Project Appleseed

I recently traded off a couple of rifles and got myself an AR-style DCM service rifle.  So, of course, it's got a 20-inch barrel with the long A2-style handguards.  I'm finding prone position difficult.  My left arm doesn't seem quite long enough. 

Here's what I mean.  I've been using a Marlin 25N at Appleseed events.  When I'm in prone, my left hand slides forward right up to the front sling swivel, and I get a very solid-feeling stop there.  I'm able to keep my fingers completely relaxed, because my hand stays in place on the forend due to the sling stud and the sling.  But when I'm in prone with my new AR, my left hand doesn't make it all the way forward to the sling mount.  I can reach that far forward, but it's a very unnatural feeling position, and it's not very solid and sturdy.  So to keep my left hand where I want it, I actually have to grip the forend with my fingers.  And even then, under recoil, the rifle jumps a bit, and my hand slides forward a little. 

Maybe this isn't the kind of problem that can be solved online, and I'll just bring it with me to my next Appleseed and see if I can get some help there.  But I figure someone out there may have had this same problem, and there may be an easy fix.  For one thing, I don't have a shooting glove--maybe that would add enough bulk so that the sling would hold my hand in place better?  Any ideas?  Thanks!


Edit: Oops.  I just noticed the thread below about the support arm.  It's a very similar question.  Maybe I'll find answers there.  Sorry--I should have looked more carefully before posting this!

Post again if you don't find your answer. 
Good luck!

So far I haven't found it....one difference is going to be that I can't slide my sling swivel forward, I can't add any kind of hand stop to the stock, I can't adjust my LOP--at least, not if I want to keep it service rifle competition legal, which I do.  But there are a bunch of ideas in there that I'll need to try out about possibly making changes to my overall position.  Tons of good stuff--and a video I really need to watch. 

Its all about index to target.  30-40 degrees is a good starting point, yours may be more extreme.

And, you'll find the exact angle when you adjust your NPOA. Whatever angle it adjusts out to is YOUR angle.

If you are looking to shoot service rifle comps, most of those guys run a heavy shooting glove and coat which will take up some of the space if you run your hand out at the swivel (which is typical there to get a low position).  They will also have a grippy surface on the glove and occasionally spray sticky substances on their glove.  Service rifle also gives 1 min per shot for the slowfire prone sections (it's really slow fire for us) so there is plenty of time to rebuild your position with each shot.  Finally, the serious service rifle will have lead weights underneath the handguards and in the buttstock pocket to bring the rifle up to about 17 pounds so there is no recoil. 

In an Appleseed context, yes the front swivel is too far out for most to get a stable position.  On my service rifle-legal AR, I run my hand in against the magwell at Appleseed.  It minimizes my hand slipping by keeping my forearm more vertical.  It also serves as a repeatable position so if my hand does slip I can easily put it right back where it should be. 

Quote from: Caliper on January 29, 2014, 05:17:58 PM
If you are looking to shoot service rifle comps, most of those guys run a heavy shooting glove and coat which will take up some of the space if you run your hand out at the swivel (which is typical there to get a low position).  They will also have a grippy surface on the glove and occasionally spray sticky substances on their glove.  Service rifle also gives 1 min per shot for the slowfire prone sections (it's really slow fire for us) so there is plenty of time to rebuild your position with each shot.  Finally, the serious service rifle will have lead weights underneath the handguards and in the buttstock pocket to bring the rifle up to about 17 pounds so there is no recoil. 

In an Appleseed context, yes the front swivel is too far out for most to get a stable position.  On my service rifle-legal AR, I run my hand in against the magwell at Appleseed.  It minimizes my hand slipping by keeping my forearm more vertical.  It also serves as a repeatable position so if my hand does slip I can easily put it right back where it should be.

Thanks a lot for this, Caliper.  Thanks to ItsanSKS and Nickle, too. 

That all makes a lot of sense.  So I'm planning to use the rifle at a KD Appleseed this summer, and I'll just prepare for that by using the tip here about pulling my hand back the mag well.  That's a nice idea. 

