Project Appleseed

All,

I took a precision long range rifle course this past weekend, AAR is likely above this post if interested.

I asked the instructors the evening before the course began, about my cleaning regimen.  I was laughed at pretty good, for my discipline in cleaning my rifles.  Long story short, NONE of the instructors (and these boys shoot ALOT and precise), clean their barrels.  EVER. 

Instructor said, cleaning a long range precision rifle, is the kiss of death for a sniper.  They only clean for 1 reason, troubleshooting.  If the groups were sub-moa at 100, and start opening up, they clean as a troubleshooting tool.  Most times, they say it is indicative of a barrel that is getting worn out.

They likened it to driving a fast race car.  If you wanna go fast, you will need to change your brakes more often.  The liken the barrel on a rifle, to brakes on a car.  A consumable.

They do however, clean the action, bolt, chamber lugs, etc.  But the barrel is left alone.

I realized 2 or 3 POA/POI shifts throughout the weekend, and they attested that that was due to the cleaning regimen.  Makes sense, I have gone to the range before, shot 10/20 rounds, good zero, went home and cleaned, next visit zero was off by a minute to a 1/2 minute. 

Anyone ever realize this?

SO.....I'm in a conundrum.  CMP Eastern Games are coming up, and I am wondering what to do with my M1 Garand, 1903A4, and my SVC Rifle.  Will be my first time doing any of these events.  What are your experiences with "cleaning regimens" during CMP competitions and SVC rifle competitions?

Thanks for the responses.

R/
Chris

I'm also struggling with this. I've heard this argument before (clean bore vs dirty bore; cold barrel vs hot barrel; and everything in between). I've also talked at length with a few of the bench rest shooters at my club and they literally clean every 5-10 rounds.  The last thing I heard was clean, then fire 2-3 rounds to "foul" the barrel, then store. What is the truth?
aj

I clean before the matches and then don't worry about it until I get home. In an 800 agg, I have two sighters to refoul the barrel. The possible exception is the Service Rifle. Often I will clean after the 1st two days (176 shots) and then not again until the matches are over. I personally prefer a fouled barrel for a leg match, but I also know that I can get through 300 rounds if necessary before cleaning. The cleaning an lube after the second day is a security blanket kind of thing.

BUT...

The Marines clean their rifles every single day.

Also, just a point about waiting until you have a malfunction to clean. If you wait until then and you are in the middle of a match or worse in a serious situation, do you want to wait for a malfunction to clean the rifle.

I do not use brushes (of any type) in 22lr barrels. I use a bent brush to clean the chamber and then use patches (wet then dry) for the barrel. I clean the chambers every 50-100 rounds and run a couple of wet  and dry patches through the barrel. Before any big match, I clean thoroughly. The same goes for .45 1911's intended for match use.

Go to the Virginia section and read "Carlos Hathcock's Method for sighting in a rifle." That addresses hunting rifles and the importance of the cold bore shot. I also know that some shooters know their cold bore clean zeroes vs. their fouled bore zeroes. 

   I think the key word here is "precision".

   You might expect cleaning methods to vary between "normal" (Appleseed) and "precision".

   I always clean at the end of a day's shooting, "the Camp Perry way":

        Two bore cleaner soaked patches back and forth once each;

        A dipped-in-bore-cleaner bore brush back and forth each way, ten times;

        Followed by three borecleanersoaked patches, each run back and forth, once;

       Followed by three dry patches - the last usually comes out spotless.

    A good (and easy) regimen to follow. Regardless of how much shooting you did that day, the last patch usually comes out spotless.

I recently met a gunsmith who had been contracted by the US Army to go to the sand pile to oversee and review rifle maintenance in the combat areas.  Bottom line is he apparently knows his stuff.  His advice to most shooters is to use bore snakes to clean the barrels of M-4/M-16/AR-15 platforms and most other firearms.  He believes more wear on the barrel occurs from cleaning improperly with rods than from shooting.  He advises a light plastic brush to use on the bolt face.  I do this after every use.  With regard to handguns, two of my fellow Concealed Carry instructors are Glock Armorers.  They clean their Glocks once a year. I cannot bring myself to be that laid back about cleaning.

