Project Appleseed

What Agrivere and JMDavis have said!

Especially JM Davis' point about "It is like me to shoot X's, or V's in this case"!

Lanny Bassham's book, would be something anyone could benefit from reading.

OK, to the OP....

I feel as Aggrivere has mentioned, that with all the logistical costs involved with simply getting to a KD, why skimp on the ammo?

Qualified KD at Ramseur with a scoped AR, shooting handloaded 69 Sierra Match Kings.  Did very well with that setup.

Got into NRA High Power and obtained the rifle needed for that type of shooting, an A2 match grade upper.  Shot handloaded 77's at a KD and did very well with the iron sights.

Have attended two subsequent KD's with my M1 Garand and have yet to qualify.  DO NOT know why either!  All I can blame it on is the HXP surplus ammo I am shooting.  During CMP Games matches I am capable of putting up 95+'s in slow prone, but that is at the 200 yard line.  400 yard line with KD on that BIG target I had like 5 shots at best in the black.

Back to the above "I know it is like me to shoot X's"!  Conversely, "It is not like me to shoot 5's or misses"!

I know I am capable of better, so....am leaning towards the ammo.  I ran this buy some high power shooters that have experience shooting across the course with the M1 Garand.....and NONE of the ones I spoke to use surplus BALL ammo for that shooting.  It will just not be competitive.

So, as has been mentioned, ammo can make a BIG difference.  Having all shots on paper can tell a story (if they are all on paper).  400 yards things tend to open up a bit with surplus ammo.  I'd suggest a Hornady 75 grain factory loaded ammo if you do not reload.  It is good ammo, and will serve one well at the 300 and 400 line.

As for me, my next KD will be of course with the M1 Garand, the next rifle I wanted to get over that KD hurdle, but it will be with 175 grain SMK handloads.

All GOOD stuff, and everyone that has posted is in different stages of their marksmanship journeys.  I'd ask all to keep that in mind, before flying off the handle with a knee jerk response.  I have personally met and shot with/scored for, Aggrivere and JMDavis.  Trust me when I say "They know EXACTLY what they are about".

I'm glad that Aggrivere has taken on the "become an instructor" role.  Not sure how he will fit it all in his schedule, cause like I said....I know HOW SERIOUS he takes this marksmanship stuff.

Just like everything else, Your Mileage May Vary, take what one needs and leave the rest.  But.....at some point one may just re-visit, to "get the rest", all in time.....all in time.

R/
Chris

Chris,

I've not taken the time to read all of the previous posts.  I don't typically entertain the various marksmanship-related threads here, except to discuss the form and function of what and why we teach what we do.

That said, I've seen the ideology that you express above presented a number of times, by a number of people, many of whom I have the utmost respect for.  The ideology I refer to is the notion that in order for someone to get the most out of any training endeavor, they must be using the 'best ammo' and the 'best rifle' available.

I don't cotton to such ideas.  I find them to be misguided.

In order to make consistent hits on a man-sized target at 500 yards, with surplus ammo and a 'rack grade' rifle, the marksman must have exceptional skill.  S/he must exhibit near-perfect form, and exercise the six steps to firing the shot with such predictability as to be near second nature. 

Using a rifle that isn't 'match grade', or using an ammunition that isn't 'match grade', does NOT detract from the training opportunity; in my estimation, it enhances it. 

Think of it this way- if a given rifle/ammo combo are capable of, at best, a 2 MOA standard, the marksman must be capable of better than 2 MOA in their execution of the shot in order to reach the limit of their capability. 

Working towards the limits of the rifle/ammo capability is a worthy goal of the Rifleman.  It places the emphasis squarely where it should be- on the shooter. 

Is it easier for a shooter to engage a man sized target at 500 yards with a match grade rifle and match grade ammo?  Certainly.   However, it is the capability of making those consistent hits with sub-optimal equipment that marks a Rifleman. 

A Rifleman does not need sub-moa accuracy for 4 MOA shooting.  In almost all cases, the shooter is the weakest link the rifles capability.  We teach folks how to be better shots with the equipment and ammo they bring;  we encourage them to build their skills to the point where surplus ammo and a rack grade rifle aren't a hindrance to engaging those targets. 

  What he said!!

Going down the road of the best in equipment plus can be expensive.

It also comes down to you may only be able to hit with a great rifle ammo combination. In other words, you can't hit with ordinary rack grade level equipment. Which isn't what Appleseed is about.

Some of the ammo being sold as surplus failed pass the standard. That is why it is for sale. That ammo may not hold 6 or 8 MOA. In addition the ammo available from cmp these days as surplus is mixed lot loose ammo. Some of it may be accurate and some may be inaccurate. You know such things in the same way that you know your rifle. By testing it and using it.

I am reminded of a series of KD events at a Bootcamp some years ago. The first few days were instructor only and it showed me some things. One of those things is that MANY people who should know better don't have a zero for the ammo they are using. This might work out fine at 100 and 200 yards. But the wheels start to fall off at 300 and it only gets worse at 400.

The bottom line is that you cannot be sure of even a 4 MOA performance with unknown ammo and poor equipment. I should note that the "rack" grade M1s and m14s I see many apple seeders shooting these days are actually accurized versions of rack grade rifles. Some of them cost over $3000. They look like rack grade guns and don't have composite bedding, but they are wood bedded and finely tuned.

If one wants to shoot the cheapest ammo and gun he can get, great. But we really need to avoid criticizing those people who don't.  If the man can't do it, the rifle won't. And if the rifle and ammo can't do it the man won't. It's a system, and when you break part of a system performance suffers and the system may fail.

