Project Appleseed

OK....when I was earning my Rifleman patch....I chicken winged all the time.

Since taking up other disciplines (CMP/NRA) I have ceased the wing.

Probably because the most of my shooting is with the AR15.

With the AR, I basically let the wing relax and fall where it will.  Truly that is what I do.

With the Garand/wood rifles, I am not sure.  Should I chicken wing?  I guess I should dry fire on the SCATT some to see if a difference in score will happen.  What do you all do with the Garand/03A3/1917?

In my forum pic here, obviously without a coat on....I am chicken winging it with the 10/22.

SO....question for you all on the Garand/Bolt wood guns....what do you do and why?

For the AR, if you have been forcing the chicken wing, please stop.  I think you would be served a lot better to do the arm flick thing (repeatability....gets sleeve unstuck, and approaches the grip the same way every time), and RELAX the shoulders when the rifle gets in your shoulder pocket.  You will find it is almost impossible to chicken wing with the AR.  At least that is my experience with it, I truly never even think about it.

But the wood rifles....I'd be interested to hear what those of you that shoot offhand/standing well are doing.

R/
Chris

I let my elbow hang naturally with all stocks, and never liked an exaggerated chicken wing. My 1917 forces more of a wing, just because of the grip angle, but I don't shoot it very often. Having said that, I was dry practicing offhand with the AR last night, and found that a bit more wing kept the butt from sliding out on my arm. That's a consequence of Creedmoor's thick pads, I think, so I'll have to play with it a bit.

I just let my arm fall, usually to about a 45* angle. but then again, you said you wanted to hear from good shooters, so that kinda limits my input 

Quote from: cwcdl79 on June 13, 2017, 04:42:38 PM
I just let my arm fall, usually to about a 45* angle. but then again, you said you wanted to hear from good shooters, so that kinda limits my input 

I missed that. Someone please delete my post. 

As Agrivere put it in his excellent articles on the standing position, you want to raise the arm only to the extent you need in order to define the "pocket" in which the toe of the stock will fit securely. Any unneeded exaggeration of the "chicken wing" merely introduces muscular tension which you do not want. Yet I sometimes see AS instructors proudly raising their elbows above their shoulders.

I think some shooters have shoulder musculature which makes raising the arm unnecessary.

When I raise my "wing" demoing the Standing position, I do emulate the 1906 Manual.  I also tell the shooters that it is exaggerated.  I do it for emphasis.

Quote from: navybowhunter on June 13, 2017, 11:43:57 AM
For the AR, if you have been forcing the chicken wing, please stop.  I think you would be served a lot better to do the arm flick thing (repeatability....gets sleeve unstuck, and approaches the grip the same way every time), and RELAX the shoulders when the rifle gets in your shoulder pocket.  You will find it is almost impossible to chicken wing with the AR.  At least that is my experience with it, I truly never even think about it.

I think that experiences (and bodies) vary on this.

I find it very easy to wing out with the AR, and that if I don't, I do not HAVE a shoulder pocket.

With a traditional stocked rifle, a high chicken wing is comforting in tough gusty wind conditions.
With out the gusty wind, somewhat relaxed chicken wing is okay.
With a vertical pistol grip, like an AR, a chicken wing is a  dusty relic from WWII.

Quote from: Mark Davis on June 14, 2017, 05:47:02 PM
With a vertical pistol grip, like an AR, a chicken wing is a  dusty relic from WWII.

That's interesting. I seem to remember hearing that the military's change in shouldering technique for the modern M4 style rifles had more to do with the introduction of body armor (and the thickness that it adds), as well as the shift to tight urban combat, and not necessarily because of the change to a pistol grip vs. traditional rifle grip.

Am I off? Maybe I'm mixing up my stories... which is entirely possible.

I like to start my position with a chicken wing, to get the pocket, then (depending on rifle) let the trigger elbow tuck towards my ribcage (relax) for a tighter shooting position.
With my AR's both elbows are tight against the ribcage, with no chicken wing at all.
With my flintlock musket, it is wing, wing, wing

Quote from: Nashville Stage on June 14, 2017, 07:21:22 PM

Quote from: Mark Davis on June 14, 2017, 05:47:02 PM
With a vertical pistol grip, like an AR, a chicken wing is a  dusty relic from WWII.