Thanks all.  I just emailed the lead instructor on this from my clinic last weekend.  His response is below.  I will never clean my "precision" 308's barrel again, until I see a reason to (group sizes expanding).

Fred, you bring up a good point as well, precision versus "normal".

Cut/Paste of dialogue between lead instructor and I:

Question:
I got it on the "cleaning", or better yet, DO NOT clean my precision rifle.
I'm struggling with the other scenarios you mentioned, DMR, defense type carbines, etc.
So, looking for your stance on the cleaning of a service rifle.  AR15 A2 style, match grade bull barrel, 1/4 min iron sights.
I'm shooting the Creedmoor Cup, a 4 day match, 3 days of 80 rounds, culminating in the Cup match (for points towards distinguished), of 50 rounds with no sighters.
What would you do for cleaning if YOU were shooting that match?  It is a DI action, so....the action will get cleaned daily, no issues there.  My question/concern would be the chamber and barrel.
   
I'll say, I Empahtically TRUST your advice, and I'm pretty hard headed.  I will NEVER clean the barrel on my POF 308, unless it starts giving me signs to clean.
   
Service rifle I am struggling with.
   
Other matches are with the M1 Garand, of which has a match grade barrel as well.
   
Non-corrosive ammo will be used in all events.  Handloaded 77 SMK's for the Creedmoor Cup.
   
I know class is over, and if ya want me to Paypal ya for the sage wisdom, I will do so.

RESPONSE:

OH please.... 

I should have mentioned there at the class that we are happy to provide follow on counsel for stuff like this.  It's a benefit of training with us.    I hope you do consult with me on new equipment purchases, etc.   

Walk with me through these questions.

1 - Is this rifle used for defensive purposes?  Will my life ever depend on it?
    (no)
2 - Do I intend to demand the maximum level of accuracy and precision from this rifle?
   (yes)
3 - Where is the balance of my demands between defensive and accuracy?
   defensive focus  (   1  2  3  4  5  )    accuracy/precision
3 - will cleaning the bore interfere with, or cause me to temper my demands in #2? 
    (yes)
A service rifle is essentially similar to a DMR gun, and I treat my DMR rifle like I treat my other precision instruments.   Distinguished/HM shooters I know clean their match guns at the end of the season.

So treat it like it is a precision rifle.  Because it most certainly is.   You want to go into that match knowing that your rifle can hold that 1MOA Xring at 600, from the first shot all the way through to number 80. 

Good luck in the match.   Lemme know how it goes! 

Youtuber TiborasaurusRex has a great video series called "Sniper 101" where he addresses this issue.  He has more than one video on break-in and cleaning.  I don't know what his background is, but his video series is exhaustive and extremely detailed and he regularly shoots well past 1000 yards.  He makes a big deal out of achieving copper equilibrium in the bore and the importance of cold bore shots.  Here's just one on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy1d662GVbs

BTW, I realize .22lr's are different, but I recall that the Marlin 795 manual says cleaning the bore in unnecessary.

Quote from: Fred on April 28, 2015, 11:36:14 AM

        A dipped-in-bore-cleaner bore brush back and forth each way, ten times;

I follow a very similar procedure as outlined by Fred, using Ed's Red recipe with lanolin, based on Hatcher's book, but with one key difference.  I NEVER dip a bore brush in the bore cleaner, but always use an eyedropper to avoid contaminating the bore cleaner.  This was carefully warned about in the Army manuals. 

I always keep a few extra eyedroppers in my cleaning kit, as it is the squeeze bulb that goes first.

--gb

I know benchrest shooters swear at the thought of cleaning a barrel, but I am a Rifleman and not a BR shooter. Every rifle I own is kept clean and at the ready.
I

Thanks all, and the gent that swore at me for even contemplating cleaning my rifle, is not a BR shooter.  Supported/Unsupported shooter at all distances past 1000 yards, and he made some great points.  As did the rest of his instructor cadre.

I struggle with them, because "This is how I've always done it", Or...."That guy/gal shoots awesome, I'm gonna follow his/her procedures".

Pandoras box has been opened likely, but serious question.  For a defense rifle/handgun, he SWEARS by cleaning regularly.  Ya want it to operate in a life/death scenario.

