Project Appleseed

All,

Figured I'd share this here, as I tried several different scope mounting ways in the past.....and have found/stumbled upon what definitely works.

For 3 position shooting (AQT COF stuff)....it is recommended with a standard A2 AR shooting iron sights that a "nose to charging handle" cheek weld is desired and what typically every competitor uses.

What happens to an AR15 with say a flat top receiver and a scope?

My initial move on a certain rifle was to get a standard 1 piece DNZ mount with no offset.  EPIC Fail because the eyepiece was rearward of the charging handle.

Hmmmm, I had this quad rail thingie on the rifle....and the pic rail extended past the receiver all the way to the flash hider. 
I simply moved the scope mount FWD, had one mounting bolt on the FWD edge of the upper receiver and the other mounting bolt was on the quad rail.
I did manage to qualify KD with this setup....but it is not ideal.
DO NOT share scope mount with upper and a rail.  It is just a bad idea. 

FFWD to when NRA changed SVC rifle rules to allow an optic.  Some of the best shooters in the country have made the switch to the scope. 

I was armed with "not sharing the mount with the rail", so this time....I realized I needed a scope mount with a cantilever offset.  Every competitor I talked with said a 2 inch offset will likely not be enough.  I wanted instant gratification and a local shop had a mount with a 2 inch offset. 
Mounted that on my rifle...and it looked good.  The eyepiece was just at/under an inch FWD of the charging handle. 

But the height was not ideal, meaning.....the mount was too tall for me to get a repeatable NTCH cheek weld, also I realized in seated position and slow prone the scope was not FWD enough.

Called some of my mentors *accomplished Hi Pwr shooters* and decided to listen to them.

Basically, for 3 position shooting, the typical competitor needs a 3 inch offset mount.  That allows one to get the proper eye relief and a repeatable cheek weld (NTCH).

My optics eye piece is now about 1 3/4" FWD of the charging handle.  That is an estimate from a picture I just looked at.  It is just at the 2nd pic rail notch from the aft moving fwd.

Height over bore....as stated above, accomplished NRA competitors *Hi Masters* have tested a lot of stuff.  The ideal scope height over bore is found to be 1.300".

A lot of manufacturers do not advertise what the height over bore of their mount is.  I'll list a few options that will definitely work:

1.  DNZ Freedom Reaper mount, this one is 1.375" height over bore...and many are using.  The price is fair...and the mount is solid.

2.  Keystone Accuracy has developed a "purpose built" service rifle mount that has a 3" offset and the height over bore is 1.300".

3.  Giessele also has several options, but now we are getting out of my price range.  Very expensive.

SOME are using the Larue.  The issue with the Larue is that it's height over bore is 1.500".  Some have adjusted their position to accommodate this extra height and it is working well for them.

These are my findings and what I have found to work very well for me last season.

My apologies if this has been addressed in a prior thread.

R/
Chris

Thanks for sharing Chris.

Magnified optics in general are becoming less and less connected to how they were set up in the past. A modern 20-minute rail / 50mm objective setup on a traditional stock comb is comical. Manners & McMillan dominate PRS for good reason.

High Power is one of the few places going against upmarket optic & mounting trends (which seem to assume very different shooting positions). Solving for that probably should take some thought, if you think about it.

Kennebago, I see your point.

The post is geared towards 3 position shooting, not NRA Hi Pwr (although it absolutely translates).

R/
Chris

Very informative. Thanks for posting.

Right, I'm with you.

I read what you wrote nodding along in agreement because just finished setting up a bolt gun for KD use. I knew I was going to have issues and it was a STILL a pain for reasons similar to what you laid out.

Beware immediate gratification. In many cases it costs you more money and leaves you less than satisfied.

For anyone that cares, I am running a flattop AR, with Midwest Rail, low profile gas block, Keystone offset mount, and Leupold AR Mod 1 Firedot. I switched last November and shot many personal bests (including my first master and high master scores, my best EIC and a number of wins in my class at matches). The lower has a UBR stock, but I only recommend that if you are too tall or too short to use an A1 or A2 stock.

