Project Appleseed

Folks, let's network what we know about .22 ammo here. I'm not so interested in prices, but results, accuracy, reliability and function are what we want to know.

    I once bought a lot of Swartzkopf .22 rimfire - made in South Africa - and totally inaccurate in every rifle/pistol I tried it - except for a Thompson Contender with a 10" barrel - where it shot like match ammo...

    Go figure!

There's a guy who way ahead of the curve on this, Kim Du Toit. Interestingly, I read these just yesterday so it was quite a coincidence this thread popped up!

Here's his "Range Reports" on the .22 ammunition he has tried:

Standard Velocity .22LR
http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/ggps/9008/

Aguila Super SE, CCI Velocitor .22LR
http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/ggps/5485/

Premium .22LR Ammo
http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/ggps/5229/

Remington Viper Hyper-Velocity Ammo .22LR
http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/ggps/5195/

Of course, as he states it, everyone will shoot differently even with the same gun. You should try out different types of ammunition to see how you and your gun like it.

Personally I enjoy CCI and Remington myself, and I've always done well with them.  Everything else I use for plinking.

I've got experience with five different types of .22LR rimfire ammo, so I'll post up that:

.22 platforms:  Marlin 795 and Taurus 94 5" revolver.

Remington bulk box:  Got these at Walmart, stored right along side the Federal bulk box.  Neither gun seems to care for these.  I get inconsistent ignition, I've had bullets fall apart while feeding in the Marlin, and they string vertically a lot.  I suspect a very poor crimp procedure for these.  I don't even bother buying them anymore.

Federal bulk box:  Walmart ammo, right now about $10 for 550 rounds.  Good stuff, IMO.  Still a little bit of vertical stringing, probably due to variable bullet weights or powder charges, but tolerable ammo.  Kills bunnies dead very well.  In about 3000 rounds of this stuff, I have yet to have a failure to fire.  That's pretty commendable for rimfire ammo, IMO.

CCI Stingers:  More expensive... about $4 for 50 rounds.  My Marlin LOVES THIS STUFF.  I outshot my dad's brand new bull-barreled 10/22 using stingers in my old gun.  If you want to shoot .22 past about 50 yards, you need to step up to something a bit better than the bulk boxes, and this works well for me.  The cases are a bit longer than a standard .22LR case, so some guns may not care for them.  I've shot about 500 rounds of these, and I always keep a couple boxes of them in the house.  They run really well for me.  Never a misfire/FTF, none have ever fallen apart on me.

CCI minimags:  Kerpow!  They actually feel hotter than regular .22LR ammo.  lighter bullet (32gr, IIRC) than most other offerings.  I've only put about 100 rounds of these through my Marlin, none through my Taurus revolver.  Different POI than most the other stuff, so I haven't bought any more.

Federal Auto-Match:  This stuff is interesting.  It is a non-plated bullet, 325 rounds for about $15 at Walmart.  Specifically designed for peak accuracy in semiautos, they claim.  If your gun is happy shooting lead rimfire ammo, it will serve  you very well.  I don't buy the Federal bulk bricks of 550 rounds any more, I buy these.  My marlin really seems to like them almost as much as the stingers, and they are about half the price of the stingers.  Again, no misfires so far in nearly 1000 rounds, and none have fallen apart.

QuoteFederal bulk box:  Walmart ammo, right now about $10 for 550 rounds.  Good stuff, IMO.  Still a little bit of vertical stringing,

Now that you mention it, I see a lot of vertical stringing with this stuff, too -- not so much with Remington bulk box.

I suggest people start reading here:http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46452.

Probably have a couple of cases of various ages and brands
of 22.  I can say with probably a couple of dozen rifles and
handguns in that caliber, each has their own personality. Some
are medicure for accuracy no matter what is fed to them.
However, a salvaged Model 75 (Came with a cut down barrel )
will put anything fed to it in mall groups.   Haven't stored in
any type of controled environment, but suspect heat and/or
damp would not be good!   I have some truely hot stuff from
the 70s that I limit to newer rifles, made in Canada I believe,
CIL Imperial.   Good stuff, but I suspect a tad above stingers.
Not much experience with those not made in the USA, but these
go clickbang in most all conditions and function in all the chambers
they are designed for

I don't have any first hand knowledge, I want you to know that up front.

