Project Appleseed

Couple recent posts have me thinking about sight alignment/picture.

First, let's agree that the slightest error in sight alignment will throw a shot.   Assuming a properly zero'd rifle, if sight alignment is not perfect your POINT of AIM and Point of Impact will differ.  To what degree is dependent upon the distance you are shooting and the amount of error in sight alignment.  This is not about trigger control or anything else in the 6 steps.  If one does not get the first step correct.....the rest of the process will have flaws.

Let's also agree that none of us are robots.  There is variation already built into the shooting system, the biggest variation being the person on the rifle.  Each step of firing the shot must be mastered....but it must start with the sights being properly aligned.

Iron Sights:

It is absolutely CRUCIAL to ensure that the front sight is perfectly PERFECTLY centered in the rear peep or dovetail.  We teach this as part of the 6 steps, but...it is one step that is/can be often glossed over too quickly.
During my first SAFS match, the AMU instructors spent a LOT of time on sight alignment.  It is critical at any distance, but especially 600 yards.

How do we check that we have proper sight alignment? 

I do this by addressing the rifle/shouldering the rifle the same way every single time.  I believe part of this is learning/mating yourself to your rifle.  Eyes closed....shoulder rifle, is sight alignment there?  Do you have to lift your head?  Scooch head FWD?

Some of the above "movement" issues can be equipment related.  I will say if shooting a standard M1 Garand or A2 style AR15 with either an A1 or A2 stock,  you should not have any equipment related issues.  With very very few exceptions.

Nose to Charging Handle cheek weld on the AR is awesome and will allow for almost automatic sight alignment.  M1 Garand, nose to thumb behind the heel of the receiver.  Tech sighted 10/22, my nose touches my thumb as it is loosely laid across the heel of the stock.

With the irons, the cure/fix for sight alignment is to find a repeatable position that allows for automatic sight alignment when one shoulders the rifle.  If that is not happening for you, and it is not repeatable for you thru a series of say 20 shots on the rifle....you may have some work to do to find that repeatable position.

SCOPES:

EASY huh?  They are already aligned right? 
True....they are already aligned by design.

Couple things on scopes.....as is with the irons above, if when you shoulder the rifle the crosshairs in the optic are not CRISP/CLEAR and IMMEDIATE, you have either an equipment issue or.....you need to find a repeatable cheek weld that allows for a repeatable CRISP/CLEAR and IMMEDIATE sight picture.

Typical Equipment issues:  Mount too high, or scope not FWD enough to allow for proper eye relief for a repeatable cheek weld.

Practical Application of Sight Alignment/My lessons learned:

1.  One can get thru a 25M AQT with not having "perfect" sight alignment.  It can happen and has happened.  I am one of those it happened to.  Where it gets ugly, is at a KD.  That is where the errors will be magnified, to the point you may not even be on paper at 300 and 400 yards.

2.  With the scope it is also imperative.  Parallax (ugly word) can become an issue on a scope that has a parallax set to say 100 yards and you are shooting 600 yards.  The way to beat the parallax demon, is to address/shoulder that rifle the same way every time, repeatability here again is what the key is.  Some HP shooters have actually taken butler creek scope cap covers and drilled a small (less than 1/4") centered hole in the scope cap cover, and shoot with the cover closed.  Smaller hole forces a more repeatable (and checkable) sight alignment.

3.  Some rifles just plain ol SUCK for the perfect relaxed repeatable hold.  One specific example would be my 1903A4.  The stock on the rifle requires me to use a significantly different cheek weld.  The top of the stock is just below my jaw bone.  This is painful for my neck as well.  It is simply the only way to shoot that rifle and score high!  So....keep that in mind as well.  Sometimes the rules of the match may dictate the use of a rifle that is not the most comfortable thing to shoot.

4.  Addition of FOAM risers to the stocks of most 10/22 Appleseed style rifles is typically not needed at all.  Maybe for a scoped 10/22, but a tech sighted 10/22 should require no foam buildup on the stock.  If we are doing that for our students, I believe we are instilling a bad habit.  This is ESPECIALLY true for anyone shooting an M1 Garand or AR15 A1/A2 style iron sighted rifle.  Absolutely NO FOAM required for that.  They do not do this in boot camp, we should not be doing it either.  CAVEAT/Exceptions:  Small women, kids, stubborn old men.  I would advise to use the FOAM sparingly.

5.  Scoped 10/22's typically can use some of the foam.  That is if the shooters have not/or are unable to get a repeatable cheek weld, with the sights being aligned.

All in all, sight alignment should be AUTOMATIC.  The step of sight alignment in the 6 steps, should be simply a personal reminder to check for alignment....and "tweek" the alignment for a perfectly centered front sight.

Quote from: navybowhunter on April 25, 2017, 10:39:22 AM
4.  Addition of FOAM risers to the stocks of most 10/22 Appleseed style rifles is typically not needed at all.  Maybe for a scoped 10/22, but a tech sighted 10/22 should require no foam buildup on the stock.  If we are doing that for our students, I believe we are instilling a bad habit.  This is ESPECIALLY true for anyone shooting an M1 Garand or AR15 A1/A2 style iron sighted rifle.  Absolutely NO FOAM required for that.  They do not do this in boot camp, we should not be doing it either.  CAVEAT/Exceptions:  Small women, kids, stubborn old men.  I would advise to use the FOAM sparingly.

Finally, something I on which I might disagree with Chris . I'd say the exception to this is the base model 10/22 stock, both wood and plastic, which hangs down like a Kentucky rifle. I was shocked when I replaced my wood stock with a Hogue, and could actually relax my neck muscles by resting my head on it. I've given up asking students if they'd like a cheek riser, and just started adding them if I see a sloppy cheek weld; so far, about half like it.