But here's the thing that many people don't think about. Learning the scope has made me a better shooter by pointing out other flaws that I didn't see in my shooting. It takes a 470 of 500 to have a Master Score at HighPower and a 485 of 500 to shoot HighMaster. Small flaws in position and technique are magnified when shooting Offhand and sitting at 200, Rapid Prone at 300 and Slow Prone at 600. Before even thinking about the wind, to have consistent performance you need consistent process.

Here is the rifle as I first set it up in November of last year. I have changed the stock. I have a different (lower) mount (the keystone) to get a better head position. And I think that I have shot out the Kreiger CrMo barrel that is on the rifle. But it still shoots well at 100 and 200 in matches. I also replaced the front sight tower with a low profile gas block. This is a competition gun. If I used it for other things I would mount backup irons on the receiver and the front of the free float hand guard. 

Mike's Pic above (JMDavis) is pretty much exactly how FWD my optic is. 

Thanks for posting a pic Mike.  That setup will allow anyone (well...reasonably) to get a Nose To Charging Handle repeatable cheek weld.

For those that may be struggling with AQT (25M or KD) qualification with a scoped AR, this type of setup in my opinion will help you alot.  Well....it will eliminate the "Equipment" issue.

The rest comes from the SHF's and all that other stuff.

One more point....from the 6 steps.  Sight Alignment.  At first when I swapped to the optic I thought...."Awesome, sight alignment will be automatic now".  The crosshairs are always aligned right?  How much more would sight alignment play with a scoped rifle?

Well....to my point originally, height over bore.  That will mess with repeatability......Having the optic set FWD enough to allow for a NTCH cheek weld is great, but if you find yourself "prairie dogging" on the rifle, that may be indicative that the height is not optimal.

In Appleseed shooting with an adjustable cheek rest can help with height issues.  However, if one buys the right stuff, there will be no need for "foam" or any other type of a cheek rest.

Another side note....don't think JMDavis addressed, but this is a great time to do just that.  You will notice on that rifle pic of his, the A2 front sight block is still on the rifle.  Several competitors, have simply left the A2 gas block on, it does not interfere with sight picture.  It will be a very slight blur, if you can see it at all.  Some have used a cut off wheel and removed half of the sight block, others have opted for a low-profile gas block (yes...he did address this above).

Hope this helps you....

R/
Chris

Quote from: navybowhunter on November 10, 2016, 04:10:33 PM
Well....to my point originally, height over bore.  That will mess with repeatability......Having the optic set FWD enough to allow for a NTCH cheek weld is great, but if you find yourself "prairie dogging" on the rifle, that may be indicative that the height is not optimal.

[...]

Another side note....don't think JMDavis addressed, but this is a great time to do just that.  You will notice on that rifle pic of his, the A2 front sight block is still on the rifle.  Several competitors, have simply left the A2 gas block on, it does not interfere with sight picture.  It will be a very slight blur, if you can see it at all.

I've been struggling a bit with NTCH cheek weld, especially in slow fire prone. I can comfortably do an upper lip to charging handle cheek weld with an A2 stock, but getting too close to my rear sight (A2 upper, WOA hooded sight) has ruined several pairs of safety glasses. Once they're scratched, I can't focus on the front post, and that's not so good for improving scores or keeping a consistent head position. I need to figure out why that got worse over the summer.

This is great stuff on scopes, and I'll have to check height above bore on mine. I know diddly about optics, so I bought a Nikon 3x this year just so I could instruct on them at Appleseed. I recently set up a flattop AR (A2 stock, GI handguard with Rock River float tube) with a scope and was shocked at how far forward I had to move it to get rid of ghosting. I can see the blur of the A2 FSB, but I'm leaving it on for now.

Maxwell,

There is some sort of rubber o ring you can get.  Also..on the glasses, I think JMDavis may have something there for you on that.

On safety glasses.  I have a pair of Rudy Project Pro Flows/Fog free and expensive.  I did scratch a lens in the same way...they replaced for me.  Some ranges do not mandate safety glasses, and I had in the past opted not to wear them.  THat is until I had an ammo issue with "gas blowback".  I'll be wearing glasses always now.

R/
Chris

Quote from: navybowhunter on November 10, 2016, 04:42:22 PM
Maxwell,

There is some sort of rubber o ring you can get.  Also..on the glasses, I think JMDavis may have something there for you on that.