I also have NO written proof, you need to know that up front, too.

I got lucky and was talking with a guy who seemed to know what he was talking about with respect to .22 LR manufacturing.

He told me that .22 LR ammo is NOT graded by accuracy, it is graded by number of failures to fire per 1,000 and by velocity variations.

This is because the priming compound is spun into the rim of the cartridge by centripetal force and it can be missing in spots or thin in spots.  Missing will give you a misfire.  Thin will give you less instantaneous ignition and you will most likely loose pressure as some powder will be ejected unburned.

This is the hierarchy for High Speed stuff.

The best stuff becomes the high level stuff, Remington Golden Bullet, Winchester Super X and the plated Federal in the 50 round red and white boxes.

The next grade down goes into the bulk packs.  These won't have too many dead spots, but MAY well have thin spots.

Then you have the "loss leader" grade stuff, the stuff that is sold cheaper than they can actually make it, just to get rid of it, and it is used to pull you into stores.  This is Remington Thunderbolt, Winchester Wildcat and probably Federal American Eagle.

Finally, there is stuff that never makes it out of the plant, it is broken down and recycled right there.

There are similar levels, WITH SOME MANUFACTURERS for standard velocity (CCI) and others just make different lots and you may get good or not so good.

Buckshot

Remington SubSonic Hollow points work rather nicely for me - and they're great for assassinating the  neighbors cat at 3 am

I keed!  I Keed!  I KEED!

The best 22 ammo I have ever found is Western Expert in the yellow box. Don't go looking for it because they quit making it in the 1950's. I bought a few cases of the stuff twenty years ago and it turned out to be super accurate. I shoot it in my Anshutz Rifle and my Hammerli Free Pistol. Paid $5.00 a brick for it. Don't know what I'll do when it's gone.

Doug in Virginia

While this probably will not happen ever again, as .22 Shorts are more expensive than LR, Firing only .22 Shorts in a S, L, and LR chambered .22 rifle will cause a "Burn Ring" after a long period of time. With the shoulder being farther forward the .22 short will cause a visual dark ring to form in the chamber. Most rounds insert fully into the chamber, and the throat area is where the highest pressure will form, but since the shorter rounds of the .22 don't go that far, the burn ring forms where the pressure is the highest. It's probably the only rifle that will do this, since it was a cheap, common round back in the day and there are 3 sizes to fire out of it.

You'll probably never notice it until you start getting stuck rounds in the chamber when you switch to LRs, as the brass swells in the burn ring and then has to be swaged back out of it. I have seen this first hand in my Grandfather's Winchester 67. Unfortunately, the only cure for it is to rebarrel or put a barrel liner in it if the receiver and barrel are one piece. Or alternately, only fire .22 shorts in it.

The sad part is I mirror-polished the rifle before noticing this...

Not arguing Muddog, just wanted to ask what type of rifle you have.  My dad's old prewar Savage Model 29 has had a large pile of .22 shorts through it over the years with seemingly no issues.  The shorts are quiet, they kill squirrels as dead as a a .22 LR with head shots (head shots don't mess up any meat) and he said that on the (rare I'd say after hunting with him for years) occasion that he missed one he said most of the time they didn't realize they'd been shot at as the .22 short is so quiet.  He does shoot LR's through it when I can talk him into a little target shooting.

I've heard the same thing about the shorts but I've never shot any in my rifles.  These days shorts are next to impossible to buy unless you find them at a regular gun store.  Have a good one bud.