Recently High power shooters discovered an issue with some lots from a bullet manufacturer. I had a box if 1000 from the suspect lot. There were accuracy issues and when I started weighing bullets I discovered that the weight deviation was over 2.5x what it should be in a box of 1000. Now these rounds might have held 4 MOA, but that level of accuracy makes you a loser in competition.

I will offer the advice that a couple of the best shooters in the country offered me when I started to experience these issues. Don't assume that you are the problem. Check your equipment for loose action screws, sights, scope mounts etc. Check the accuracy and consistency of your ammo.

I do comment on marksmanship threads because it is the thing that draws people to Appleseed and it is the practical value of the program. There is nothing wrong with shooting 4 MOA and being happy with it. But there is nothing wrong with shooting 2 MOA and being unhappy with it. We each value different things.

But precision has never been the adversary of the combat rifleman. Hathcock and Land didn't think so and some of the best combat soldiers I have ever known shoot competitively. What's more they are excellent at it.

Applied Appleseed KD from back when I could see distance.

Standard M1A open site and Ball surplus ammo from the 60's.  Not winning any competition, but could be used to defend Liberty!

And thanks to JMDavis for the lessons.

Target was a 9" long piece of 6" pipe stuck in the gravel at 400 yards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m77M5eJsHoo

Well...

Good stuff here.  Yesterday at an EIC match (full distance), at the 600 yard line I was able to put up a personal best.  99-3X!

That was with handloaded 80 grain SMK's.  Would the 75 grain Federals get me the same performance?  Doubtful.

I will say that to my post above, that HXP ammo (lot and year) is not working "for me". 

Also, as stated above, I know what I am capable of, and when I am unable at 400 yards (mid range) to place 10 shots on that HUGE Appleseed target, something is definitely wrong. 

In my case, it is the ammo.  Rifle is accurate, new barrel.  Shooter is most definitely capable of 4 MOA on the HUGE Appleseed target.  It is the process of elimination.

Again, for what it is worth.  If readers are happy with 4 MOA performance, great!  As stated, many of us are striving for much better than that.

R/
Chris

Your  1/7 may not like the 55 grain  bullets, especially out past 200 or 300, or maybe  it's  just  that particular brand of ammo.  Privi makes a 69 and 75 grain  match ammo that aren't  a buck per round.  I've never shot any but did buy some of the 75s to hand load as that's all I could find at the time.  I never shot them past 100 but they gave decent groups and appeared to be decent quality from my unscientific examination.   It wouldn't  be federal  gold  medal match ammo but it doesn't carry the same price tag either. 

I don't think there is any reason whatsoever to believe that a 1/7 rifle will have problems with 55 gr. bullets any more than any other rifle.  Twist rates are not a "matching" process where there is an ideal twist rate for a given bullet weight.  Rather it is a matter of sufficiency - do you have a fast enough twist for your bullet, muzzle velocity and atmospheric conditions?  If the answer is "yes" then the twist rate is not a problem and should be dismissed as a cause of inaccuracy.  You may of course have any number of other unrelated accuracy problems.

The only downside to a fast twist rate in direct fire arms (not artillery) is a TINY amount of arbitrary deflection at the muzzle due to difference between center of mass and center of shape of the bullet.  This difference between two practical twist rates is usually on the order of .01 MOA - usually unmeasurable, even in a benchrest context.  In a military context, where more twist ensures your gun works in nasty atmospheric conditions (e.g. -20F on the Alaska coast), fast twist is a no brainer.

As an amusing anecdote, one of the most surprisingly accurate rifles I own is a Browning 1886 in .45-90 with a factory 1/20" twist barrel.  Once you learn to deal with the 8lb trigger (which isn't so insane on a dangerous game lever action I guess) it'll shoot sub-MOA with no issue.  But it's the most insanely over-twised rifle you can imagine.  My typical stopping load is a 400gr bullet over a full case of H322 going 2100 ft/s.  In my normal atmospheric conditions, that gives a Miller stability factor of about 6.5.  You could halve the barrel twist rate, and it would still be stable.  It holds its accuracy out to as far as I've managed to get it on paper (600y).

Just goes to show you can never have too much twist (except on an artillery piece)

1/20 was the standard wrist for .45's with up to 500 gr bullets. With a case of Black powder and the bullet loaded out it I'll stabilize a 520 most of the time. My target BP rifle in .45/70 was set up for 540+ gr Postel bullets and  has a 1/16 twist.

Forgot  to add that I MI also make 69 and 77 grain match ammo at a decent  price as well.  However, the best option for cheap match quality ammo is reloading but I know some don't want to mess with that.

I have a lot of experience  shooting the M1 Garand both with light ball and match grade ammo. A Garand is more sensitive to light ball than an AR15 so while light ball is OK for some things it normally will not group from a Garand at long range. It takes high quality match grade ammo for tight groups at 500, 600, and 1000 yards. Shooting some ball once in a while is not a problem if you regularly shoot match ammo and have good zero's for each range. It becomes a problem when you only shoot ball because you,ll have no idea where the rifle is shooting. Then, when you miss you don't know why.

You need to shoot enough match quality ammo to have confidence in where the rifle will group at the range you are shooting at and, you need to have the skills to deliver well aimed shots and know when you shoot a bad shot.

how many rounds should one bring for a one day kd ? how many rounds for a 2 kd
tia

ConfederateRifle - in response to your question, I'm copying and pasting something TwoWolves said on a separate KD thread.  Hope this helps; my personal opinion (which is worth exactly nadda) is to always double what you think you'll need:

You need 60 rounds to shoot 1 KD. That's 20 for sighters and 40 for the stages. If you think you are going to be able to shoot 4 rounds of KD, then you would  need 240 rounds. At the KD's that I have attended, we where able to shoot 1 in the mourning and 1 in the afternoon. That's been my experience.  -TwoWolves