R/
Chris

and it works.

But I would add that for other than standing, I think Nose to Charging handle is better than lip to charging handle. This does have a little to do with catching moustache hairs in there though.


The whole point regardless of what stock weld you use is to have a consistent head and eye position. The method that you use to achieve it is not really important.

Quote from: jmdavis on November 10, 2016, 04:58:31 PM
But I would add that for other than standing, I think Nose to Charging handle is better than lip to charging handle. This does have a little to do with catching moustache hairs in there though.


The whole point regardless of what stock weld you use is to have a consistent head and eye position. The method that you use to achieve it is not really important.

Yeah, I prefer NTCH . The lip to charging handle is related to some position change I made over the summer (likely angle to target and/or pulling my support hand back from the swivel); I'm trying to fix it without physically pulling my head back, though. On the plus side, I gained points in offhand, thanks to you guys and Agrivere.

Chris, I like the O ring idea, and I'll look into that. Safety glasses are my nemesis, due to fogging and scratching, but I can't cough up for the Rudy Projects. Better to lose points than lose an eye, though.

Maxwell,

It is not at all an uncommon problem/complaint with the A2 to ding glasses.  The O Ring thing will help.

Others have canted the glasses somewhat.  You can likely do an internet search on that.  If you are on Facebook....look for NRA High Power Competitors group, or US Rifle teams...you will find what I am speaking of there.

If you know anyone that does USPSA, or even competitive bicycling, you can get upwards of a 50% discount on the Rudy's.  Search around.  I really like em....and like the lifetime lens replacement.  They actually sent me a brand new pair.  Cost like $25 for S&H.

R/
Chris

https://www.amazon.com/Blackhawk-Tactical-Mounts-Flat-Riser/dp/B00A7FAEIQ/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1478827780&sr=8-8&keywords=blackhawk+rail

This is the rail I run with medium mounts for a "good nose to charging handle" hold with proper eye relief.  I'm running a cheap 4-16 Center Point scope.

I am glad to see this post. Very timely for me. I am going to start working with my MSR soon and was wondering about many of this issues....Appleseed forums help yet again.

Thanks to all for their inputs. I may chime in again later as I work this issue.

Best regards, Goodoldfriend

I have shot with 1.5" from the rail to the center of the scope. 1.4" from the rail to the center of the scope. And now with 1.3 from the rail to the center of the scope.

1.4" is useable, but 1.3" is better for me and gives me a more relaxed neck. But, I have a short big wrestlers neck and have since I was a short wrestler 39 years ago.

I think that the only way to go shorter than 1.3 is to get an extended rail and then use separate rings of the low to low medium variety. The ones you can use will depend on your scope eyepiece.

I have the A2 sight on mine. I am going to have to learn how to replace the gas block....should be fun.

A very good thread. Thank you.

I, likewise, don't know diddly about optics. After attending my first KD event (having bad eyes and a hard time seeing the 400 yd target) and seeing almost everyone else there with optics, I realized I was reaching my limits and it was time to improve. So I built an AR to suit an optic. When I finished the rifle, but didn't get the optic yet, I found out we had our first child on the way. Which prevented me from getting a great scope. I ended up trying out a UTG scope (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004KRA4YG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1). Time will tell, and I may end up paying for it.

Anyway, a few things I noticed, and questions that resulted:
1. Getting NTCH, I didn't need to move the scope nearly as far forward as most of the threads I've read said I should have. Am I doing something wrong?
2. To get my NTCH without stretching my neck forward uncomfortably, I needed to make my collapsable stock shorter than it's full extension (usually around the second or third notch). I can't imagine what that would be like with an A2 stock . . . am I doing something wrong?
3. Does my height look about right? It felt comfortable to me, although again I don't know diddly about optics.

The help is much appreciated (past and present).

I'd love to see a picture of you in position with the scope. It LOOKS too far back, but it's hard to say without seeing you on the rifle.  Another note is to be sure to check it in all positions. Sitting in particular tends to move your head forward, and often what seems ok in prone or standing is no good in sitting.

SpecialK,

If you scroll up to JMDavis post with the picture of his rifle....that is likely the optimal location for the average person....maybe even for more than the average person.

