors in the combat side of things.

First is by a guy who goes by "Surf" on a number of forums including pistol-forum.com where I learn more than I knew existed about the art of defensive pistol craft.
Here's his post in a discussion about this subject on that forum.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13420-Trigger-finger-placement&p=252554&viewfull=1#post252554

Surf's almost 30 minute video below goes into excruciating detail about proper finger placement.  He's pretty wordy.  You can skip to 9:00 to watch a simple diagram explanation of his take on this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6-eJTS_5qg

The video is one left over from an old training channel he deleted but was saved by a fan.  It is published with Surf's permission.  Here's his Bio.

QuoteAbout Surf
Biography:
Retired Decorated Veteran with 26 years in Law Enforcement. Serving the last 15 years in a Full Time SWAT unit for a Major Metropolitan Police Department. Senior member of the SWAT unit with duties that include, Senior Instructor with the Training Cadre, Lead Firearms Instructor, Team Leader, Counter-Sniper, Lead Unit Armorer. CEO and founding Member of the Specialized Services Group, LLC. Currently a Reserve Law Enforcement Officer with the same Department and assigned to the same SWAT unit. Doing the same stuff just for free.

Instructor certifications
- NRALE (Patrol Rifle, Handgun, Shotgun, Tactical Shooting, Precision Rifle),
- NTOA
- GPS Defense basic through advanced sniper
- Glock Shooting Instructor
- Sig Sauer Master Instructor Pistol, Rifle and Shotgun
- ATK Force on Force Instructor
- SIMUNITIONS Instructor
- Safariland NLDD Flashbang, Wallbanger, Less Lethal, Chemical Munitions, Breaching
- NTOA - Multi-Assault Counter-Terrorism Action Capabilities (MACTAC) Operator Level and Team Leader Level Instructor
- ALERRT active shooter instructor.

Additional Certifications
- HIITS
- Clan Lab up to level III
- Instructor Development
- Basic through advanced SWAT
- Colt Armorer
- Sig Sauer Armorer
- Glock Armorer
- United States Secret Service - Presidential Protection Division citation
- US Dept Of Homeland Security - FEMA - Incident Command System
- US Dept Of Homeland Security - FEMA - Field Force Operations
- US Dept Of Homeland Security - TSA - Law Enforcement Officer Flying Armed
- RSO with the US ARMY and US Marines
- Combat Medic Course (LTTT) US ARMY
- Helo Dunkard - USMC
- Lenco Bearcat instructor development.
- Range Master

Other specialties include
- Counter Terrorism Operations
- Dignitary / Executive Protection
- Active Shooter - Law Enforcement, Military, Corporate, Civilian
- Motorcade
- High Risk Rescues
- Vehicle, Aircraft and Ship Assaults
- Basic through advanced SWAT Operations
- Personal Protection
- Small Unit Tactics
- Armoring and Gunsmithing

Pat McNamara is a retired Delta Force (or whatever name they go by now) assaulter who is now a full time professional instructor.  His much shorter and more succinct video is filled with the kind of language an Infantryman uses so brace yourself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8JX2hZR_6g

Here's a video bio that he did for the company that publishes his training videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWv7NndBf68

There's lots to learn from folks outside of our normal sphere if we'll seek out the knowledge.