Project Appleseed

One point to make is that you call "standard" is "T" class - aperture sights or scope, standard stock.
Remember, there is also "open" class as well - open sights - no aperture, standard stock.
Finally, Tactical or TR class. (TR must be some new description....it was Tactical as far as I remember)

WELLLlllllll......F F F F F!!  LOL

CMP waffled again on their response, thumbholes are a NO GO.

I don't wanna use a MAGPUL stock....so

Guess my only option is a Volquartsen custom sporter (non thumbholed) stock, get me into the T class.

Shoulda just ordered a complete rifle from Volquartsen, entire rifle will be theirs with exception of bolt (modified) and Kidd Trigger.

SO there it is....I was wrong and Bluesteel and Miki were correct.

Time to order a stock.

R/
Chris

I know I have seen some thumbholes at previous Sporter National matches....must have let them slide. It is good to get a definite answer before somebody gets up there and can't shoot. Best of luck to you.

I still think I would be FINE.  BUT....

CMP has waffled on their responses, and phone calls to Michelle have gone unanswered.  Immediately after receiving her last email, I called.  No answer.  Think she doesn't want to discuss.

All good....VQ stock will be GUCCI as well....sans thumbhole.

R/
Chris

Went with the Blue Laminate Volquartsen sporter stock, they are installing sling swivel studs and shipping today.

Gucciness

A few years ago someone shooting next to me at the National Rimfire Sporter Match was using a thumbhole stock. I asked him about it and he told me they allowed him to participate but he would not be eligible for awards. He said they put him in 'out of competition' class. I've also seen that happen to folks who show up with a national match service rifle for the modern military match. Nice they don't just send you home without letting you at least shoot the match.

Quote from: Miki on April 06, 2017, 05:54:41 PM
Nice they don't just send you home without letting you at least shoot the match.

Yeah, but it would be even nicer if CMP didn't have vaguely written requirements. I mean, there are AKs with thumbhole stocks, and those are "modern military rifles," right? I just shake my head at arguments over the service rifle requirements (modified lower for an ambi bolt release is not allowed this year even if it was okay last year, but it's okay if it was forged in; billet receivers not allowed because they'd provide extra support). CMP makes stuff up as they go along, for some reason.

Maxwell,

You are referring to the CMP Modern Mil match correct?  Yeah, that one has a weird set of rules.  I played hell getting an "As issued" 20" sporter Colt barreled upper 3 or so years ago.  Just made the weight requirements established prior to the allowance of scopes (2 yrs ago?).

I did change the trigger to a Rock River on that rifle, it meets as issued requirements.  Stock from the LPK I used was well over 9 lbs!  Put up a 89 in slow prone (or something close to that) and then a 98 in rapids!  Why is that?  Easy answer...., the two 9's in the rapids were me pulling thru the full 9 pounds, and the 10's in rapid fire were me only letting trigger out to the reset.  Lessons learned only thru live fire there.

For that match, I wish they would establish an optics category and irons category.  I love shooting irons at 200, in fact I wish I could shoot my standing and rapid seated with the irons, and then 300 and 600 with the scope..., LOL.  Irons at 200 are a lot of fun for me.

Since then the modern mil match rules have changed.  I compete with the A2 still in that match....but optics are allowed now.  Didn't see anything about the auto bolt release, but I will read up on it.  SVC rifles for NRA HP still allow the bolt release.  Makes things easier in rapids, not having to reach over the scope and risk moving the elevation or windage turrets.

Either way....will be Way Good now for Sporter in T class.

I could shoot (and have challenged) many holes thru the rules written by the CMP.  Many many of the rules are too ambiguous.

Miki, I intend to win the match at Butner...that is my attitude.  Will it come to fruition?  Who knows.  But....either way I would have been livid had I been placed in the "out of competition" category.