What I am looking for, and likely will not find, is statistical/scientific proof, that cleaning after a round of shooting will:
A.  Change my POA/POI
B.  Improve my scores
C.  Increase reliability without a POA/POI shift (however slight)

Conversely, by Not Cleaning:
A.  Did my POA/POI change
B.  Did it improve my scores
C.  Did it diminish reliability

Only speaking of barrel and bore, rest of rifle gets cleaned every time.

I'll check Tiborasaurusrex video now.

R/
Chris

I found a while ago that my old cleaning habits were costing me more than a new rifle...  Caused by an escalating spiral of a cause/effect paradigm. 

It all started when I bought my first rifle.
I took it home, took it all apart and cleaned every last piece of it.
Somehow, I even managed to put it back together.  Then I had to shoot it.
But I found that after shooting it, it was dirty again. 
So I took it all apart and cleaned everything spotless.
But having a nice clean rifle made me want to shoot it again.
So I shot it again.  But then it was dirty again.  So I had to clean it again.
But having it my hands once again led to that temptation shoot it again.
Shoot - Clean - shoot - clean - shoot - clean.....

Something had to give.
Unfortunately, it was the ammo supply... 

When I got more ammo, I tried reversing the cycle.
Clean - shoot - clean - shoot - clean - shoot....

Something had to give.
Unfortunately, it was the ammo supply...

So I evaluated the conundrum.
Was the incessant cleaning necessary?  No.
Was the incessant shooting necessary?  Absolutely!

Then it went something like.

Shoot - shoot - shoot - shoot - shoot....

Something had to give.
Unfortunately, it was the ammo supply...

And then came the rust.   


So, it might not have gone exactly like that, but it's not far off either.
I've gotten to the point where I clean for reliability and rust protection more than anything.

Sporting arms, 'collector pieces,' and just because arms get cleaned once a year, if they've been used.  More likely they'll just get a bit of oil.  But they don't get handled much these days and I've found intentional neglect to be a better preservative than constant handling/cleaning.

Defensive rifles/carbines/pistols.  Generally do not get cleaned for at least the first 500-1000 rounds after the initial de-greasing/inspection.  After that, they get cleaned on a more regular basis...  Typically before a light-moderate range session.  Because I do want to pick 'em up the same way I last shot them. 

For what I have, and the purpose they have, accuracy is not a real consideration when it comes to bore cleaning.  A couple of fouling shots is good enough there.  I clean for inspection, reliability and maintenance.  And the schedule depends greatly upon the individual rifle and how it operates under different conditions. 


That's ultimately what it all boils down to.  Finding out how your cleaning procedures will work for your specific rifle and your specific needs. 

QuoteSomething had to give.
Unfortunately, it was the ammo supply...

Classic. 

Quote from: PHenry on April 28, 2015, 05:34:10 PM
I know benchrest shooters swear at the thought of cleaning a barrel, but I am a Rifleman and not a BR shooter. Every rifle I own is kept clean and at the ready.

Yes, we do swear by cleaning our rifles religiously and frequently (like every 6-10 shots).

That said, I also have been a Smallbore shooter (very accurate 22's, like a Win 52, mine is a Remington 513T). Some of these folks virtually NEVER clean the bore.

I will say that if you clean, you've GOT to use the right gear.

Benchrest shooters (competition guys, not just morons shooting from the bench) use Dewey rods (or Parker Hale is also good). These are plastics coated rods. We use bore guides, clean from the rear, bronze core brushes and good patches. Various chemicals get used. I use Sweet's 7.62 solvent occasionally to remove any copper fouling. I use Shooter's Choice (SC) for my normal solvent.

Wet patch with SC, then a brush with SC. 5 passes down and back. Spray brush with degreaser (like Brake Clean). Dry patch. Brush with SC, 5 more passes. Follow with 3 dry patches. Wipe bolt off and apply new grease to locking lugs (contact are on back side).

Now, this is way too much cleaning for a rifle doing Highpower or Appleseed work.

For them, I tend to clean at the end of the day or weekend. Same process, except I start with a wet patch with Sweet's, leave it set about 5 minutes (never enough for it to dry completely, like 15 minutes. Follow with a dry patch, then do the same as above.