I just spent some time on the floor trying out various positions and seeing if I could make it work.  I tried to change my orientation to the target quite a bit , and it did seem to help, but I was still not feeling quite right.  Maybe if I do eventually get a glove and the sticky spray, that'll get the hand position to settle down.  Regarding competition--so the shooters do tend to get down low to the ground?  I actually saw a picture that sort of threw me off when I was doing some research earlier.  This website shows Sergeant Green in prone (you've got to scroll just a bit to see it), and he's really not in the sort of prone I recognized from Appleseed.  Elbow is not under the rifle, for one thing.  And he's way low.  His left hand is right up against the swivel, though!  I knew when I saw it that this man knows what he's doing, and he wasn't just taking up a bad position.  So is this a standard service rifle competition prone position?  If so, that explains a lot to me about why I felt thrown off trying to take up a prone position with my AR. 

As far as shooting in actual competitions--I probably won't be looking to do that right away, but I do hope next year to swing out to Camp Butner and maybe try a shot or two.  I'm hoping to get to some of the shoots at Ramseur, too!  Mainly, I'm hoping my kids might get into competitive shooting, rather than that I myself will do a lot of it.  That's the only reason I went with the AR rather than a Garand.  I thought the AR would be way better for them to learn on, since there's so little recoil to worry about.  But I guess we'll have to practice some new shooting positions, too!

To simulate your forward sling attachment being nearer, add a "zip tie" around the hand guard and sling.  Leave it a bit loose until you find the right spot then cinch it down.  Not sexy but certainly field expedient.  Hope it helps.

Quote from: SureShotSpartan on January 30, 2014, 03:20:32 PM
To simulate your forward sling attachment being nearer, add a "zip tie" around the hand guard and sling.  Leave it a bit loose until you find the right spot then cinch it down.  Not sexy but certainly field expedient.  Hope it helps.

Thanks for that suggestion.  I wondered a bit about that yesterday as I was fiddling around with my position.  I'd just need to zip it maybe two inches or so from the end of the handguard, and I'd have a good solid stop there.  That might be an easier way to use the rifle in the short term, at Appleseed events, rather than pulling my hand all the way back to the magwell.  Next time I get out to the range, I'll try both. 

A couple of empty cases and a bit of vet wrap make a quite serviceable hand stop.

Moving your support hand forward on the forend has the effect of loosening the sling. That insecure feeling you're getting as you do so might be that. Try tightening the sling so that the tension feels correct when your hand is where you want it. In fact, sling tension, not a hard stop, should help your hand stay in place. 

In some competitions using the very low position they are allowed to mono-pod off of the magazine.  This is an Appleseed no no.  Try more sling tension as mentioned above.

NRA high-power rifle rule: 5.4 Rifle Magazine-- The magazine of the rifle may touch the person or clothing of the shooter, but may not touch the ground or be used to provide artificial support.

CMP rule on prone: 8.2.3 Prone Position
The shooter lies on the ground, with the head towards the target, with the rifle supported by both hands, the shoulder and cheek. A sling may be used in the prone position. The rifle may not touch the ground or rest on any object or support. No part of the arm ahead of the elbow may touch the ground or any artificial support. The magazine may touch the shooting jacket, but may not compress the jacket sleeve to the ground so as to provide artificial support.

The converse of what Bob said is also true. Tightening the sling too much will not let you move your support hand back as far. Since you have to develop the prone position that works best for you. What you may want to do is loosen the sling (say .5 or 1 inch) and then pull your hand back as far as you can (the sling will probably stop it well before you reach the mag well). This will help you to have a higher position and may help to keep your head more upright and make it easier to center your eye behind the rear sight. You might need to loosen the sling more or less than 1 inch.

When you find the position and hand position that works. Mark the forend with the location of your middle support finger, I use tape. If you have questions about what I mean feel free to ask. It helps if you wear a glove for this (a work glove works ok.


Mike

As usual, Mike hits the x-ring. So to sum up as I see it (I may be wrong and if so would welcome learning the truth):

1. If you want to put your hand farther forward, you may have to tighten your sling to get the same amount of tension on it, to keep your hand in place.

