Project Appleseed

I've been to two Appleseed 25yd weekends and I practice at my local range every weekend. I can't for the life of me shoot a decent group doing the "eyes closed" drill. Most of the time, a few of my shots don't even hit the paper doing that drill. I am honestly doing my best to put the training to use but can't get into NPOA to save my life.

I put my elbow under the rifle and shoot during respiratory pause but I still have vertical stringing, especially when using iron sights. Without a scope, most of my 5 shot strings are unacceptable. 

No way I'm giving up but it's frustrating to feel my muscles tensing up and my hands shaking when I'm supposed to be relaxed.

Has anyone else struggled getting into NPOA like I am now?

Try resting before you get into position. Put your sling on but instead of getting into position just lay down like you're going to take a nap. Then after you're nice and relaxed, raise up into position.

If you're muscles are tensing and your hands are shaking, your sling is probably way too loose. There should be no "holding" that rifle up there in the pocket. It should rest on top of your support hand and be sandwiched into your shoulder so hard that you don't even need your trigger hand up there.

I'd bet dollars to donuts if you cranked your sling about two inches tighter and tried this all again you'd be good to go.

Another thing you may want to consider is your index to the target. Often NPOA issues result from being improperly indexed. Try to index a little more (or less).

Yeah - I struggled with this for several Appleseed weekends!

Frustrating isn't it!?!?

Best advice that I can give is to not worry about heading out to the range, heck don't even worry about dry firing.

Just make a regular habit of slinging up and RELAXING into your NPOA at home.

You can get past it! The more being in position is a habit the easier it will be to relax.

(And dry fire is great - just not until you can be relaxed in position)

Quote from: Harmonica on April 21, 2014, 06:07:41 PM
I've been to two Appleseed 25yd weekends and I practice at my local range every weekend. I can't for the life of me shoot a decent group doing the "eyes closed" drill. Most of the time, a few of my shots don't even hit the paper doing that drill. I am honestly doing my best to put the training to use but can't get into NPOA to save my life.

I put my elbow under the rifle and shoot during respiratory pause but I still have vertical stringing, especially when using iron sights. Without a scope, most of my 5 shot strings are unacceptable. 

No way I'm giving up but it's frustrating to feel my muscles tensing up and my hands shaking when I'm supposed to be relaxed.

Has anyone else struggled getting into NPOA like I am now?

Harmonica,
It will sound very odd, but the key to learning NPOA is not range practice (so much) or the eyes closed drill.
The KEY is Dry Fire Practice:
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=34387.0

I like to use the scaled 12 foot AQT and fire a single AQT dry at least 3 or 4 days a week.  Takes all of 10 minutes.

To confirm improvement at the range I suggest the following:
NPOA Drill (not the eyes closed one) on a Squares target.  Post the 25 Meter squares at any angle on the target backer except vertically or horizontally.  Prep one mag 5 rounds.  The goal is one round in the each of the 5 black squares. Shoot in prone with no time limit. Take your time, relax relax relax -- wiggle those muscles a little before you open your eye to cofirm our NPOA is on target.  The only muscle tension should be in the Frim HandShake Grip of your trigger hand.  Every other muscle group needs to relax. Relax into the sling.  If your position falls apart when you relax either your Steady Hold Factors need to be corrected or sling needs to be adjusted.

Once you can consistently put one round in at least 4 of 5 squares, try the eyes closed drill if you like.  I don't think the eyes closed drill is particularly instructive to the shooter on how to move NPOA on the target, rather it's purpose is to demonstrate NPOA exists.  You will know when it begins to come to together and dry fire practice with the Steady Hold Factors and every shot by the Six Steps -- especially good follow through calling every shot will get you there.
Once it comes together in prone for you, ping me back and I have some effective pointers to verify NPOA in standing, but let's take it a step at a time.
Best wishes,
fisherdawg

Quote from: Harmonica on April 21, 2014, 06:07:41 PM
I've been to two Appleseed 25yd weekends and I practice at my local range every weekend. I can't for the life of me shoot a decent group doing the "eyes closed" drill. Most of the time, a few of my shots don't even hit the paper doing that drill. I am honestly doing my best to put the training to use but can't get into NPOA to save my life.