If  you do this, or what Fred mentions, you really can't go wrong.

Now, the caveat.

More barrels have been ruined from over cleaning and improper cleaning than have been ruined from not being cleaned. With the obvious exception of not cleaning behind corrosive ammo. Simple solution to corrosive ammo? Don't use it if you can avoid it.

And ALWAYS use a rod guide, and never clean from the muzzle if you can avoid it. If you MUST clean from the muzzle with a rod, seriously consider using a Bore Snake and cleaning from the breech. That's what I do, and it works well.

I dislike endorsing products, but everyone should read M/SGT James Owens (USMC RET) book "CARE, CLEANING AND SPORTSMANSHIP". Pretty much what has been mentioned in this thread with a few extras.
aj

I have recently "found" JB Paste and it seems to work well on heavy fouling. It was recommended to me by a very accomplished HP competitor.

Wow!  What a can of worms!  I can't believe what I'm reading! First, let's establish some credibility here.  I'm what some would consider a "Dangerous Old Man!" I'm a retired, disabled, former law enforcement officer/instructor/armorer. I've been a shooter of all things since childhood. My first deer hunt was with a Purdey 4 Bore Paradox Double Barrel  with slugs that knocked me on my butt!  I've fired all manner of single-shot, single action, double action, bolt action, lever action, semi-auto, full auto and some of the more exotic stuff that most folks just dream about. Luckier than most, I'd venture to guess.

That being said, I've attended the National's at Camp Perry for the past 31 years. This will make 32. I've shot in local and regional matches alongside names like Middleton Tompkins and Nancy Gallagher, just to name a few. I've spent countless hours at the side of the former chief instructor armorer of the U.S. Armory at Rock Island, ILL, Bruce Woodford, who has probably forgotten more that all of the rest of us combined will ever know. I have personally spoken with and shaken the hand of Carlos Hathcock and his son.

I also have the privilege of living within driving distance of two of the premier barrel makers on the planet, namely Obermeyer and Krieger. I challenge anyone to find a better barrel. There are pretenders, but nothing is in the same league.

Now, take this into consideration:  If everyone who claimed to be a "sniper" or wore the patch actually was one, how many actual "grunts" would there be?!  There are lots of phonies out there. A true sniper is much like a musical star. Their firearm of choice is much like a rare, finely tuned instrument.  It is to be treated with the the utmost care and respect! Riding it hard and putting it away wet is not respectful!  I've heard of the few, the lazy, the inept, who shoot a firearm until it malfunctions. This may be OK for the junk yard plinker, but is this how you treat something you plan to bet your life or that of your family on?  I DON'T THINK SO!

I've been a licensed  armorer/gunsmith for over 43 years, and if there's one thing I can tell you with certainty, and you can carve it in granite, it's this, "When it comes to firearms, CLEANLINESS IS NEXT TO IMPOSSIBLE!"  A good 98+% of all firearms brought to me for service look like they have never been cleaned!  A very few owners apologize. Some think it's funny.  The rest haven't got a clue!  The majority of malfunctions with semi and full auto firearms can be directly linked to lack of proper maintenance (Cleaning & lubrication!)  It's really that simple. Occasionally there are broken parts, but that's a rarity in comparison.

Now, for the nitty-gritty.

1)  Whatever you have, ALWAYS CLEAN FROM THE CHAMBER  TO THE MUZZLE!  (OH, YES YOU CAN! WITH AN OTIS OR A DEWEY CABLE-STYLE TOOL, NOT A BORE SNAKE [they absorb and carry grit that the others do not]

2)   NEVER USE A STAINLESS STEEL OR BRONZE BORE BRUSH & ONLY PULL A SYNTHETIC BRUSH FROM THE CHAMBER END TO THE MUZZLE!

3)   NEVER USE AN AMMONIA BASED COPPER REMOVER!

4)   If faced with a badly copper fouled bore, use Shooter's Choice MC-7 followed by their Copper Solvent, OR use Barnes CR-10.  Both are faster and less harmful to barrels than any of the above.