Quote from: M1A4ME on August 09, 2007, 11:22:26 PM
Not arguing Muddog, just wanted to ask what type of rifle you have.  My dad's old prewar Savage Model 29 has had a large pile of .22 shorts through it over the years with seemingly no issues.  The shorts are quiet, they kill squirrels as dead as a a .22 LR with head shots (head shots don't mess up any meat) and he said that on the (rare I'd say after hunting with him for years) occasion that he missed one he said most of the time they didn't realize they'd been shot at as the .22 short is so quiet.  He does shoot LR's through it when I can talk him into a little target shooting.

I've heard the same thing about the shorts but I've never shot any in my rifles.  These days shorts are next to impossible to buy unless you find them at a regular gun store.  Have a good one bud.

Lol actually it's in the post:

QuoteI have seen this first hand in my Grandfather's Winchester 67.

It's a single shot that has to be cocked after loading, really inexpensive. It is possible that the steel in your father's rifle is stronger than the Winchester's. My Grandfather was given this rifle as a boy by his father, it was the only weapon they had for a long time as they were poor share-croppers(meat was probably expensive for them, so rabbit and squirrel were a good option). It's probably only had .22 S fired in it, after he got a Semi-auto in his later years he probably never shot it again.

I just wanted to mention that this can occur, and it's something to watch for if you have or are going to purchase an older rifle.

Back in the 90's a friend turned me onto Winchester 'PowerPoints', 40 grn. hp, (marked Australia), very accurate, powerful. Later offerings were marked made in USA, not quite as accurate, but still good. don't think they've made them in a while, but if you find them at a show, give them a try, probaly be pricey though, if the dealer knows what he's got.
Back in the eighties (?) Win. offered a 42 grn. SWC, called 'Super Silhouette', very accurate, very pricey.  Effective on small game. Maybe ten tears ago found a brick at a show for $15 bucks, that was a steal! Might find some at a show. Don't hold your breath.

CCI Blazers,,promo, used to be $11 a brick at a local store, 'Dick's', but all they carry now is Remington (don't care for it). Since last year and this year the Balzer I've seen at shows is $15 a brick. Shot good in three or four rifles I tried it in.  Killed alot of Squirrels & tin cans and paper w/ it.

CCI Green Tag never impressed me much.

CCI SGB (small game bullet). Accurate & effective. Specialty item. Don't see it around too much.

CCI Stingers were never all that accurate for me.

Remington sub-sonic. Very tight groups at 25 yds. Use it when hunting close to home. the neighbors don't notice(so far).
Last year had a skunk take up residence around the house . Almost tripped over him a few times coming home from work in the wee hours. Took my Glenfield M25, Weaver Classic 300 (1in.) to work. Returning home  parked on the side of the lawn . Figured I had a safe enough angle. Three a.m., light rain falling , perfect. Light from the front porch & a nearby street lamp. Waited about fifteen minutes. He waddles to the middle of the front lawn. Things were dim, but I guessed the crosshairs on his head. He slumped stock still at the 'pop'. Hit him again just to be sure. Nobody heard nuthin'.

CCI Velocitor,,,fairly new offering (pricey) . Forty grn. hp @1400 fps. Very accurate @ 50 yds. Didn't get out much last season, but stopped a few squirrels w/ the stuff. Might be my new 'serious' small game load.
As an aside,,,I read a review of a new Aguila offering a few months ago,,,A forty grn. hp @ 1500fps. Haven't seen any to try it. ,,,but it sure is fast for a .22 lr. Probaly pricey.
Aguila also makes a 60 grn. SS (sub-sonic). It's supposed to require a fast twist. I've shot it through the Glenfield @ 50yds. about an 1 1/2 ". If you have one of those fast twist bbls'. on your 10/22 might make a good 100 yd. load.

My recommendation at present is the bulk packed Federal at ChinaMart ,  $10 per 550 rnds. I haven't shot too much of it, but it seems to shoot good at 50 yds. Probaly the best ammo deal in the country at present. My experience is most standard velocity shoots pretty good. Many high vel. loadings shoot good or even excellent. Years ago tried Armscor (Phillipine) Std. & Hi-Vel, the Std. was so-so, the Hi-Vel was very good. Bought a brick of Winchester X-Pert one time. Shot so bad I pulled the bullets and used them in a slingshot,,,Just joking, but  they sux'd. I've tried lotsa of different .22 rimfire loadings through the years, including some exotic foreign stuff like spitzers. but if you can't get it, or it costs too much to shoot in quantity,,,why bother?

