Project Appleseed

I haven't seen enough shooters on the line using Ruger 10/22 Takedowns who have the skills to shoot tight enough groups to determine whether the sling affects POI in a material way. But after looking over a new Takedown model, it seems that the joint where the barrel attaches is not that strong, and the sling pulling on the forend definitely does pull the barrel, unlike with a standard model, because all forces on the front half of the rifle bear on the barrel/receiver joint.

Does anyone have experience with this potential issue?

Not firsthand, but secondhand.  My son has shot our takedown at all his AS's except the last one.  He's been getting better and better as a shooter, but couldn't quite make that jump to rifleman.  He'd get about 200, and that's as far as he could get.  Finally (I'm a little dimwitted) I put him on our newer Marlin 795.  He shot a 218 with it.  It does have a 4x scope, instead of irons like the 10/22.  I believe he was also shooting Minimags that day, rather than bulk.  So I can't say with any scientific certainty what it was that gave him that bump in his score, but I think it's a safe bet there's at least a little more wiggle in the 10/22 than in the Marlin.  (And the Marlin's got an incredibly flimsy stock.)

oops.  double post

I had one of the first run, the first one my dealer got in stock. I shot it well as I could shoot anything with open sights. It was repeatable as long as you worked the action a half dozen times before shooting. If using open sights I think it would be fine, since both are on the front. I think you'd have problems with tech sights.

I sold it to fund the purchase of another takedown with a threaded barrel. The second one was terrible in terms of accuracy.

grunt soldier did some testing with the 10/22 takedown and his review can be found here ... http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=40857.0

Quote from: Moylan on September 12, 2014, 05:34:54 PM
Not firsthand, but secondhand.  My son has shot our takedown at all his AS's except the last one.  He's been getting better and better as a shooter, but couldn't quite make that jump to rifleman.  He'd get about 200, and that's as far as he could get.  Finally (I'm a little dimwitted) I put him on our newer Marlin 795.  He shot a 218 with it.  It does have a 4x scope, instead of irons like the 10/22.  I believe he was also shooting Minimags that day, rather than bulk.  So I can't say with any scientific certainty what it was tat gave him that bump in his score, but I think it's a safe bet there's at least a little more wiggle in the 10/22 than in the Marlin.  (And the Marlin's got an incredibly flimsy stock.)

Your son's improvement probably had more to do with shooting a scope vs. the not so good iron sights on a 10/22. Ive shot rifleman with a dozen different rifles both with  Tech/other peep sights and scopes but I've been unable to do it with stock iron sights on a 10/22.  I've not shot a take down either however.

Oh, we've got a peep sight on the takedown.  They're williams rather than tech, but they sure do beat those awful stock sights.  Still, I expect you're right about the scope helping--my only reason for hesitating on that is that I think he lost a bit of stability on his cheek weld with the scope, so maybe that canceled out any gains he got in sight picture.  But it's all speculation.  Someday, I'll find some time to test out that takedown myself and see what the sling does.  We've had it a year or more now, and I still haven't had the chance.

FWIW, a data point:

Older 10/22 takedown with ~1500 rounds through it, been to 3.5 AS shoots over 20 months, Tech Sights installed, broken down and re-constituted at least 50 times.  Sling attached via standard barrel band and Uncle Mike's Barrel Band Sling Mount.

In the rain, scored as fol: 180-something, 200, 204ish, 211, 218.

There may be QC issues with certain batches (my supposition - no data to back it up), but it can be done.

All the Best,
Monkey

Monkey: Huzzah!!! on your qualifying. You are proof that thoughtful, persistent practice brings good results. I wish I could have been there.

Much thanks to you and the rest of the VA cadre for putting up with me.

Wolfhound had mentioned yesterday that I was the first one he's seen qualify with a 10/22 TD, so I thought I would research the topic on the forum a little bit.  Figured it would be worthwhile to throw my experience into the knowledge database for others to note.

I've had many equipment issues along the way, a large majority of which were self-inflicted (as chronicled in your blog  ).  When I shot the second round of sighters on Saturday and put them all in the black, I knew that I was all out of excuses.

Qualifying aside, it was my favorite AS so far.  Something about shooting in the mud...

I actually shot 210 with my takedown and since then, I have been working on becomming a better shooter.  The current setup is a barrel band sling connection with a Vortex Crossfire 3-9 X 40 optic.  I have struggled with consistent groups and working to see if it is something to do with the rifle or my shooting skill level.