2. If the sling is preventing you from putting your hand where you want it and pushing your hand forward, you want to loosen the sling so it allows your hand to go where you want it.

3. Wherever you want your hand, mark that spot with tape so you can easily repeat it.

4. You cannot use the mag as a "monopod" in at least the major, sanctioned competitions that I know. I have also seen malfunctions from sitting the mag on the ground, as it can push the mag too high in the action and interfere with bolt movement.

I have tried the very low position and find it doesn't work well for me, for two reasons:

1. It forces holding the head in an uncomfortable position to see through the sights. I prefer to get my shoulders up and head relatively erect to have natural, straight-on vision;
2. The sling doesn't provide much support with the arm extended. I prefer a good triangle so that my forearm bones are bearing the rifle's weight, stabilized by the sling. Also, with the forearm more vertical the proper sling tension helps keep my hand in place on the stock.

Bob,

If you want to move your hand farther back on the AR and raise your position, you will want to loosen the sling. It will get tighter as your hand moves back when you are slung up.

Hand to sling swivel is difficult with the AR if you want a good position. It takes LONG arms. Most High Power shooters don't bother.

Thanks again to all for this great information!

Quote from: Stand on February 01, 2014, 09:27:26 PM
In some competitions using the very low position they are allowed to mono-pod off of the magazine.

I'm retired military.

I've seen a lot of recommendations there to monopod the rifle.

Well it's a dumb "recruit trick", a really bad practice. It can exacerbate jams as it does tend to push the magazine harder into the mag well. Those magazines are made from sheet metal, so the do have strength limitations.

There are much better ways to get some stability. Plus, it affects the forward elbow position (try it and see).

Overall, it really isn't a smart idea, for the long term. And, now you know why we consider it a no-no here.

I hate the monopod tech. causes malfs!

Thanks Mike. If what I wrote wasn't clear, I was saying exactly that.

Quote from: jmdavis on February 02, 2014, 10:54:09 AM
Bob,

If you want to move your hand farther back on the AR and raise your position, you will want to loosen the sling. It will get tighter as your hand moves back when you are slung up.

Hand to sling swivel is difficult with the AR if you want a good position. It takes LONG arms. Most High Power shooters don't bother.

I shoot High Power as well with an AR15 Service Rifle, and was initially having the same sorts of problems.  My arms are fairly short, and moving my hand all the way out to the sling swivel is not an option.  Here's what I found that worked (some of this has already been pointed out in this thread).

1) A shooting glove does help, but by itself did not solve the problem.  My hand would still slip around on the foregrip under recoil, and that's no good.

2) A tighter sling will also help.  Most shooters at our High Power matches figure if you can still feel your fingers after the slow fire prone stage, your sling isn't nearly tight enough.  Appleseed doesn't generally teach a sling quite as tight as that, but the tighter it is the better, as long as you don't have it so tight that you compromise other parts of a good shooting position.  As an example, at one point I had the sling SO tight it was essentially pushing my position to be more "beside" the rifle than "behind" the rifle.  That was no good either.  Find the right tension that works for you, the tighter the better.

3) This one was pointed out to me by Aftermath, as I was still having trouble with my hand slipping, especially when things got hot and muggy out.  Make sure your support elbow is directly under the rifle.  As it turned out, my support elbow was a few inches to the left of "directly" under the rifle, and as soon as I moved it under the rifle my hand stayed perfectly steady on the foregrip, with a shooting glove and good sling tension.  This was the final piece for me to solve this particular problem.

Now I know it can be difficult to get your arm under the rifle with that magazine in the way, the solution to which is 10 round mags.  At High Power matches I now use nothing but 10 round mags, as they stay out of the way much better.