For platforms : the afforementioned Glenfield is my go-to gun. I honed the trigger some years ago and replaced the trigger spring w/ a spring from a mechanical pencil. When I want to show off I'll trot out the Browning T-Bolt (I'd like to shake the hand of the person who fitted that trigger ! I've got a couple other rimfires, but lately I've been trying to spend some time with my long neglected 10/22. I've had it out a few times this summer, and was pretty unhappy w/ it, then I noticed the stock screw was loose. Now I'm waiting for the Tech-Sight group buy to coalesce.

 

Quote from: Muddogg on August 10, 2007, 12:57:07 AM

Quote from: M1A4ME on August 09, 2007, 11:22:26 PM
Not arguing Muddog, just wanted to ask what type of rifle you have.  My dad's old prewar Savage Model 29 has had a large pile of .22 shorts through it over the years with seemingly no issues.  The shorts are quiet, they kill squirrels as dead as a a .22 LR with head shots (head shots don't mess up any meat) and he said that on the (rare I'd say after hunting with him for years) occasion that he missed one he said most of the time they didn't realize they'd been shot at as the .22 short is so quiet.  He does shoot LR's through it when I can talk him into a little target shooting.

I've heard the same thing about the shorts but I've never shot any in my rifles.  These days shorts are next to impossible to buy unless you find them at a regular gun store.  Have a good one bud.

Lol actually it's in the post:

QuoteI have seen this first hand in my Grandfather's Winchester 67.

It's a single shot that has to be cocked after loading, really inexpensive. It is possible that the steel in your father's rifle is stronger than the Winchester's. My Grandfather was given this rifle as a boy by his father, it was the only weapon they had for a long time as they were poor share-croppers(meat was probably expensive for them, so rabbit and squirrel were a good option). It's probably only had .22 S fired in it, after he got a Semi-auto in his later years he probably never shot it again.

I just wanted to mention that this can occur, and it's something to watch for if you have or are going to purchase an older rifle.

Muddog,

Your grandpa's Winchester 67 MIGHT have been fired with shorts with corrosive primers.  Corrosive primers and not much cleaning would create much more damage than will happen nowdays with non-corrosive primers.

This same situation happens when .38 Specials are fired in a .357 Magnum or 44 Specials are fired in a .44 Magnum and only causes some residue that has to be removed with a brass brush and some solvent, just modern shorts in a LR chamber.

Buckshot

Quote from: Buckshot on August 11, 2007, 01:57:03 AM

Muddog,

Your grandpa's Winchester 67 MIGHT have been fired with shorts with corrosive primers.  Corrosive primers and not much cleaning would create much more damage than will happen nowdays with non-corrosive primers.

This same situation happens when .38 Specials are fired in a .357 Magnum or 44 Specials are fired in a .44 Magnum and only causes some residue that has to be removed with a brass brush and some solvent, just modern shorts in a LR chamber.

Buckshot

It is possible that the .22 ammunition used was corrosive, as this rifle's production run was 1935-1940, and assuming that my Great-grandfather probably purchased this rifle when he started on the farm, it has had a good long life. But the bore itself is uncorroded, and only the burn ring remains. I'm sure it has occured in the past, as my instructors have knowledge of them. But many of the afflicted rifles would have been tossed in the garbage in those days, much like a broken hammer or screwdriver, the owners just purchased a new one. Also judging from the headspace(recessed ~.004), it was probably fired many times in the years that it served my fore-fathers.

