Project Appleseed

My hang up was accracy out to 400 with sbr not sight. 223 was intend to be at lest 20 inch. Will 16 get done at 400 yes. But much shorter the fps keep falling and accracy will to.

Like winchester 3030. 20 inch was very accurate. But the 16 and 14 where not so much and had lot unburned powder.

But sbr have there place. But not idea for target/marksmanship

In the fall of 2009 Boltgun71 who was both an AS instructor and a Military Marksmanship instructor ran an Squad Designated Marksman class for a unit of the SCNG. That class combined US Army Marksmanship Unit SDM Training with Appleseed training. In the end the shot for familiarization out to 700 yards. Using M4's with Acogs, the first round hit probability for the students on E type Silhouettes was 70% at 700 yards.

The military M4 is a 14.5" inch barrel.

I'm sure there a person that can do kd blind folded with 22lr Derringer.
However with all due respect to OP skill level. I'm trying to give him best information for his level.

Learn the skills first then do cool tricks.

Quote from: viperrt1 on March 10, 2015, 04:34:42 PM
I'm sure there a person that can do kd blind folded with 22lr Derringer.
However with all due respect to OP skill level. I'm trying to give him best information for his level.

Learn the skills first then do cool tricks.

I agree with your last part completely.  You absolutely can not do the stuff talked about in this thread unless you have a very strong grasp on the fundamentals.  very very good point sir. 

Speaking of fundamentals. If anyone would like a set of my KD handouts (same ones I pass out before the classroom session at a KD or RBC) - just PM me with your regular Email addy, along with the Appleseed event(s) you have attended and the name of the shoot boss, and I will reply with a long list of attachments - everything from ranging reticle types to "mirage" examples and how to read same - not to mention all of the basics of long range shooting. Perfect practice is best, but it doesn't hurt to get some reading in prior to shooting KD. One critical aspect is to record your "DOPE" on the KD range - it is a rare opp to attain critical info on your rifle.

Quote from: viperrt1 on March 10, 2015, 04:34:42 PM
I'm sure there a person that can do kd blind folded with 22lr Derringer.
However with all due respect to OP skill level. I'm trying to give him best information for his level.

Learn the skills first then do cool tricks.

These were not experts, they were selected from an Artillery Unit of the SCNG that had been repurposed. The 5 day program that they went through used only 300 rounds and the end results were excellent. These troops were taught the fundamentals, they applied the fundamentals and they proved the accuracy of the M4 system to 700 yards and beyond.

The best advice that any of us could give the Original poster is for him to shoot the rifle he shoots best. That's been said several times.  KD is not a coolness test or a beauty contest. It is the practical application of the laws of physics.

Quote from: PHenry on March 10, 2015, 07:36:19 PM
Speaking of fundamentals. If anyone would like a set of my KD handouts (same ones I pass out before the classroom session at a KD or RBC) - just PM me with your regular Email addy and I will reply with a long list of attachments - everything from ranging reticule types to "mirage" examples and how to read same - not to mention all of the basics of long range shooting. Perfect practice is best, but it doesn't hurt to get some reading in prior to shooting KD. One critical aspect is to record your "DOPE" on the KD range - it is a rare opp to attain critical info on your rifle.

Pm sent

QuoteIt is the practical application of the laws of physics.

Exactly - that and a little bit of "voodoo". 

I know for a fact:

Wind doesn't matter until it makes 10MPH+ / full value and you are at 300 yards or more.
If I zero at 25M - I will be high at 100 yards and on again at about 300.
If the "mirage" is boiling straight up - means zero value wind, but target is slightly lower than it appears.
If I zero an A2 (20", chrome-lined, 1:7 fixed carry handle) at 100 yards with 69gr HPM and want to go to 200, I add two clicks on BDC drum. to 300, I add 3 more, to six hundred, I add 17 more.

How do I know this? Did I read it on the internet? Nope. Shot KD over and over, recording DOPE all the way. 

Quote from: modeler on March 08, 2015, 10:59:47 PM

Don't get hung up on the short barrel having a shorter sight radius, it has a carbine length gas system (and sight radius) just like (almost) every other 16" barrel AR out there. No difference in sight radius.

Correct.

If you're using optics, sight radius is irrelevant.

The barrel length itself is irrelevant.

The position of the front sight is very relevant.

Not saying it can't be done with a sight radius shorter than "carbine length", just saying it's a little harder, if and only if, you're using iron sights.

Quote from: PHenry on March 10, 2015, 07:36:19 PM
Speaking of fundamentals. If anyone would like a set of my KD handouts (same ones I pass out before the classroom session at a KD or RBC) - just PM me with your regular Email addy and I will reply with a long list of attachments

PM sent. Thanks!