That's interesting. I seem to remember hearing that the military's change in shouldering technique for the modern M4 style rifles had more to do with the introduction of body armor (and the thickness that it adds), as well as the shift to tight urban combat, and not necessarily because of the change to a pistol grip vs. traditional rifle grip.

Am I off? Maybe I'm mixing up my stories... which is entirely possible.

The vertical pistol grip makes chicken wing awkward.

Cant find the quote right now but on April 19 1775 some one told his men to "stand trim! or them rascals will shoot your elbows off".

The us military's current standing position is geared to making the soldier as small of a target as possible and use of the chest plate.

OK, a little more from me on this.

When I started to compete, standing was deplorable.  There were MANY things wrong with my position, namely NPOA and this RELAX thing to touch on but 2 of the many things I learned I was doing wrong.

RELAX is germane to this Chicken Wang post.  Vinnie pretty much nailed that!

One of the friends of Appleseed's #2 helped me some with the RELAX, as he noticed I was most definitely not RELAXED.

I was shooting the position the way Appleseed teaches it, and that is fine with a hasty sling, and fine for say 10 MOA shooting *no pun intended*. 

I had a pronounced Chicken Wing with the Garand. 

I am also retired military, and most of us walk with our shoulders up, sorta not relaxed, but it is habit.

After a JC Garand Match AS#2's friend Steve spent some time with me in the hotel going over the RELAX part, as he spotted it when he was scoring for me.

In the shooting coat, it is worn for a reason, to provide back support for standing, and the rubber pads on the elbow to support the support arm. 

Once I realized I was not relaxing into my coat, things started to get a little better.

With ALL rifles I do chicken wing but it is very little and not pronounced/exaggerated.  What I do now, is this:

1.  Establish NPOA in prep:  This entails me addressing the rifle the same way I would were I getting ready to send a live round. 
- Grab rifle
- Turn head to the right to LOOK at the buttstock and place it in the same spot everytime on my shoulder (which usually leaves at least 2 inches of stock above my shoulder, more with the AR.
- Extend and invert (exaggeratedly) my support arm and lock it in on my coat
- Do the ARM Flick thing, and establish Grip
- ROLL rifle to my cheek as I turn head towards the target.  Establish cheek weld
- Close my eyes
- Inhale and exhale deeply
- RELAX my shoulders (I actually have to tell myself to do this, as it is not habit yet), which also means RELAX into my coat
- Wiggle rifle about 2 inches side to side and let it settle
- Open eyes and ask myself if I am on my target
*Typically I will be on the number board to the right of me, but I am getting better establishing the position the more I shoot it*
- Since I am not on my target or aiming black, I remove the rifle from shoulder, let the buttstock rest on my shooting cart and adjust the position.
*This entails me moving BOTH feet a tiny bit at a time, and repeating the above until when I open my eyes I am on my target and holding the X ring of my aiming black*

After 2-3 live fire shots, or....if I break a wide 8 or worse, I re check the NPOA again.  Recoil from the Garand can and typically will move one's NPOA during a string.

SO....Back to the WANG....

Basically, I don't really think about it anymore.  My trigger arm just relaxes, and if it depicts a chicken wing "Cool", if it does not that is "Cool" as well.

I do find it interesting that in my profile pic, which was during a Rimfire Sporter match that I have a pronounced Chicken Wing.  Possibly that is because I am not wearing a shooting coat?

SO, for those of you that shoot standing with a shooting coat, I'd be interested to hear if you WING or not when standing with the Garand.

For the AR, it is pretty common knowledge that the rifle does not lend itself to the Wing.

FWIW

R/
Chris

Well....

I guess I do Wing it in standing with the Garand.  CMP photogs caught a few cool pics of me shooting a Garand Match at Camp Perry last weekend at the Pertrarca Range. 

Was an OK match, I was already wore out from a service rifle match (that did not go so well due to electronic target malfunctions), but I enjoyed shooting the Garand.  I don't shoot it enough.

Anyways....my standing pos pic with the Garand:

No photo to share but that's about how I wang  it with my Garand too.

I had/have stopped thinking about it. 

I did realize that my GRIP pretty much determines my WING position.

R/
Chris