Project Appleseed

There are many Marlin 795s in service on the Appleseed trail, and with the release of the 795 LTR, there are sure to be many more.  However, the Marlin 795 suffers from two main deficiencies -- the lack of drop free mags, and the presence of a magazine disconnect safety.  The lack of drop free mags makes reloads a bit tedious, especially when slung up.  The mag disconnect keeps the hammer from falling unless a mag is inserted, which impedes dry firing, and prevents the rifle from being dry fired in accordance with Appleseed safety rules.  Fortunately, these are both easy issues to fix.  The mag disconnect is particularly easy to disable.  These fixes greatly improve the Marlin 795, and make it much more suited to the Appleseed firing line.  I encourage all instructors who own a 795 to make these mods.  Below are instructions for doing so.  Also, I have included instructions for a tweak that tightens up the mag wobble on 795s, which may help keep malfunctions from occurring while shooting with pressure on the magazine. 

For drop free mags, you will need a Dremel with a small grinding stone and some needle nose pliers.  For the mag disconnect delete, the only tool you will need is the needle nose pliers. 

For either mod, start by disassembling the rifle.  Start by removing the two action screws on either end of the trigger group. 



Remove the trigger group, then pull the barreled action out of the stock. 



Detach the fire control group/mag well assembly by removing the plastic plug that goes through the rear of the assembly and holds it to the receiver.  Both of the mods will be performed on this unit. 



The FCG/mag well assembly.  The mag disconnect is the silver piece that runs down the side of the assembly. 


MAG DISCONNECT DELETE

This mod simply involves bending the tab on the rear of the mag disconnect straight up so that it no longer engages the trigger linkage.  It can be done with the mag disconnect attached, but is easier to do with it removed from the FCG/mag well assembly.  To remove it, you must remove the C clip that attaches it to the pin at the rear of the assembly.  To do this, place the tips of your needle nose pliers on either side of the C clip and press it off the pin.  Make sure to cover the clip with your hand while doing this so it doesn't pop off and get lost. 

Removing the C clip that secures the mag disconnect:


The mag disconnect has a pin that the sear spring rests on.  To remove the mag disconnect, you must use the end of your needle nose pliers to push the end of this spring off the pin like so:


Now the mag disconnect can be easily removed.  Use your needle nose pliers to bend the tab on the rear of the disconnect up straight.  It is possible that the tab may break off as you bend it.  Either way it accomplishes the goal.  Bend the tab here:



Unfortunately, the entire mag disconnect part cannot be removed, as the aforementioned sear spring must rest on the pin attached to it.  Re-install the mag disconnect (remembering to put the sear spring back on the pin), reassemble the rifle, and you will now be able to dry fire it like any normal rifle. 

DROP FREE MAGS

If your Marlin 795's mags do not drop free with the press of the mag release, there is too much interference in the mag well.  Most of this interference can be relieved by grinding the inside of the mag well with a grinding stone in a rotary tool like a Dremel.  However, some interference may also be occurring with the front end of that troublesome magazine disconnect, which protrudes into the mag well through a small "window" to interface with the top of the mag when inserted.  The issue with the mag disconnect is that sometimes, it sticks too far sideways into the mag well, and puts pressure on the side of the mag when inserted, along with riding the top of the mag up as it is supposed to.  This basically puts spring pressure on the mag, and can keep it from falling out of the mag well even if there is no resistance from the walls of the mag well itself.  To fix the issue with the mag disconnect, strip the rifle and remove the FCG/mag well assembly, and remove the mag disconnect from the assembly as previously described.  When making this mod to the mag disconnect, it is important to only bend it, and not to break this end of it off: for the mag disconnect to stay attached to the assembly, the front of it needs to rest in the little "window" in the side of the mag well.  You don't have to bend it very much, like you do with the other end of it when you are disabling the mag disconnect.  What you are wanting to do is to bend back the part of the disconnect that protrudes into the mag well so that it hugs tightly to the inside of the mag well.  Bend in the place shown:

http://s281.photobucket.com/user/henschman/media/Appleseed/IMG_0972_zps56d29aaa.jpg.html?sort=3&o=12

Rather than there being a 90 degree bend in the tab, as it tends to come from the factory, it needs to be bent back at a slightly sharper angle, as pictured below, so that it stays against the side of the mag well even when the mag disconnect piece is under spring pressure.



Once you have made the bend, re-install the mag disconnect, and observe to ensure that it hugs tightly to the inside wall of the mag well.  Now insert a mag, and see if it will drop free with the press of the release.  If it doesn't (which most still won't at this point), it means the mag well itself is too tight, and that it will have to be grinded/polished with a grinding stone to get the necessary clearance. 