The rest of the post is gold, though. Consistent head position matters a lot; as we say, turkey neck and cheek weld *are* sight alignment. In fact, I see groups open up if my nose touches the charging handle in a different place between shots, so now I'm also checking for upper lip against forward bolt assist. It turns out that poor head position can also make a sort of half-round rear aperture picture, which does Very Bad things to your elevation calls in prone. https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2016/12/29/a-page-from-history-looking-through-the-rear-sight/

To illustrate how critical sight alignment is to accuracy, here is an example:

-A standard sheet of paper is about four one-thousandths of an inch thick (.004")
-A carbine-length10/22 equipped with Tech-Sights (TSR100) has a sight radius of 22.75"

A sight alignment error of just .004" will result in a .642" point of impact shift at 100yd (.613MOA), or almost 3/16" at 25m AQT range.

Here's how the math works out:

22.75"/36"=.632yd sight radius
100yd/.623yd sight radius = 160.5 times the error is multiplied
.004" error * 160.5 = .642" (over 5/8" POI shift at 100yd)

While these numbers may seem insignificant, this is a minor error the size of the thickness of a sheet of paper. A gross error in sight alignment will result in missing your desired point of impact by wide margin. A shorter sight radius will magnify a sight alignment error, whereas a longer sight radius will mitigate errors.

Good cheek-to-stock weld, along with natural point of aim is key to consistent shot placement.

Circles within Circles....nevermind......Tubb stuff and Bassham stuff there.

OK,

Maxwell...agreed, I could have worded it better.  I hate stock 10/22s.
We will never argue bro!

Matt8531, what is that a NEC?  The numbers...., anyways...

Solid Math.

Basically, not having em PERFECTLY ALIGNED results in bad stuff.

The METHOD of how one aligns em..., as long as they result in 10's and X's Right on!
R/
Chris

8531 = Secondary MOS, USMC marksmanship instructor.

Been a while since I've been able to practice positional shooting where fractions of an inch count. You have a great program here.

-Matt

It is always refreshing to see people thinking and talking about Marksmanship.

I was a young pistol shooter in the Navy stationed in Hawaii with a burning desire to compete with a rifle. Eventually I hooked up with some rifle team shooters and they started teaching me how to rig a sling and get into the various positions. First they started teaching me how to get into an acceptable prone position and got to my support hand position. "Just slide your hand out to the sling stop and you'll be fine". First problem, my hand didn't reach the sling stop even with my arm fully extended. We played around for a while and came to the conclusion that my arms were too short and I could never be a competitive rifle shooter.
A year or two later I was stationed at a support base near Pensacola and while standing in the chow line I see a young Wave wearing bronze and silver leg medals and a Presidents One Hundred Badge on her shoulder. I was impressed because she was even more vertically challenged than I was and I was sure her arms were even shorter than mine. I introduced myself and asked her about rifle shooting. She said they were forming a rifle team and would be going to the rifle range on the weekends.  I followed her to the range like a little puppy and watched closely when she got ready to shoot. When she got ready to shoot prone she pulled out a jar of "Firm Grip" and smeared it on her shooting glove and positioned her support hand about six inches behind the sling stop. Maybe it wasn't the way the pro's would do it but it allowed her to shoot rifle well in spite of the rifle, an M1 Garand,  being too big for her. If the rifle doesn't fit you you won't be able to get into a position that permits you to position your head in a repeatable position with your eye perfectly aligned behind the sights. If you really want to shoot a rifle you will be able to figure out how to make it fit. If you lose the match no one will care how you did it. If you win the match no one will question your position so long as it meets the rules.
Good luck and good shooting to all.

From 4/25/17 navybowhunter above re cheek weld and my suggestion for support arm stop.

Quote

Quote5.  Scoped 10/22's typically can use some of the foam.  That is if the shooters have not/or are unable to get a repeatable cheek weld, with the sights being aligned.

I solved the cheek weld issue with a variety of solutions that cost less than five dollars and are easy to install with no movement on stock and no foam to compress.

Take a peek at https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=49820.msg338442#msg338442
post number 6 with pictures of two rifles with very comfortable cheekpiece/support arm stop and details for installation.

These adjustments are well thought out and make a new rifle even better. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Support Arm Stop

Also note my duck tape adjustment to shorten up my left hand support arm creating a new support arm stop. I could not comfortably reach the sling front quick release. I tested various lengths and duct taped several .223 cartridges to provice a stop. Works slick.

You will be so comfortable in prone with these cheekpieces/support arm stop you will be snoring like a wart hog.

Bob

CyclingBob,

Nice modification and I bet it does work.

For AS stuff that is great.

Unfortunately, for other disciplines it is illegal.

I am not bagging the mods, I applaud them.

Just realize for example at a rimfire sporter event that would not be authorized.

R/
Chris

Chris,

Thanks for the response. I have only shot AS so a novice on other events.

Sorry for the late response. Today I changed my settings to "notify" in future.

Bob

Quote from: cyclingbob on July 15, 2017, 01:33:10 PM
Also note my duck tape adjustment to shorten up my left hand support arm creating a new support arm stop. I could not comfortably reach the sling front quick release. I tested various lengths and duct taped several .223 cartridges to provice a stop. Works slick.

Those are some clever ideas, Bob. As another option to your hand stop, you could move the front sling swivel screw rearward. That would place it where you could reach it more easily to remove the swivel and also rest your hand against the swivel to keep it from sliding forward on the stock. Just drill a new hole on the stock and move the sling mount back.