I put my elbow under the rifle and shoot during respiratory pause but I still have vertical stringing, especially when using iron sights. Without a scope, most of my 5 shot strings are unacceptable. 

No way I'm giving up but it's frustrating to feel my muscles tensing up and my hands shaking when I'm supposed to be relaxed.

Has anyone else struggled getting into NPOA like I am now?

BTW -- yes others experience it -- I did.  That's why it took me 5 events to get my patch because I didn't do dry fire practice.  I had stalled around 170 on the AQT.  Once I got serious about dry fire which showed me the 'little' things I was doing wrong, I shot a 212 and qualified on the last AQT on a Sunday after shooting in the 200's all weekend at that 5th event.  DRY FIRE, that's the magic.

That drill is an example, not the point. Many people find that they shoot better groups that way. But not all. The best thing that you can do is forget about shooting with your eyes closed. It doesn't matter. I'll give you another drill that you can work with, spend some time shooting at a blank piece of paper (ie, no target). See what your groups look like after you do this.

One day you will be shooting or dryfiring or otherwise slung up and it will suddenly hit you that you are relaxed. When you do that and you position is otherwise good, you will come out of recoil and reach respiratory pause with the sights perfectly aligned and the sight picture right where you want it. Then you just focus on the front sight and activate the trigger without disturbing the sights. It will be MAGIC. Until then do you best and don't worry about any specific drill.

If you keep at it, you will experience another Ah, Ha moment when your realize that you are really, truly focusing on the front sight. I guarantee that you will remember where you are and how it feels for the rest of your life.  For now though, just relax  stick to the fundamentals and shoot well.

Quote from: jmdavis on April 21, 2014, 07:39:00 PM
That drill is an example, not the point. Many people find that they shoot better groups that way. But not all. The best thing that you can do is forget about shooting with your eyes closed. It doesn't matter. I'll give you another drill that you can work with, spend some time shooting at a blank piece of paper (ie, no target). See what your groups look like after you do this.

One day you will be shooting or dryfiring or otherwise slung up and it will suddenly hit you that you are relaxed. When you do that and you position is otherwise good, you will come out of recoil and reach respiratory pause with the sights perfectly aligned and the sight picture right where you want it. Then you just focus on the front sight and activate the trigger without disturbing the sights. It will be MAGIC. Until then do you best and don't worry about any specific drill.

If you keep at it, you will experience another Ah, Ha moment when your realize that you are really, truly focusing on the front sight. I guarantee that you will remember where you are and how it feels for the rest of your life.  For now though, just relax  stick to the fundamentals and shoot well.

++1
JMD has been at this a lot longer than me.

Quote from: Harmonica on April 21, 2014, 06:07:41 PM
I've been to two Appleseed 25yd weekends and I practice at my local range every weekend. I can't for the life of me shoot a decent group doing the "eyes closed" drill. Most of the time, a few of my shots don't even hit the paper doing that drill. I am honestly doing my best to put the training to use but can't get into NPOA to save my life.

I put my elbow under the rifle and shoot during respiratory pause but I still have vertical stringing, especially when using iron sights. Without a scope, most of my 5 shot strings are unacceptable. 

No way I'm giving up but it's frustrating to feel my muscles tensing up and my hands shaking when I'm supposed to be relaxed.

Has anyone else struggled getting into NPOA like I am now?

Harmonica,
Also I'd recommend you put the scoped rifles away for awhile and focus on this issue.  Not only focus the issue, but Focus on the Front Sight let the target be blurry, fuzzy whatever.  I can barely see the silhouttes on Stage 4, but I can hit'em that way.  55 year old eyes!  You aren't wearing progressive, no-line, bifocals are you? Cause they don't work with Iron Sights.  Ask me how I know.  I do use the USMC 6 o'clock hold.  If you have older eyes like me or such, ask about that.  If not, it don't matter.