Not sure about the eye relief on your UTG scope.  That may be an issue.  Only you can tell if it is, or....post a pic as Aggrivere mentioned.

JMDavis mentioned the height over bore....and as I mentioned above most of the National champions/Olympic class shooters have found that 1.300" height over bore is the ideal height.  For example, John Scandale from Keystone Accuracy is likely 6' 3" if not taller....he is a BIG guy.   He has designed a purpose built mount, at exactly 1.3" height over bore...and a 3 inch FWD offset.
Check it out at:
http://www.keystoneaccuracy.com/a5nmscopemount.html

Another option....cost wise, and what I am using, is the DNZ Freedom reaper.  That is a 1.375" bore height, but it is working for me and several others as well.  Here is a link to that on Amazon....keep in mind this is for a 30MM scope, you will want a different mount if your scope is a 1 inch tube:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00403LJLW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

As Aggrivere mentioned, seated position will reveal a LOT as far as scope position is concerned.  Get in position, eyes closed....get comfy behind the rifle in seated (LOL)....then open your eyes....if you find you need to sneak FWD or you find your head "prarie dogging" it is likely not going to work.

Well..."not going to work" is a relative term....you can make it work, but will lose that "repeatability". 

Stock position....I use the UBR, of which has I believe 5 positions to choose from.  I shoot standing at Position 2.....Seated and Prone I think is at position 4.  I would need to verify on my rifle....may do that later.  Broke my ankle and leg a few months ago so getting around is not that easy for me at the moment.

If I was shooting with an A2 stock....my scope would still be exactly like JMDavis picture above.

To my "not going to work" comment:
I qualified on a 10/22 on the 25M AQT with a scope.  I found that in seated and prone I had a lot of black/grey in the scope.  You can qualify with a scope picture like that but it is not ideal.  Just make sure you have "Equal grey/black" in the scope view.  It is definitely not "ideal" but can be made to work.
On your rifle...you could likely make that work as well....even for a KD event.

But...at some point, if you want the best repeatability, and intend to squeeze every little bit of accuracy from the rifle...you may want to get a 3 inch offset mount, with a height over bore between 1.3 and 1.5.  1.3 being ideal.

Hope that helped.

R/
Chris

GoodOldFriend,

A2 sight block removal is not at all difficult.  Youtube is your friend.  Brownellls has a great video that shows exactly how to remove it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4rkeCzwteo

You may opt to buy the "jig" that they sell for the job.  I used it, and it is wonderful.

Basically, remove handguards/quad rail.
Then use a small drift pin to remove the gas tube alignment pin.
Then drift out the pins (if there are pins on yours....some use allen bolts) on the A2 sight block....from the correct direction (RE video)

IF you have a flash hider or muzzle break that will need to come off as well.  Make sure you have a replacement crush or peel washer on hand for reinstallation.

That is about it..., then replace the A2 sight block with any low profile gas block out there.  One that will work with your current handguard/rail setup of course.  It is also a good time to replace the gas tube as well.  Gas tube should get replaced...they are cheap, and since you have it all apart...might as well.

OR...
Use a dremel or cut off wheel and simply cut the A2 Gas block.  I know a LOT that have done just that.

I made some "Bling" with my A2 front sight block..., a necklace as a joke!! LOL

Hope that helped.

R/
Chris

I would like to throw in for consideration another aspect. Human engineering. I heard a SB say that rifles are manufactured as "one size fits all", which in reality means "one size fits only a few".

Using myself as a model, now I stand barely 5'6". With an A2 stock (last version of the CMP rules I read did not approve collapsible stocks for CMP competitions) and my nose against the charging handle, the butt of the stock is on my bicep.  That doesn't do any harm with a .223/5.56, but I like to build habit patterns. CMP  is not my final goal, hunting is. If I did that with my 12 gauge shotgun or my 30-06 bolt rifle (I don't own a .338), I would be brushing my teeth with my left hand for at least a week (don't ask me how I know).