When I switched over to my other 10/22 with a Walmart $30 Bushnell scope or AR with a red dot I was able to consistently shrink my groups down as compared to my takedown.

I'm somewhat disappointed in the performance (return to zero when disassembled and reassembled & group size) of the takedown.  The concept of the takedown is fantastic in my opinion, but the function needs to meet the form factor.   I'm now working on making changes to the setup to determine what is causing my groups to be a bit larger than when shooting my other rifles.

We shall see.  If I can't figure out how to dial the rifle in, I will be calling Ruger to get the rifle looked at.  Worse case I'll be putting my takedown on the market and get something else.

On a side note, I have seen another student that has come to three Appleseed events shooting a takedown with Tech Sights.  He has been able to consistently shoot rifleman scores during the last two shoots that he has attended.  I didn't ask what internal modifications he has made, but it proves to me that there are some copies of the takedown rifle that are accurate shooters.

I've shot multiple rifleman scores with a standard take down model, I have a 3-7 $18 dollar walmart tasco scope on it.  I've never had a problem with barrel shifting on mine when I sling up.

I was able to test a scoped TD last weekend. I found that at 100 yards the barrel deflection in prone move POI downward by 2-3 MOA. In this case the sling wasn't as tight as I usually make it due to very long eye relief on the scope which prevented me from getting a solid placement of the butt in my shoulder. I believe that in my normal position the deflection would have been greater and have heard of POI change of as much as 8 MOA when using the loop sling. IF your position is rock solid and consistent, you could adjust the sights for the deflection, but that's really just making up for a fundamental weakness in the rifle's design.

Bottom line I would not recommend a Takedown for AS or any position shooting using a sling. I will be publishing my review of the TD model on the blog within the next week.

GTEngineer & FiremanBob -

Thanks for your input on this topic.

Just because I like the form factor of the rifle, I'm determined to see what is causing my issues and will continue to work on them as I get free time to go to the range. 

I'll once again check the rifle over (fastener torque, and barrel adjustment nut).  I will see if there is a difference shooting slinged up and shooting off a benchrest at distance. 

grunt soldier also did some testing of the 10/22 takedown, and reported it here ... http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=40857.0 ... just another data point for those who wish to fiddle with the 10/22 takedown.

TJ - Thanks for the link.  I have actually read the thread earlier this week and it gives me some more points of data (frustration) to deal with before making that call to Ruger and asking for factory help.

Quote from: MJoe on March 19, 2015, 01:37:40 PM
snip

I'll once again check the rifle over (fastener torque, and barrel adjustment nut).  I will see if there is a difference shooting slinged up and shooting off a benchrest at distance.

MJoe:

That brings up something that I had forgotten to say.  When I first got it, I double checked the barrel adjustment nut and sure enough it allowed for some lateral "wiggle", I adjusted the barrel nut until it was JUST BARELY enough to prevent the barrel from fully locking into position, and backed off from that point about 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn.  After the adjustment it locked up much tighter and the lateral wiggle was no longer noticible.  Having said that, I did not shoot the rifle prior to the adjustment so I have no before-after comparison.  However, I can say that with standard velocity CCI (navy blue box), that rifle is much more accurate than I am.

As for sling studs, I mounted mine in to place using epoxy (probably overkill but the engineer in me wanted to make sure it stayed in place "forever"), the polymer forearm is very easy to remove to mount some kind of bracing plate (I used a 1.5" x .4" wide piece of delrin with a hole drilled in the middle) so the stud could never get pulled out of the stock.

Hope this helps.

GTE

GTEngineer -

Thanks for the input.  Adjusting the barrel nut was the first thing when I got the rifle out of the box.  I did just about the same.  I adjusted the nut to where it the fore-end / barrel assembly would not rotate to lock.  I backed the nut off one click and was able to rotate / lock the barrel with some resistance. 

I did the same as you for testing purposes... I did not test fire the rifle before doing this adjustment.  I assumed that I would not have POI issues and did not fire the rifle as setup straight out of the box.

I've tried many different brands of ammo and my rifle seems to like CCI Mini Mags.

BTW - I worked over at GTE Government Systems before we were spun off to General Dynamics.  I have since left GD many moons ago just before they closed the office in Las Colinas and asked everyone to move to Needham MA if they still wanted a job.  You still over at Verizon?

Quote from: MJoe on March 20, 2015, 01:59:47 PM
...You still over at Verizon?

My moniker is from my alma mater and my profession.  GT and Engineer. 

"Snug, not tight. Smooth across the back of the hand."

I don't see any change in POA and POI.