Hi Harmonica,
I bet that pretty much everyone has struggled through the same frustration when learning NPOA.  I know I did.  Once you know what it feels like to relax into it, it will be an aha moment like jmdavis said.  Here are suggestions based on what helped me:
1) Dry fire practice.  Like, a lot.  As fisherdawg said, that is the key to NPOA.
2) Do your dry fire practice when you are naturally relaxed anyway.  Right before bed or weekend mornings right after I got up were a great time for me.  If you practice when you are tense, (like when I got home from work) it is much harder to relax.  I like Slim's suggestion to lay down and rest first.
3) When you're in position, close your eyes and just breathe for a long time.  Feel your support arm fall as your shoulder relaxes (at least that's how it felt for me - not sure if it's that way for everyone, lol).  It WILL feel unnatural at first, until your muscles stretch.  It gets much easier once that happens.
Keep at it!  It will come if you dry fire practice religiously.  I try to every day.
Minutemom

Get a cheap laser bore sight. Stick a black piece of tape on the wall, sling up, relax and watch where the laser goes as you inhale/exhale. If your elbow is properly under the rifle it should track straight up and down. Watch what happens when you move your cheek, wobble your support foot or otherwise tense up. It will give you instant feedback into everything you are doing and every slight bit of extra muscle input. You can even have someone else rack the bolt and simulate recoil while dry firing with your eyes closed while they watch the laser. If you are not squeezing the trigger straight back smoothly, the laser will bounce left or right. If it bounces low and right, you might not have the rifle snug against the shoulder and may be gripping your other fingers tighter as you pull the trigger. If it bounces up and right you could be "heeling" (pushing) the rifle with your support hand. Up and left you may be tensing your trigger shoulder. Essentially, whichever way the laser bounces, cross reference the yellow "diagnostic" handout you got at Appleseed and it should give you a good idea without wasting a single round of ammo.

Try the laser, if you like,  but don't get too caught up in it either. Relaxation will come in time.


There's a story about Olympic Pistol shooter Don Hamiliton that I think is a good one. It shows that exercises don't always show what they purport to.

You all know what Ball and Dummy is, right. Well some fellow Navy Shooters decided to play a joke on Hamilton one time and they replaced a live round in one of his magazines at practice with a dummy round. The result was described to me as him "burying the muzzle in the ground." Now in this case the shooter was an Olympian and held the National Conventional Pistol record for more than 30 years. In other words he knew what he was doing and had the medals and targets to prove it. ]

Practice and don't worry about the exercises.

Thanks for the advice and encouragement. Y'all have given me plenty of things to try and I'll put all of it to use as I practice. 

Quote from: Harmonica on April 22, 2014, 06:11:58 PM
Thanks for the advice and encouragement. Y'all have given me plenty of things to try and I'll put all of it to use as I practice. 

Let us know how it goes.  We're rootin' for ya!

I stayed with iron sights for 4 Appleseeds, but was unable to do better than the mid-180's from AS # 2, 3, and 4 with iron sights on a 10/22 carbine.  Then, at the end of AS 4, I borrowed a scoped rifle, didn't even sight it in with my ammo, and shot a 194. (Thanks, nomadichillbilly!)  At  AS # 5, I sighted in my own scoped rifle with the ammo I was using and shot in the 160's.  The factory stock, although it had worked fine with Techsights, failed miserably in terms of  giving a consistent cheek weld with a scope.  I replaced the high scope rings  that came with the scope, with lower rings, and also switched to a stock with a higher comb that actually fit me.  With a good cheek weld, and with a stock that fit me, and with a scope, I made Rifleman at AS # 6 (214) at age 57.

I wear progressive no-line bifocals, and my vision always blurs out for front sight posts on 10/22 carbines by around 1 pm in 90+F Florida heat.  Hydration helps slow the blurring, but my groups of 2 MOA from the mornings jump to 6 MOA by 2 pm with a 10/22 carbine with Techsights.  This happens as my near point for being able to focus on the front post goes from about 16 inches in the mornings to about 6 inches longer than the short 10/22 carbine barrel length by early afternoon.  When that happens, my groups degrade.

Yet, with an M1 Garand,  I can maintain 3 MOA with iron sights easily in the heat at 200 yards. But, the barrel length is much longer, too!