Safe shooting,

Agrivere

Once again I'll be a voice in the wilderness. The use of a magazine as a monopod is a good technique to have in your tool box. The important thing to take into account is what it's been referred to "KYW" (know your weapon). In this particular case, rifles. ARs: 30 round mags make great monopods. I have never had one fail or break (plastic or metal), and have never heard about any well documented cases of this being a trend to worry about. Having said that, 20 round, 10 round or 5 round (only capacity legal in Florida to hunt with), because of their height, make lousy monopods. Just a matter of KYW. AKs are in the same boat. One well known trainer advocates conditioning by doing push-ups with the AK supported only by the magazine.

Those of you who use FALs, PTR 91s or anything else, do your own experiment (I have zero experience with them), but do not adopt the blanket statement "monopods are bad for your health".

On the other hand, the R55 Benchmark (Thompson) will fail to feed if you even look at the magazine the wrong way. When I use mine, the space around the magazine is off limits. As long as I'm aware of and respect its limitations, I have no problems.  Again, KYW.

Outside of the Appleseed community, every nationally known trainer I know off, will mention monopoding as a viable option in certain circumstances. But they are teaching tactics, not achieving a qualifying score. Appleseed levels-up the playing field by controlling the equipment used and how it's employed.

But it's important to be aware that monopoding is a crutch, the same as using a bipod or a sand bag or anything that externally supports the rifle. I look at Appleseed as teaching basic marksmanship; the same as was taught to me at MCRD Parris Island light years ago during initial rifle qualification. Monopoding wasn't even mentioned because M-1 Garands used no magazine.  Once you master the basics, the gloves come off, anything that helps accomplish the mission is fair game.

During Appleseed events, teach the Appleseed curriculum, those heading to the sand box or those patrolling the "thin blue line", need to be aware that in the real world there is no black or white; only gray.
AJ

Quote from: Agrivere on February 04, 2014, 03:16:32 PM
I shoot High Power as well with an AR15 Service Rifle, and was initially having the same sorts of problems.  My arms are fairly short, and moving my hand all the way out to the sling swivel is not an option.  Here's what I found that worked (some of this has already been pointed out in this thread).

1) A shooting glove does help, but by itself did not solve the problem.  My hand would still slip around on the foregrip under recoil, and that's no good.

2) A tighter sling will also help.  Most shooters at our High Power matches figure if you can still feel your fingers after the slow fire prone stage, your sling isn't nearly tight enough.  Appleseed doesn't generally teach a sling quite as tight as that, but the tighter it is the better, as long as you don't have it so tight that you compromise other parts of a good shooting position.  As an example, at one point I had the sling SO tight it was essentially pushing my position to be more "beside" the rifle than "behind" the rifle.  That was no good either.  Find the right tension that works for you, the tighter the better.

3) This one was pointed out to me by Aftermath, as I was still having trouble with my hand slipping, especially when things got hot and muggy out.  Make sure your support elbow is directly under the rifle.  As it turned out, my support elbow was a few inches to the left of "directly" under the rifle, and as soon as I moved it under the rifle my hand stayed perfectly steady on the foregrip, with a shooting glove and good sling tension.  This was the final piece for me to solve this particular problem.

Now I know it can be difficult to get your arm under the rifle with that magazine in the way, the solution to which is 10 round mags.  At High Power matches I now use nothing but 10 round mags, as they stay out of the way much better.

Safe shooting,

Agrivere

I'm sorry I missed this before.  Thanks for your suggestions!

Many of the most experienced trainers in the country teach the monopod technique in carbine classes with the AR-15, and it is very commonly used in multigun competition with good results.  Just about every military that fields the AK teaches it as well.  If you tell shooters that it is a bad technique, you risk having our program seen as not serious by experienced shooters who train in other disciplines besides Appleseed. 

I tell shooters that it is a perfectly good technique, but that it is against the rules on the AQT because the scoring is set up with the assumption that everyone us using a shooting sling.

AK and M16 platforms, monopoding on the magazine works fine.  M1A/M14?  Not so much.  There are also plenty of other rifles that do not do so well with it, including the Ruger 10/22 w/ extended magazines.   

Is it a tool to have in your toolbox?  Sure, but one ought not rely upon a technique that is only suitable for a handful of rifles.  The techniques that we teach are rifle independent.