Some info on .22 ammo, Bulk pack Federal from Wal-Mart are pretty good. Bulk pack Winchester power points from Wallys with large hollow points excellent for  stopping ground squirrels. good accuracy too.
American Eagles are better slightly,  My experiments with Remingtons have left disappointment. Minimags good, Wildcats good. All these Can shoot 1  1/2 " at 50 yards or 3 MOA. !00 yards? Better get a tall target! For accuaracy it is hard to beat high end european ammo that cost nearly the same as centerfire ammo. This ammo can shoot nearly 1 MOA at 100 Meters. Right now I am shooting on a case of Remington-Eley. Mfg. by Eley sold by Rem. it gives me approx 1 1/4 Horizontal X 1 3/4 vertical at !00 meters. In a Anschutz rifle with 16x scope.
A small hint for 10-22 shooters, lead bullets with wax lube on them will clog the inside of your magazine with wax. Anybody can take a Ruger 10-22 mag apart with an allen wrench. Cleaning the mag is easy too. Putting one back together brings to mind something about the devil in the details.
The .22 Long Rifle is Americas most popular cartridge. So burn a brick today!
                                                                        Clodhopper

Now I am embarrased.
My last post about 3 MOA on good cheap ammo should be 3/4 " at 50 yards or 1 1/2 moa. Maybe I need to go to another apple seed to learn about the dangers of math in public. Some more drills in MOA and rapid fire is good for the soul.
                                                                  Clodhopper

Something folks need to remember about .22's and just about any centerfire rifles.  What shoots good in one may not shoot good in the next one.  My 10/22 shoots better with Rem. Golden bullets than with the Federal or Rem. Thunderbolt bulkpack or brick ammo.  My Ruger Mk1 bull barrel shoots the Thunderbolts better than anything else I ever ran through it.  Its good to share experiences with rifles and ammo but due to the above most everyone will have a slightly different experience and opinion about what is best.  Have a good one.

Quote from: M1A4ME on August 27, 2007, 02:26:24 AM
Something folks need to remember about .22's and just about any centerfire rifles.  What shoots good in one may not shoot good in the next one.  My 10/22 shoots better with Rem. Golden bullets than with the Federal or Rem. Thunderbolt bulkpack or brick ammo.  My Ruger Mk1 bull barrel shoots the Thunderbolts better than anything else I ever ran through it.  Its good to share experiences with rifles and ammo but due to the above most everyone will have a slightly different experience and opinion about what is best.  Have a good one.

Very Very True!

Consecutive serial numbered rifles off of the same production line can prefer TOTALLY DIFFERENT ammo from each other.  One will shoot PATTERNS with the ammo the other one loves.

It is not always this way, but it CAN BE, and those of us around a while HAVE SEEN IT.

If you want to see another real mess, just switch from one known good ammo to another known good ammo WITHOUT CLEANING IN BETWEEN!  I have seen this, too.  Groups to patterns with the patterns slowly (300 or so rounds) settling back into groups.  It is the differences in the coatings on the various brands of ammo.  If you run three passes with a Bore Snake between the kinds of ammo both will shoot just fine with NO PATTERNS, just groups.

Just little things you learn from spending too much time with .22 rifles.

Buckshot

Another thing to be aware of is that the manufacturer can CHANGE the design of a particular round without warning!

Case in point: A few years back, Remington changed the design of the hollowpoint bullet in it's 550 round bulk pack that is sold at WalMart. From one box to another, what HAD been a perfectly reliable round in my Ruger MK 1 pistol turned my pistol into a jammomatic.  I switched to Federal, and the MK 1 is much happier. (basically, the hollowpoint changed in shape - it was blunter, and thus would catch on the feed ramp in the pistol)

Strangely enough, my 10/22 doesn't CARE which round it shoots, so far.

Hold on to that 10/22!  I have a BAR (not the military rifle, the Browning semi auto deer rifle in 30.06) that shoots 150's and 180's into the same group out to 300 yds. and that is rare.  When you run across an omnivorous rifle, you've got something worth keeping.  I've only shot 3 types of .22 ammo in my 10/22 and I get 3 different group sizes depending on the brand/type I'm shooting.