This thread has started me wondering if I were to switch to non-progressive lenses if I might still could use a 10/22 carbine with Techsights and shoot score!   The problem is that the front post blurs out with the shorter barrels.  (Where I normally shoot, the AS shoots are limited to .22LR only, so the Garand has not yet been an option.). Is the key to this simply having an optician set the sharp vision point at around the distance from my eyes to the 10/22 carbine front post, and going with single vision lenses, in place of with no-line progressives?

(With my present scoped 10/22, shooting in prone with a sling, I regularly can get 9-10 shots all touching at 25 meters.)

Quote from: fisherdawg on April 22, 2014, 06:16:41 PM

Quote from: Harmonica on April 22, 2014, 06:11:58 PM
Thanks for the advice and encouragement. Y'all have given me plenty of things to try and I'll put all of it to use as I practice. 

Let us know how it goes.  We're rootin' for ya!

I'm getting there slow but sure. I can already tell my sling was adjusted too long.

We'd be glad to have you on the line down here in TN next time you're in the area.

Quote from: Guntuckian on April 22, 2014, 09:07:30 PM
I stayed with iron sights for 4 Appleseeds, but was unable to do better than the mid-180's from AS # 2, 3, and 4 with iron sights on a 10/22 carbine.  Then, at the end of AS 4, I borrowed a scoped rifle, didn't even sight it in with my ammo, and shot a 194. (Thanks, nomadichillbilly!)  At  AS # 5, I sighted in my own scoped rifle with the ammo I was using and shot in the 160's.  The factory stock, although it had worked fine with Techsights, failed miserably in terms of  giving a consistent cheek weld with a scope.  I replaced the high scope rings  that came with the scope, with lower rings, and also switched to a stock with a higher comb that actually fit me.  With a good cheek weld, and with a stock that fit me, and with a scope, I made Rifleman at AS # 6 (214) at age 57.

I wear progressive no-line bifocals, and my vision always blurs out for front sight posts on 10/22 carbines by around 1 pm in 90+F Florida heat.  Hydration helps slow the blurring, but my groups of 2 MOA from the mornings jump to 6 MOA by 2 pm with a 10/22 carbine with Techsights.  This happens as my near point for being able to focus on the front post goes from about 16 inches in the mornings to about 6 inches longer than the short 10/22 carbine barrel length by early afternoon.  When that happens, my groups degrade.

Yet, with an M1 Garand,  I can maintain 3 MOA with iron sights easily in the heat at 200 yards. But, the barrel length is much longer, too!

This thread has started me wondering if I were to switch to non-progressive lenses if I might still could use a 10/22 carbine with Techsights and shoot score!   The problem is that the front post blurs out with the shorter barrels.  (Where I normally shoot, the AS shoots are limited to .22LR only, so the Garand has not yet been an option.). Is the key to this simply having an optician set the sharp vision point at around the distance from my eyes to the 10/22 carbine front post, and going with single vision lenses, in place of with no-line progressives?

(With my present scoped 10/22, shooting in prone with a sling, I regularly can get 9-10 shots all touching at 25 meters.)

Well my eyes are OK I just can't shoot worth a crap. I figure even if I'm off target, the shots should still be tight groups if I'm in NPOA.

I shot three Rifleman scores in a row at my second weekend but it felt like cheating using a scope and I muscled onto the target a lot.

I'll be shooting a carry handle equipped ar15 at a KD in May so I need to get these irons figured out!

Take care and keep at it, my friend.

Quote from: Guntuckian on April 22, 2014, 09:07:30 PM
I stayed with iron sights for 4 Appleseeds, but was unable to do better than the mid-180's from AS # 2, 3, and 4 with iron sights on a 10/22 carbine.  Then, at the end of AS 4, I borrowed a scoped rifle, didn't even sight it in with my ammo, and shot a 194. (Thanks, nomadichillbilly!)  At  AS # 5, I sighted in my own scoped rifle with the ammo I was using and shot in the 160's.  The factory stock, although it had worked fine with Techsights, failed miserably in terms of  giving a consistent cheek weld with a scope.  I replaced the high scope rings  that came with the scope, with lower rings, and also switched to a stock with a higher comb that actually fit me.  With a good cheek weld, and with a stock that fit me, and with a scope, I made Rifleman at AS # 6 (214) at age 57.