5)    There is a product called FIREPOWER FP-10, not to be confused with Shooters Choice FP-10 THAT IS THE GREATEST THING TO EVER HAPPEN TO FIREARMS! The manufacturer is Muscle Products Corporation, Jackson Center, PA. 16133  1-800-227-7049  www.mpclubricants.com     This is what the U.S. Military has replaced CLP with.  We've been using it exclusively since 1986 when we first saw it demonstrated at Camp Perry.   The claim was, "We don't care what you cleaned your bore with, this will get more out." I was skeptical. I had used a Canadian Benchrest Bore Cleaner. It got more out.  My room mate used #9. It looked like he hadn't used anything. One of our friends had used Gunslick. His looked like sludge out of an old junk yard car's oil pan!   The other attributes of FP-10 include the fact that it gets into the micropores of the barrel and seals them against further fouling. You don't have to fire fouling shots. Shot one, and all succeeding rounds go to the same point of aim. If they don't, it's you, not the firearm! This is true hot or cold. To clean, one or two wet patches, let it sit for a minute or two, then dry patch.  I then run a wet patch down again and follow with another dry.  Nor rust, no powder residue, no copper residue, no nothing, even after long term storage!  One caveat!  This stuff is so aggressive at getting into the pores of the metal, you need something like acetone or MEK to fully remove it if you're going to be refinishing a part that has it on it!  We've used it to break through rust and corrosion on old bearings on electric motors, frozen lifters and rods on a '60's vintage Lincoln engine, the lock mechanism on a pair of 1890's handcuffs, and to completely stop squeaky door hinges, just to mention a few things.  It comes in 4 oz. bottles, 16 oz. bottles all the way up to 55 gal. drums.  Check their website.  They have two spec sheets. One is the military one, the other is the civvie.   There is at least one case of someone running the stuff in NASCAR instead of motor oil and not having to change oil or rip down and rebuild after every  race.

We go through the stuff like water. It cures a lot of ailments, plus it makes cleaning a breeze.  Try it, you'll like it.

Oh, and BTW, I've shot 1,000 yard matches with my Springfield M1A Super Match with it's 2nd Krieger SS Heavy Barrel, 1-10" twist, G.I. 1/2 minute sights and 185 gr. Berger VLDs over a case load of IMR-4064.  Blew the doors off some self proclaimed experts with their magnum bolt guns and megabucks Warner 1/4 minute sights.

So, quit listening to the "great pretenders," and go with the voice of experience. It will save you time, money and headaches.  You know what they say about "opinions."  Been there, done that!


Sightwolf

OK.....

Guess I'll toss out my FrogLube.

Quote from: cdavidhord on May 13, 2015, 10:26:30 PM
OK.....

Guess I'll toss out my FrogLube.

Nah, dude, it's good stuff.

Pass me that hair dryer, bro! 

Well,

Experiment complete (sort of).  10 Days at Camp Butner, and not once did I clean my M1 Garand, 1903A4 or SVC Rifle.  All have Criterion match barrels, and all performed.

On my svc rifle, I did clean BCG and Action/Chamber each night.

Garand received a chamber cleaning and Tetra Lube on appropriate spots.

I had an ammo related issue on my SVC Rifle, a Criterion Upper, and called Criterion yesterday about that.  It was a few failure to ejects, and those were likely because they were slightly undersized.

Yes, discussing cleaning regimens is like opening the proverbial Pandoras Box, but....I felt it worthy of sharing/posting.

Speaking with Josh from Criterion, I "Cringed" as I told him I put over 400 rounds down the barrel last week, and did not clean my barrel at all.  They said, "That is fine, no need to clean the barrel, your next round will do that for you".  So, hearing it from the manufacturer quelled some of my nervousness about it.

Guess it is all up to personal preference, for me....my precision rifles will not receive a barrel cleaning.  Actions and Chambers will get cleaned, barrels left alone, stored in a dehumidified safe.

Frog Lube is good stuff, No issues with that in my SVC rifle action at all.

FWIW, your mileage may vary.

R/
Chris

As Arnold said, I'm back! For he who referred to  Jim Owens' book on Care, Cleaning, and Sportsmanship, Thank you! I stayed up until 4 in the morning writing one of the chapters! Too bad that parts of it were corrupted by an OCR without benefit of a proofread before going to press.