Thanks to you (Miki) and Bluesteel for challenging me on this.  In the long run....always better safe than sorry, and frankly....that thumbhole is not all it is cracked up to be.  I prefer a sporter grip or an A1.  If it were legal, and adding tape was also legal...I would build up the thumbhole to allow for a TIGHT fit of my firing hand.  But....not legal, so moot point.

OK....I have a spare Ruger bolt and trigger group.  What shall I build that into?  Rimfire PRS build?  Those are some pricey builds.  Scope costs like 10x what the rifles cost! 

The Final Product!

Meet "Gwen".....cause she ain't no holla back girl!

I did say GUCCI originally......only thing missing now is a Night Force 4x optic! LOLz

Chris, can you comment about the new rifle's preferred ammo yet?
I built essentially the same configuration as yours in its early stage with the Magpull stock and have been working with it for the last year and a half. I've shot Rifleman scores with it numerous times now using CCI ammo, but as the ammunition options have started to reappear on the store shelves I decided to start doing some ammo testing, boy was I surprised as my go-to CCI is not at all what my rifle likes.

Ironsight,

Broken leg has kept me from getting to a range.  However, I am hobbling around decently now.  Next Friday I will be getting a 25/50 yard zero on the rifle.

My plan is to test and chrono:

CCI SV
ELEY Force
Wolf Match

I have heard similar, that certain barrels will like certain ammo more than others.  I know that the Eley Force, recently tested by a friend using a MagnetoSpeed V2 Chrony:

MAX: 1210
Min: 1182
AVG MV: 1192
SD: 10.8
Above was a 6 shot test group.  The accuracy was MOA.

I hear a LOT of good things about the Wolf Match.  Heck...I use primed wolf .223 brass for my across the course loads and they will hold the 10 ring at 200/300/600 yards.  No prep to the brass at all.  Wolf makes some great ammo for sure.

I'll post up my findings when I get to the range next week.

Side note on stocks:
A friend of mine, shot the rimfire PRS series at Peacemaker National Training Facility in WV a few weeks back.  He had swapped stocks prior to the match....to a MAGPUL X22.  He realized over a 3MOA zero shift from simply swapping stocks....so.....If ya swap the stock, do verify the zero.

R/
Chris

I've been getting great results from Norma Tac-22 and SK Rifle Match. Both on the lower end of the price scale for match-grade ammo. Brownells had a sale recently, might still be going, including a rebate on the Norma.

Well....last minute invite to a sporter match tomorrow.  RUSHED home to sight GWEN in.  RUSHED when dialing it in as well.  Kinda not "appropriate" to shoot in the neighborhood!

Regardless, I am VERY happy.  CCI SV at 25 yards!  RUSHED!

Good enough for sighters in the match tomorrow.  She is a tack driver!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMCxyEcsNh8

1.5 MOA, nothing wrong with that.

Really nice looking rifle rifle. Bravo Zulu navybowhunter!!
aj

Navy,

You have to believe you can win! I believe you can. Make it so! I'll be so happy when I hear you won.

Thanks Miki!

Well.....interesting match for sure.  I am SO glad I shot it, as I am now familiar with the COF.  RAPID STANDING?  LOL

So I show up to range, and see the target line as relay 1 is wrapping up.  All targets appeared to have white scoring spotters in the X/10 ring!  I was like...."MAN these are some HARD HOLDERS, all are putting up 10's and X's"!  LMAO.....then I realized it was the target.  Funny though.

Was a GREAT day.  Took my daughter Shannon with me as well.

Forgot tech sight adjust tool for her rifle, and eye occluder for me.  Oh well....

Put up a 569-13X!  Good enough for a bronze.  Just outside of the Silver.  Make that 7 a 9, and a few 8's to 9's and we there.

Rifle needed a click left....and as it always is with me....did not realize that till after the match.

All in all the biggest win was that I was able to shoot seated and standing. 

After the match....I let Shannon (my 8 yr old daughter) shoot my rifle.  Her first time using a scoped rifle....and her first live fire shots ever.  She put up (in suppported prone...using my walking boot as a rest) a 98-3X on the sporter target at 25 yards!  MAN she is excited!