I wear progressive no-line bifocals, and my vision always blurs out for front sight posts on 10/22 carbines by around 1 pm in 90+F Florida heat.  Hydration helps slow the blurring, but my groups of 2 MOA from the mornings jump to 6 MOA by 2 pm with a 10/22 carbine with Techsights.  This happens as my near point for being able to focus on the front post goes from about 16 inches in the mornings to about 6 inches longer than the short 10/22 carbine barrel length by early afternoon.  When that happens, my groups degrade.

Yet, with an M1 Garand,  I can maintain 3 MOA with iron sights easily in the heat at 200 yards. But, the barrel length is much longer, too!

This thread has started me wondering if I were to switch to non-progressive lenses if I might still could use a 10/22 carbine with Techsights and shoot score!   The problem is that the front post blurs out with the shorter barrels.  (Where I normally shoot, the AS shoots are limited to .22LR only, so the Garand has not yet been an option.). Is the key to this simply having an optician set the sharp vision point at around the distance from my eyes to the 10/22 carbine front post, and going with single vision lenses, in place of with no-line progressives?

(With my present scoped 10/22, shooting in prone with a sling, I regularly can get 9-10 shots all touching at 25 meters.)

Guntuckian,
As a 55 year old with the same issues, I can tell you need a set of single vision glasses with a focal length that allows sharp focus on the front sight if you want to achieve high cores with iron sights.  V, Shoot Boss from California, clued me into the Revision Military Sawfly glasses with the prescription inserts.  All my optometrist / optician did was make the lenses with my distance correction only.  But you don't need anything fancy, just good protection.  It works very well for the Garand and pretty well with the 10/22, but the sad truth is you may different glasses for different barrel lengths.  I might experiment with stick-on lenses at some point too.  Shooting KD well with irons, especially steel targets, is so dang fun I think it's worth the trouble.  After all you only  need one set of glasses for similiar barrel lengths, but good scopes ain't cheap, neither!

Quote from: fisherdawg on April 22, 2014, 11:38:10 PM

Quote from: Guntuckian on April 22, 2014, 09:07:30 PM
I stayed with iron sights for 4 Appleseeds, but was unable to do better than the mid-180's from AS # 2, 3, and 4 with iron sights on a 10/22 carbine.  Then, at the end of AS 4, I borrowed a scoped rifle, didn't even sight it in with my ammo, and shot a 194. (Thanks, nomadichillbilly!)  At  AS # 5, I sighted in my own scoped rifle with the ammo I was using and shot in the 160's.  The factory stock, although it had worked fine with Techsights, failed miserably in terms of  giving a consistent cheek weld with a scope.  I replaced the high scope rings  that came with the scope, with lower rings, and also switched to a stock with a higher comb that actually fit me.  With a good cheek weld, and with a stock that fit me, and with a scope, I made Rifleman at AS # 6 (214) at age 57.

I wear progressive no-line bifocals, and my vision always blurs out for front sight posts on 10/22 carbines by around 1 pm in 90+F Florida heat.  Hydration helps slow the blurring, but my groups of 2 MOA from the mornings jump to 6 MOA by 2 pm with a 10/22 carbine with Techsights.  This happens as my near point for being able to focus on the front post goes from about 16 inches in the mornings to about 6 inches longer than the short 10/22 carbine barrel length by early afternoon.  When that happens, my groups degrade.

Yet, with an M1 Garand,  I can maintain 3 MOA with iron sights easily in the heat at 200 yards. But, the barrel length is much longer, too!

This thread has started me wondering if I were to switch to non-progressive lenses if I might still could use a 10/22 carbine with Techsights and shoot score!   The problem is that the front post blurs out with the shorter barrels.  (Where I normally shoot, the AS shoots are limited to .22LR only, so the Garand has not yet been an option.). Is the key to this simply having an optician set the sharp vision point at around the distance from my eyes to the 10/22 carbine front post, and going with single vision lenses, in place of with no-line progressives?

(With my present scoped 10/22, shooting in prone with a sling, I regularly can get 9-10 shots all touching at 25 meters.)