Quote from: VAshooter on August 09, 2007, 05:28:02 PM
The best 22 ammo I have ever found is Western Expert in the yellow box. Don't go looking for it because they quit making it in the 1950's. I bought a few cases of the stuff twenty years ago and it turned out to be super accurate. I shoot it in my Anshutz Rifle and my Hammerli Free Pistol. Paid $5.00 a brick for it. Don't know what I'll do when it's gone.

Doug in Virginia

Western Expert was EXCELLENT ammo and their premium the same or better (EZ X's).  I still have two bricks of EZ X'S I'm saving untill I come across some collector that just has to have them bad enouch that I can buy a case of 10 X.

So what did I do?,  I'd rather switch than quit so I switched.  Mostly I use CCI Standard now.

I shot my first rounds of Federal from Wally world just last week.  I had several mis-fires that I reloaded back into the mag after the group was done that fired again.  I bought the 325 pack.  I would say from what I shot so far that I am not going to purchase it again.  Rem sub sonic or CCI blazer has been very kind to me so far.  The Federal gave me about 5 or 6 duds as well, per the 325 box.  I had not had any issue with ammo like that other than with the Pakistani .308 that came around early this year.  I think the Federal is kinda dirty as well.

Ax

We sold some of that Winchester Match ammo for $20 a brick last weekend.

Two Glock, I can relate to the sonms and grandsons needing "entertainment".

Quote from: KodyJaret on August 10, 2007, 06:29:27 AM
Back in the 90's a friend turned me onto Winchester 'PowerPoints', 40 grn. hp, (marked Australia), very accurate, powerful. Later offerings were marked made in USA, not quite as accurate, but still good. don't think they've made them in a while, but if you find them at a show, give them a try, probaly be pricey though, if the dealer knows what he's got.

I've never shot the Aussie "Power Points," but at least one of my rifles likes the American ones better than any other HV's I've found. They're still available, probably now between $25 and $30 per brick.  A lot more than Promo stuff, but tolerable when better accuracy is demanded.  Some of the catalog dealers and a few gunstores have them, but not Wally World.

CCI stingers are very impressive on impact but I've never been happy with their accuracy. 

For ultra-newbies who are apprehensive about shooting any gun, I've had good success with using Remington .22 long CB caps for their first five or ten rounds, but I haven't found any gun that shoots them accurately.  But they're so quiet and mild they serve in that role real well.  They ought to be adequate for pests and really small game, if I could find a gun that liked them.

My bull-barrel Ruger Mark II likes the old blue-box PMC Scoremaster SV long rifles, but I haven't seen them anywhere for several years, and I'm almost out.  On a good day I can shoot the difference between them and HV stuff, but I'm not nearly good enough to shoot the difference between them and match ammo, although I invested in a few boxes to try.

Hope this helps somebody.  But as has been pointed out a few times in this thread, each rimfire arm is a law unto itself.

At Davilla last week, I had to pull my primary .22 off the line and go with my backup, a Marlin 39A.  Beautiful gun, but it didn't want to feed those Winchester Power Points (that fed fine through my primary rifle), at least not every time.  The PP's have a pretty good sized hollow point, and are kinda blunt.  Luckily I had a brick of PMC Sidewinder, unplated lead RN, HV stuff.  Pretty cheap, and they answered fine.    

You might want to check the bulk Wincester Dynapoints. I thought that my rifle was bending the nose when they wouldn't chamber correctly, then for some reason I grabbed a handful out of the bulk box and found a half a dozen that were pre-bent, no wonder they wouldn't chamber. Once I saw that and filtered the ammo, I had no trouble. I like the cheap stuff. I've bought Eley and federal gold etc. But My rifles don't seem to like them, they're probably just cheap like me.

"A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work"

Quote from: 30CalGal on November 13, 2007, 04:30:00 PM

"A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work"

Boy ain't that the truth. The little buggers were all over me today! 27 5yo's and I am not getting any younger!

I think I will go to the range for a while. Maybe some aqt will calm my nerves.

we need snake45 to chime in on this thread.
he has done extensive testing with .22 ammo!