What I'm trying to say is this: proper scope position is where you can get a proper sight alignment;  cheek on stock position depends on where you can get a good sight alignment with the butt of the stock resting on your shoulder pocket. Sounds like "what comes first, the chicken or the egg? "  This is how I do it: first I place the rifle butt in my shoulder pocket (this is what's going to physically hurt me) and then I move the scope to achieve proper sight alignment. Eye relief will take care of itself if your sights are aligned.

I stand ready to be shot at dawn.

aj

Airplanejoe,

Good points.

I'll throw in for consideration, JMDavis is likely 5'5" (at a stretch...standing by to get shot LOL), Aggrivere is likely 5' 10", I'm 6ft, and as mentioned John Scandale from Keystone is at least 6' 3".

I'm only mentioning the above cause all of us, have our optics set up pretty much as FWD as JMDavis picture above.

I believe Aggrivere, and JMDavis are NRA "Master" class shooters, John Scandale is a High Master to lend credibility to what I am saying.  I earned my Sharpshooter card earlier last year....would have got the Expert card had I not broken my leg.

Surely one can manipulate their position and make something else work.  Heck, I qualified KD at Ramseur with an optic mount sharing the upper and the rail.  Not at all ideal...but made it work.

I think that what JMDavis shows in his picture, is the ideal/optimal setup. 

My advice here was definitely learned thru trial and error.  I have likely 3 mounts sitting in my armorers roll away in the garage.  They will likely never see the light of day again.

Regarding collapsible stocks, they are most definitely allowed, that came with the optics change as well.

R/
Chris

Video here of me practicing "Sort of Seated".....
You will see that my scope is just as FWD as JMDavis pic above:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6mYuO_U24Q

AirplaneJoe,

Another great point you made was on hunting rifles.  The post was and is geared towards the AR15.  But....since you mentioned it...

I have Thompson Center Encores, with DNZ mounts and Leupold VX-3 optics on them.  About 2 years ago I decided to sight them in "from position".  Totally neglected to think about the fact that the stock was different than what I have been used to shooting....M1 Garand with my lip almost on the heel of the receiver and the AR15 NTCH.

DAMN that scope bit me good!

SO....YES!  Please keep in mind that this post is geared towards an AR15...and 3 position shooting.  Not hunting...or anything else like PRS which will likely require a different type of scope mount and position.

Does anyone know if there are Offset mounts for the TC Encores?  I'd like to get them for those.  I'm just too used to NTCH with the other rifles.

R/
Chris

I did not try to hijack the thread to turn it into a hunting rifle thread. I only tried to say that I view competition, whether it be NRA Highpower, CMP, F-Class, or any of the other disciplines as training that will enable me to take an ethical shot while hunting.

I will never attempt to override a Master's rated person shooting tips and techniques. After all, I belong to the "joe sh_t the rag man" category. What I said is that the popular scope placing position favored by many does not work for me and that if I tried to clone those positions, I would pay a price. I'll set my rifle for hunting and then I'll adapt for anything else.

Attached is a pic of what my AR rifle looks like. I participate in CMP matches with it and also hunt deer and hogs without changing anything (although sometimes I'll use slugs in my shotgun or my 30-06 centerfire; and  if I could find quality AK 5-round mags, I would also hunt with an AK-47).

I sense that the firing squad is gathering.

aj

Airplanejoe,

No firing squad my friend.

No need to defend yourself, this is a great topic!

Hope to see you at a match someday.

R/
Chris

I agree, good topic. Very timely as I am starting to work with my MSR. I recently came to realize I pretty much have to use optics since I require bifocals. I found it out when dry firing my MSR and realizing I can't see anything....LOL

Either the front sight is blurry from looking through the top of my glasses. I did note I can see the front sight sharply sometimes if I carefully position my lenses, they call them progressive bifocals but they are really multi-focal depending on up/down tilt of my head. Anyway, if I have the front sights in focus, I pretty much can't see anything else....AKA the target is blurred to the point of being a blob.

But, using optics, and practicing a good repeatable cheek weld, presto, I can focus the scope.

So I will be working on mounting and deciding what to do after I see how the sights look with the A2 front sight post.

Mr. McKinley sent me a pic of his setup (attached). It shows how he has his scope mounted with the Blackhawk riser he mentioned in his earlier post.

Thanks for showing it to me. I will keep it in mind if my Nikon offset rings don't work.