Guntuckian,
As a 55 year old with the same issues, I can tell you need a set of single vision glasses with a focal length that allows sharp focus on the front sight if you want to achieve high cores with iron sights.  V, Shoot Boss from California, clued me into the Revision Military Sawfly glasses with the prescription inserts.  All my optometrist / optician did was make the lenses with my distance correction only.  But you don't need anything fancy, just good protection.  It works very well for the Garand and pretty well with the 10/22, but the sad truth is you may different glasses for different barrel lengths.  I might experiment with stick-on lenses at some point too.  Shooting KD well with irons, especially steel targets, is so dang fun I think it's worth the trouble.  After all you only  need one set of glasses for similiar barrel lengths, but good scopes ain't cheap, neither!

46 yo with terrible vision and progressive lenses... I struggle with irons on 4 MOA targets at 25m but I do decent at 100y on 4MOA targets. Granted, different sight radius...

Another option for the Rx shooting glasses is the ESS ICE Naro.

Fisherdawg, thanks for the tip on the stick-on lenses... Didn't know they exist!

Guntuckian, my partner PleasedtoAim uses progressive lenses for normal life, but couldn't shoot with them at all. Something about those lenses really screws up sight alignment. She got a single-plane Sawfly and immediately shot Rifleman  with Tech-Sights. We price-shopped hard after the optometrist recommended some fancy "sports" glasses for $600, and found the Revision Military four-color set was the best bargain at under $200 shipped from Optics Planet. I also have the Sawfly for my astigmatism. Other advantages are that the temples are thin so they don't press into your skull under earmuffs, and the lenses conform well to the face providing outstanding protection.

Quote from: FiremanBob on April 23, 2014, 11:26:11 AM
Guntuckian, my partner PleasedtoAim uses progressive lenses for normal life, but couldn't shoot with them at all. Something about those lenses really screws up sight alignment. She got a single-plane Sawfly and immediately shot Rifleman  with Tech-Sights. We price-shopped hard after the optometrist recommended some fancy "sports" glasses for $600, and found the Revision Military four-color set was the best bargain at under $200 shipped from Optics Planet. I also have the Sawfly for my astigmatism. Other advantages are that the temples are thin so they don't press into your skull under earmuffs, and the lenses conform well to the face providing outstanding protection.

Also you may want to view the review on lucky gunner on mil spec versus regular eye pro.  Saw Fly and simliar provide a much higher degree of safety.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/eye-protection-shooting-glasses-review/

Don't ever feel like you are cheating when you use a scope. A scope does not make shoot better. Let me repeat that. A scope does not make you shoot better.

It helps you to see better. For some people that improves their shooting. For those with good eyes their scores are essentially the same.

+1, absolutely, +1 on jmd's comment below. 

Rather, sometimes (especially)  a scoped .22lr at 25 meters can make good shooting harder if the magnification is enough to show each hit to the shooter.  If the shooter responds by 'fussing' the next shoot to center of the target by 'muscling' rather than applying the fundamentals (Steady Hold Factors / Six Steps / NPOA Verified on Target) on every shot and shooting in Rifleman's Cadence then the shooter will not be practicing the fundamentals into a habit. Instead they will have a larger group.

I do not consider it cheating whatsoever to use my scoped .22lr in NRA Smallbore -- Standing No Sling ('Offhand') at 40/60/77/100 yards at 1-2 MOA targets. Rather it is application of the fundamentals with scoped rifle that will lead to high scores or meat on the table when hunting.

Quote from: jmdavis on April 23, 2014, 04:23:49 PM
Don't ever feel like you are cheating when you use a scope. A scope does not make shoot better. Let me repeat that. A scope does not make you shoot better.

It helps you to see better. For some people that improves their shooting. For those with good eyes their scores are essentially the same.

Thanks for all the tips!  I am now seriously looking into getting the Revision Sawfly with prescription inserts!  I didn't know these existed!

My vision, as tested two months ago, is 20/15 when corrected with Vari-lux Comfort Fit no line progressives that I have worn for 18 months.   Also, I have astigmatism and require a slight prism in my prescription. This 20/15 was measured with polycarbonate lenses, and they are impact resistant, as I also regularly do machining and wanted protection when running either the lathe or mill in addition to safety googles.  So, my vision is still good, but I can definitely tell my near point focusing ability varies with time of day. 