It's looking to be a wet weekend, so figure that into your plans.  Last year the wood on my already tight Garand swelled up in the rain and it stopped cycling.  I plan to bring a Garand and an AR, and there should be plenty of opportunity to shoot both.  Based on what I've seen around the region recently, I expect to see several Garands, a couple of M1A's, probably a SCAR or two, some AR's in various calibers, and maybe some FN's.

I think I'll start off with the Garand and have the FN and an AR in reserve.

Next question: how do I do two rounds in a Garand clip?

Quote from: modeler on March 17, 2015, 12:29:47 AM
I think I'll start off with the Garand and have the FN and an AR in reserve.

Next question: how do I do two rounds in a Garand clip?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6_o-5vOm-A

Try it with dummy rounds and practice at home until you get it down.

When you load the 2-round clip into the rifle, you need to hold the slide back with the edge of your hand while you seat the clip in the bottom of the magazine.

George

You twist the two rounds relative to each other at about a 90-degree angle.  The case isn't quite straight-walled so this cams them against each other, and friction against the sides of the clip will hold both rounds in place.  Then when you put it into the magazine, the follower pushes up on the rim side and bring them back in line where it belongs.  http://www.spirainternational.com/pictures/garandclip.jpg

Or you get lazy, like I did, and get a couple of these:  http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1895311304/aggressive-engineering-m1-garand-clip-steel-parkerized

But for most people it's not that difficult.  Depends on how worn your clips are.  New production clips should be able to do this pretty easily.

Quote from: George Hacker on March 17, 2015, 12:52:24 AM

Quote from: modeler on March 17, 2015, 12:29:47 AM
I think I'll start off with the Garand and have the FN and an AR in reserve.

Next question: how do I do two rounds in a Garand clip?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6_o-5vOm-A

Try it with dummy rounds and practice at home until you get it down.

When you load the 2-round clip into the rifle, you need to hold the slide back with the edge of your hand while you seat the clip in the bottom of the magazine.

George

Thanks!

I ended up going with the M1 Garand for the whole weekend. I learned a lot and became much more comfortable with it's operation with my marksmanship improving as the weekend went along. Special thanks to TheSquirrelPatrol for all the help with sighting and answering general Garand questions. My shoulder was pretty sore by Saturday evening so I stopped by Bi-Mart and got a slip-on buttpad, which made the gun much (much!) more comfortable to shoot on Sunday. After this weekend's shoot I think I'll be making the Garand my primary target rifle.

For anyone searching and seeing this thread in the future: If you're going to take a Garand to an Appleseed shoot be sure you have 5 and 2 round clips with you! Loading less than 8 rounds with a full-sized clip is possible but not easy and can end up costing you precious seconds on the timed shoots.

Looking forward to next Spring's KD shoot!

Modeler,

It was a pleasure watching you shoot the Garand all weekend.   The sound of a .30 caliber rifle is much more satisfying than just listening to ARs all weekend.

By Sunday, it did look like you were getting very comfortable running the Garand and your grouping was very nice.

Don't forget about this summers KD event.  There will be a one day KD event on July 16th.   AS was able to get use of the range on this day, as it is a normal long distance day at their club, and the day corresponds with the Camp Perry match week.   Since all of their normal long distance guys will be at Camp Perry, they give AS the range for the day.   There will be no instruction during this event, it will all be just full distance KDs.

Quote from: Prescott on March 23, 2015, 02:37:50 PM
Modeler,

It was a pleasure watching you shoot the Garand all weekend.   The sound of a .30 caliber rifle is much more satisfying than just listening to ARs all weekend.

By Sunday, it did look like you were getting very comfortable running the Garand and your grouping was very nice.

Don't forget about this summers KD event.  There will be a one day KD event on July 16th.   AS was able to get use of the range on this day, as it is a normal long distance day at their club, and the day corresponds with the Camp Perry match week.   Since all of their normal long distance guys will be at Camp Perry, they give AS the range for the day.   There will be no instruction during this event, it will all be just full distance KDs.

Thanks for the kind words Prescott. I know about the KD shoot in July and the one in September (Vale?), but I'm headed to Alaska in early May for a summer of guiding and salmon fishing and won't be back until October. There's a KD shoot in Idaho on Halloween, but missing Halloween is like missing Christmas as far as my wife is concerned. There's one in California, but I don't go to California 

I'll keep practicing and get things ironed out and will be back at next Spring's KD shoot at Douglas Ridge!

Quote from: PHenry on March 10, 2015, 07:36:19 PM
Speaking of fundamentals. If anyone would like a set of my KD handouts (same ones I pass out before the classroom session at a KD or RBC) - just PM me with your regular Email addy and I will reply with a long list of attachments - everything from ranging reticule types to "mirage" examples and how to read same - not to mention all of the basics of long range shooting. Perfect practice is best, but it doesn't hurt to get some reading in prior to shooting KD. One critical aspect is to record your "DOPE" on the KD range - it is a rare opp to attain critical info on your rifle.

PM sent