Rifle is capable....now I need to practice seated dry fire and standing prior to Butner.

Couple pics and videos! 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeNtTxi0yz4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayGoy6amesM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B38jxBPE6PY

R/
Chris

Rifle did have 2 issues that I saw.

Now...my scope is up as far FWD as it can go....even using the cantilever barrel mount.  In seated I did have a dark circle....meaning it needs to go even more FWD.  I will be getting a new optic one of these days.  I don't think it affected my scores any. 

On the stock.  Magazine release on KIDD trigger would not drop magazine.  I had to lock bolt back and push down on magazine with my finger to get them to come loose.  NOT a big deal as sporter is a 5 round thing at a time in rapids.  If I were to have a misfire or something...that would be a big deal.

Any suggestions on what to do about magazines not releasing easily?  I'm guessing that some material in the stock likely needs to be shaved off.  Wanted to ask in here before I go that route.

R/
Chris

Have you tried all of your magazines? I have a RAR and 3 mags; 2 of them drop freely from the rifle, 1 of them must be pushed out from an open bolt. They are all Ruger mags.

I have well over 15 magazines.  Eventually I will work em all out and segregate them for this rifle and match.

I just felt stock...tiny bit of material in there that needs to be sanded.  Should cure the issue.

No way I could do an AS AQT with it as it is now....would run out of time in rapids with the mag change.

I'll go very slowly and see what I can work out.

R/
Chris

CAUTION/NOTE on triggers.....

As stated earlier in this post, if you want to compete in Rimfire Sporter I highly recommend that you go to a bigger match and get your trigger weighed with a set of NRA official match weights.

This match, low key.....low pressure.  MD used a spring type handheld trigger gage.  My trigger came in at 4.5 LBS (ish) on that scale.  BUT.... the trigger will not hold 3.25 on the NRA official weightset.   I posted a youtube video in here on that.

SO....one could hypothetically show up at a big match, and be DQ'd for the trigger weight.  DO NOT trust the gages, even the lyman digital.  Get it weighed on an official set of weights.

Nuff on that.  Getting DQ'd from a big dance would suck!

R/
Chris

PROUD PAPA here!

OK....bragging on my daughter should be allowed!

Our family takes EARNING seriously!

R/
Chris

Quote from: navybowhunter on April 16, 2017, 12:38:52 PM
I just felt stock...tiny bit of material in there that needs to be sanded.  Should cure the issue.

No way I could do an AS AQT with it as it is now....would run out of time in rapids with the mag change.

I just went through that with a brand new Collector's 2nd Ed. 10/22 last weekend, with my wife timing me on an AQT just for fun. Shot 49/50 on stage 1, then saved 5 rounds on stage 2 and 3 on stage 3. I had to hold the bolt back and stick a finger in the ejection port to push the mag out; gravity and shaking couldn't get it out, and I was seriously ticked. A few minutes work with a file fixed that problem, and I used Prussian blue on the mag to find high spots in the mag well.

Good work by you and Shannon!

WELL Sh&T!

I was boning up on rules this morning for Sporter and other stuff.  Leave for CMP Eastern Games in a few days....

I realized that I was "illegal" at the last match.  I was wearing my Monard shooting glove.

Rulebook specifically states that is a no go. 

So...., notified the match director to invalidate my score card.

I'll get it right next weekend at Butner!

Right thing to do.

Well.....

I managed a Silver Medal with the rifle (Gwen) during the 2017 CMP Eastern Games Rimfire Sporter match.]

Scored a solid 583-17X out of a possible 600.

Appleseed's #2 took a few cool pics of me.

We represented Appleseed well!

I will say Camp Butner Eastern Games and likely Camp Perry as well brings out all the "Hard Holders", the scores put up in this match were phenomenal.  Silver is good, but....Gold was the goal.  Still not bad at all for a guy with a broken leg.