What was most aggravating in my quest to  AS Rifleman at age 56-57 is that I could remember easily killing groundhogs regularly as a teenager under field conditions on my grandparents' farms shooting prone with factory iron sights shooting  a 30-06 at paced distances exceeding 300-350 yards, even without a sling.  But, back then, I could focus clearly on the front post, too! 

I have not found much help from either my optometrist or ophthalmologist, both of whom are non-shooters, in understanding why the no-line progressives don't work with iron sights, and how to solve the front post clarity problem.  But, I know they don't work!  They had led me to believe that the no-line progressive would work!

I also had to go with a scope that could correct parallax at 25 meters, when shooting with the no-line progressives, as a 4x scope with parallax corrected at 75 yards didn't work in practice with my prescription in keeping my groups on target unless my cheek weld was exactly and precisely constant.  Yet, with a scope with parallax corrected at 25 meters, the no-line progressives did work, and my cheek weld could vary up to about 1/4 inch, as experimented with using masking tape on the stock to index.

I am practicing for a KD AS, and have been working on how best to prepare with both an M4 clone scoped and with an M1 Garand (obtained through the CMP courtesy of my AS certificate!). So, the Revision Sawfly option sounds like a very good solution!  Scoped may not be my only option!  Time to experiment with the Revision Sawfly option!

(Draken, I am looking forward to shooting with you at the KD, old friend!)

Ebay is your friend on this one. NEW Revision Sawfly surplus $28.45 free shipping. http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-MILITARY-REVISION-SAWFLY-MISSION-CRITICAL-EYE-WEAR-APEL-SYSTEM-KIT-NEW-/251475092279?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a8d156337

Rx Insert $10!  I have purchased from wwarbucks
http://www.ebay.com/itm/REVISION-SAWFLY-PRESCRIPTION-INSERTS-/291070632352?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43c52961a0

His new in pack sawfly 38.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/REVISION-SAWFLY-GLASSES-KIT-IMPACT-RESISTANT-REGULAR-SIZE-NEW-IN-PACK-/290870806802?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43b9404912

He will combine shipping and as I said I had a good experience with him.

Thanks, Stand!  Have ordered these!  My optician can make and install the polycarbonate inserts!

Ebay is definitely a good approach!

Quote from: Guntuckian on April 23, 2014, 11:09:34 PM
Thanks for all the tips!  I am now seriously looking into getting the Revision Sawfly with prescription inserts!  I didn't know these existed!

My vision, as tested two months ago, is 20/15 when corrected with Vari-lux Comfort Fit no line progressives that I have worn for 18 months.   Also, I have astigmatism and require a slight prism in my prescription. This 20/15 was measured with polycarbonate lenses, and they are impact resistant, as I also regularly do machining and wanted protection when running either the lathe or mill in addition to safety googles.  So, my vision is still good, but I can definitely tell my near point focusing ability varies with time of day. 

What was most aggravating in my quest to  AS Rifleman at age 56-57 is that I could remember easily killing groundhogs regularly as a teenager under field conditions on my grandparents' farms shooting prone with factory iron sights shooting  a 30-06 at paced distances exceeding 300-350 yards, even without a sling.  But, back then, I could focus clearly on the front post, too! 

I have not found much help from either my optometrist or ophthalmologist, both of whom are non-shooters, in understanding why the no-line progressives don't work with iron sights, and how to solve the front post clarity problem.  But, I know they don't work!  They had led me to believe that the no-line progressive would work!

I also had to go with a scope that could correct parallax at 25 meters, when shooting with the no-line progressives, as a 4x scope with parallax corrected at 75 yards didn't work in practice with my prescription in keeping my groups on target unless my cheek weld was exactly and precisely constant.  Yet, with a scope with parallax corrected at 25 meters, the no-line progressives did work, and my cheek weld could vary up to about 1/4 inch, as experimented with using masking tape on the stock to index.

I am practicing for a KD AS, and have been working on how best to prepare with both an M4 clone scoped and with an M1 Garand (obtained through the CMP courtesy of my AS certificate!). So, the Revision Sawfly option sounds like a very good solution!  Scoped may not be my only option!  Time to experiment with the Revision Sawfly option!