I could tell you the history of Criterion barrels, nothing negative, but I swore to the founder that I would keep his secret.  FYI, I have a Criterion on my "games" M-1 & a Krieger heavy stainless  on my serious match one.  They both shoot extremely well, but it's like comparing apples to oranges.

You will be hard pressed to find a button rifled barrel at any price made by anyone else that comes close. Their manufacturing and inspection   standards are unmatched!

On  any given day,  in the hands of the same shooter, a cut rifled barrel will perform marginally better. For the  average shooter,  the added expense is unwarranted. I have Krieger stainless heavies on my M1A Super Match, the aforementioned full match M-1, and both my service and match ARs.
:cool2:Hopefully, one of these days, I'll  be lucky enough to score an Obermeyer 5R, while I can still see well enough to enjoy it!  "Boots" is quite a guy and we've shared a firing point more than once. His banter in the pits is enlightening!

So do whatever you like. The barrel makers love your money!

Sightwolf

I like the gun cleaning videos on YouTube done by GunBlue490.

https://www.youtube.com/user/GunBlue490/videos

While he is NOT tacticool or an "operator" and nothing he says is earth shattering, he seems to be one of those no nonsense old gun guys.

Quote from: Sightwolf on May 10, 2015, 04:53:40 PM
5)    There is a product called FIREPOWER FP-10, not to be confused with Shooters Choice FP-10 THAT IS THE GREATEST THING TO EVER HAPPEN TO FIREARMS! The manufacturer is Muscle Products Corporation, Jackson Center, PA. 16133  1-800-227-7049  www.mpclubricants.com     This is what the U.S. Military has replaced CLP with.  We've been using it exclusively since 1986 when we first saw it demonstrated at Camp Perry.   The claim was, "We don't care what you cleaned your bore with, this will get more out." I was skeptical. I had used a Canadian Benchrest Bore Cleaner. It got more out.  My room mate used #9. It looked like he hadn't used anything. One of our friends had used Gunslick. His looked like sludge out of an old junk yard car's oil pan!   The other attributes of FP-10 include the fact that it gets into the micropores of the barrel and seals them against further fouling. You don't have to fire fouling shots. Shot one, and all succeeding rounds go to the same point of aim. If they don't, it's you, not the firearm! This is true hot or cold. To clean, one or two wet patches, let it sit for a minute or two, then dry patch.  I then run a wet patch down again and follow with another dry.  Nor rust, no powder residue, no copper residue, no nothing, even after long term storage!  One caveat!  This stuff is so aggressive at getting into the pores of the metal, you need something like acetone or MEK to fully remove it if you're going to be refinishing a part that has it on it!  We've used it to break through rust and corrosion on old bearings on electric motors, frozen lifters and rods on a '60's vintage Lincoln engine, the lock mechanism on a pair of 1890's handcuffs, and to completely stop squeaky door hinges, just to mention a few things.  It comes in 4 oz. bottles, 16 oz. bottles all the way up to 55 gal. drums.  Check their website.  They have two spec sheets. One is the military one, the other is the civvie.   There is at least one case of someone running the stuff in NASCAR instead of motor oil and not having to change oil or rip down and rebuild after every  race.

Sightwolf

I appreciate your input and advice!  I looked all over the internet for this stuff and only found a couple of places that listed it for sale.  Ordered some from "grandmasters" and got a call back within minutes telling me "Oh, didn't realize that was still on our website.  They don't make it anymore, and it's not available." 

Guess I'll have to go with the Shooters Choice version (which contains the "MT-10" metal conditioner from Muscle Products).

According the Internet (for whatever that's worth) the fellow responsible for the original MPC FP-10 has formed a new company, with a new product called WeaponShield, which is available through Midway, Amazon and others.   I haven't tried it.

Update on my experiment.  Shot Camp Butner, all rifle matches 10 days worth, then Camp Perry, and a few live fire sessions since.

Zero's have not shifted, still shooting well.

Not one barrel has seen a bore snake or cleaning rod.  SVC rifle likely has 800+ rounds thru now, Garand has likely 400 (ish).

I've been cleaning actions/chambers, but nothing has entered the barrel.

Seems to be working so far.

R/
Chris