HIGHLY recommend this match to any Appleseeder.  You are already ready for it, if your an Appleseed Rifleman.  Bone up some on Standing...., and you will be there!

Miki/and Bluesteel, thanks for the back and forths in this thread, ensuring I had a rifle that was LEGAL!  And gear that was legal.  Hence the pic of the Snap on shooting glove!  LOL

Glove, it doesn't matter really.  I use a 1907 sling and sling up REAL tight, so it did its job protecting my hand.  No support really or noticeably provided with a glove.

LOW key and FUN MATCH!

R/
Chris

Only a silver medal? Congrats on being first loser! 

Seriously, great accomplishment. Work, sickness, and chickens in the garage have broken me out of my dry practice routine, so this is a good reminder to get going again.

Thanks for sharing your setup and the lessons learned. I am trying to find a rimfire scope that meets CMPs requirement of max 6x power. Does such a critter actually exist, preferably not fixed power? I have a vortex crossfire II presently, but it exceeds 6x and I am not thrilled about taping it.

Lonestar6,

I am on the search for such a scope myself.  Vortex/Leupold/Burris all make shorter 4X-6X (ish) rimfire optics that would work.

Having the scope taped is no big deal, my issue is with eye relief, it is not "perfect" and that is what I want. 

6X is plenty for me to shoot at, 4 X would likely be better but I doubt I would be able to see my holes at 50 yards with 4X. 

One needs to be able to see their sighter shot holes at the 50 yard line, can be done with a scope at 6X, or.....if you have a highpower spotting scope that would work as well.

Not in a big rush to swap the scope, but it will eventually happen.  When I choose one, I will post it on here if it works.

R/
Chris

Quote from: Lonestar6 on May 09, 2017, 02:02:33 AM
Thanks for sharing your setup and the lessons learned. I am trying to find a rimfire scope that meets CMPs requirement of max 6x power. Does such a critter actually exist, preferably not fixed power? I have a vortex crossfire II presently, but it exceeds 6x and I am not thrilled about taping it.

Primary Arms offers a 1-6x24, but it has a BDC reticle for ARs. I don't think it's available with a duplex or mildot. I was thinking about it for my AR, but ended up getting something with an AO instead. Optics Planet has it:
http://www.opticsplanet.com/primary-arms-primary-arms-1-6x-scope-with-patented-acss-5-56-5-45-308-reticle-ad.html

OK....SCOPES...

I pulled the trigger on the Leupold VX-1 Rimfire 2x7 28MM in gloss black.

Scope is significantly shorter than the Nikon Prostaff Rimfire 3x9 40MM....and the reticle will not be as busy.  Simple "Fine Duplex" reticle.

1/4 MOA adjustments and 60 yard parallax set.

Eyepiece is almost 1/2" shorter than the Nikon as well.

Got the Leupold 3/8 inch medium rings as well.  Figure this way I will just remove the Nikon from the picattiny rail and keep it somewhat zero'd.  Maybe I will sell it, if I am happy with the Leupold.

Cost for the optic and rings came to just at $300 via Amazon Prime.  Paid likely $20/30 extra, but....I want in a day or two.  Have a range visit/practice session this Sunday and this will be a great time to zero that optic.

I will also bring the Magneto Speed V3 to the range and accuracy test the CCI SV, Eley Force and Wolf Match ammo.  I'll post those results up next week.

Fingers Crossed no grey in the seated position with this setup.  Otherwise it will be going back in the mail to Amazon.

Many may think I am being too meticulous about this.  After all it is only a Rimfire right?

As stated above, I want a crystal clear and immediate sight picture with my scoped rifles.  This setup with the Nikon 3x9 does not do that for me.

I earned a Silver with it at Butner.  But....do not think for a second that I am not wanting to blame some of those 9's in seated on that grey in the optic! LOL...
It may not be the reason.....but guess what?  It is in my head....and that is bad stuff!

I'll update on how it works out.

Scope model # is 113871

The Matte version is 113872, it is a little cheaper.

R/
Chris