(Draken, I am looking forward to shooting with you at the KD, old friend!)

I'm very loyal to my optometrist too, but I may look around for one who's a shooter for this bit of work....

I shoot the scope with my progressives generally and consistent cheek is essential in my experience.

personally I would place an order for single vision lenses from Zenni Optical or other inexpensive online retailer before spending alot of of money on "special" glasses. For rifles with AR sight radiuses the basic math is distance perscription +.75  for a hyperfocal focus (essentially 2x the sight radius. This will not put either the front sight or the target in perfect focus but via accomodation and the peep  sights you should be able to focus on the front sight and identify your target and sight picture. Another relatively inexpensive option is to have Bob Jones (http://www.bjonessights.com/glasses.html) make you a pair of astigmatism corrected glasses with round lenses that allow you to clock the lens to whatever angle you need. Many people find that their astigmatism axis may change by a few degrees throughout a day of shooting. All of this info is for iron sights, if you want to focus on the scope you seem like you have something workable already.

Takeaways:

1. Progressive bifocals do not lend themselves to shooting with irons.
2. For AR length sight radiuses adding +.75 diopters to your distance scrip works for many people.
3. round lenses allow you to fine-tune your astigmatism correction over the course of a day.


Mike

Well, here goes my 2 cents worth.  A lot of really good info from guys with a LOT of experience so far in this thread.  But, you mentioned, you still get vertical stringing.  According to my handout entitled talking targets, one possibility for vertical stringing is the positioning of the butt stock in your shoulder pocket.  You could be doing everything else correctly, but still get vertical stringing if the butt of your stock moves up or down.  Is it smooth and slick?  Ahh ha!  Peel and stick sandpaper for a quick fix.    Just something else to check out.

Quote from: RODGE on April 24, 2014, 04:15:15 PM
Well, here goes my 2 cents worth.  A lot of really good info from guys with a LOT of experience so far in this thread.  But, you mentioned, you still get vertical stringing.  According to my handout entitled talking targets, one possibility for vertical stringing is the positioning of the butt stock in your shoulder pocket.  You could be doing everything else correctly, but still get vertical stringing if the butt of your stock moves up or down.  Is it smooth and slick?  Ahh ha!  Peel and stick sandpaper for a quick fix.    Just something else to check out.

I have had problems with it sliding down when in position for longer strings of fire and I had considered grip tape. I'm going to get some and see if that helps . Thanks for reminding me!

When I was having trouble with vertical stringing, it turned out for me being I wasn't getting all the air out of my lungs consistently.  Simply exhaling and shooting at a normal respiratory pause didn't get all the air out the same amount every time for me, depending on how tired I was.  But, I have had asthma for many decades, too.  The solution for me was pursing my lips and blowing the air out, both for sighting in and shooting, as asthmatics were once taught, using pursed lips upon feeling lung tightness, when exhaling on stages 3 and 4 and when sighting in.   I then have several seconds before my vision fades due to oxygenation exhaustion.  Until I learned this, I had vertical stringing that was about 1/2 to 3/4 inch top to bottom at 25 meters.  When I learned this, I started getting vertical stringing well under 1/4 inch, often with 7 or more rounds touching POI at 25 meters.

On the other hand, I still sometimes get horizontal stringing that is correlated with heartbeats that seems to be just under 1/2 inch when in prone on stage 4 at times.  I can see this in the scope even when set for 4x.  I have been using a leather sling, but no shooting jacket, just a long sleeve shirt.  If I shoot without the long sleeve shirt, the left to right movement with heart beats gets worse.

Being I shoot in the Florida heat, a shooting jacket just doesn't work longer than 10-15 minutes, or I get overheated.  The pulse patch on it does suppress this heartbeat stringing, though.

That being said, would a web sling work better for suppressing heartbeat L-R stringing movements than a leather sling when shooting with just a long sleeve shirt?   I haven't tried this yet, as I just got a web sling since the last Appleseed.  Anyone have any experience with horizontal stringing with heartbeats?

I have tried tying a bandana around my left upper arm, simulating a pulse patch, and this did help reduce the horizontal stringing, when shooting with a leather sling.  But, the bandana works loose easily when transitioning on stage 3.