I didn't have to remove very much material from the mag well on the two rifles I have done this procedure on so far.  On the rifle pictured, I just hit all the inside surfaces with the stone, on "fast" speed, until each surface showed a uniform finish from the stone.  Hit both raised sides of the rear of the mag well both from the top and the bottom (it is not necessary to grind inside the "trough"): 



Hit the curved front of the mag well:



Hit each side of the mag well:



Now insert a mag and see if it drops free with the press of the mag release.  If it does not consistently do this with all your mags, there is still too much interference.  To tell where this is occurring, insert and remove a mag rapidly.  Look inside the mag well and see where the freshly-ground surface is marred.  Hit this part of the mag well again with the grinder until a uniformly-ground surface is once again achieved.  Insert a mag, see if it drops free, and repeat the last step until it does.  If you are lucky, you will only have to grind once, as I did on the last rifle I performed this mod on; but grind as much as you need for the mags to drop free. 

ADDRESSING THE SLOPPY MAG WELL

When you are reassembling your rifle, there is another simple mod you can do to improve the 795 slightly.  You may notice that when the rifle is assembled and a mag is inserted, the mag and the entire mag well assembly can be wobbled around a great deal by tugging on the mag in various directions.  Some shooters report that putting pressure on the mag causes malfunctions in their 795s, due to this wobble changing the feed angle.  The wobble occurs because there is slop between the mag well assembly and the rifle's receiver.  Though this slop can't be eliminated entirely, it can be greatly reduced by performing the following tweak to the FCG/mag well assembly: using pliers, bend each end of the assembly in toward the other slightly.  You don't need to bend much -- as soon as you see both sides start to flex, it is enough.  Do this for the back of the assembly:



And the front:



When you install the FCG/mag well assembly back onto the receiver, each end should have a very tight fit.  This will keep the mag well from wobbling.   

Reassemble and function-check the rifle. 

Congratulations -- you have greatly improved the performance of your Marlin 795.  It is now a more effective Rifleman-making machine, ready to be turned loose on the Appleseed trail!   

Is it true that the firing pin/chamber will accumulate damage when dry firing the Marlin 795 without some type of dummy round in the chamber?  I don't think the firing pin has a retaining pin like the 10/22.  Anyone have an opinion on this?

I'm intrigued by these modifications.

Thanks!

Quote from: cdavidhord on December 31, 2013, 06:25:08 PM
Is it true that the firing pin/chamber will accumulate damage when dry firing the Marlin 795 without some type of dummy round in the chamber?  I don't think the firing pin has a retaining pin like the 10/22.  Anyone have an opinion on this?

I'm intrigued by these modifications.

Thanks!

Marlin does have an overtravel loop in the firing pin to stop the firing pin from peening the barrel. I do not remember but it is something like 1/32" or so clearance that should be there when properly installed.  The top 2 firing pins here are from Marlin Model 60/795s - the top is the older style, but both have the overtravel preventer.


I started this years ago and then forgot about it until now...

Thanks for this information about the firing pin.

Thanks for the detailed modification instructions.  I will try these mods on the first of my three 795s, and report back.

Quote from: cdavidhord on December 31, 2013, 06:25:08 PM
Is it true that the firing pin/chamber will accumulate damage when dry firing the Marlin 795 without some type of dummy round in the chamber?  I don't think the firing pin has a retaining pin like the 10/22.  Anyone have an opinion on this?

I'm intrigued by these modifications.

Thanks!

I've dry fired at least thousands (if not tens of thousands) of times and no damage to the barrel. The design prevents it, and my abuse verifies that at least on my rifle the design works.

I, too, made some mods to my Marlin 795. But to get the empty magazines to drop free, I went a different route. I enjoy using my Dremel tool just as much as the next guy, but I get nervous about removing too much material. Dremels aren't very good at putting material back!  Having said that, I did use a felt burnishing tip to kinda smooth out and buff up the inside of the magazine well, but I didn't remove material.

I purchased 3 extra factory mags from Marlin, for my 795. Of the four magazines, one of them would almost drop free, while the other three required the operator to apply a considerable tug to extract them. This made me wonder what was so different about the one from the other three. Since I got into Appleseed (and Appleseed Engineering ;-), I have invested in some digital calipers. What I found was that the width (think windage) of the 3 "sticky" magazines was about 0.010" greater than the one that would nearly drop free.

The magazines are a sheetmetal part that is folded into what is essentially a rectangular "box" shape and tack welded together in the rear (away from the muzzle) with a strip of metal covering the seam. As with any kind of folding, the resulting shape is a combination of the type of material (steel), thickness of the material, and the pressures applied in folding. I can't change the first two, so I got to work on that last one. I put some inner tube over the jaws of my bench vise to prevent marring the finish and then clamped down on the side of the box magazine. My focus was the rounded part of the "box" that faces the front (muzzle)--this is the end the bullets sit in. Your goal is to squeeze the magazine just enough to get the steel to reach the yield point (so it will hold that shape forever). You'll want to keep your calipers handy to check the width after each squeeze. You don't want to overdo it! Go slow until you figure out just how much pressure you need to apply and where to get a uniform width all the way down the magazine (...but especially that portion of the magazine that fits inside the magazine well). I just measured, and mine are about 0.455-0.462" wide, measuring at the rounded front portion of the magazines.

I made one other adjustment to the magazine detent punched into the strip welded onto the seam in the rear. The bottom edge of this detent is the part that holds the magazine in the gun. The upper edge of the detent just makes it harder to insert the magazine. Using my Dremel with a grinding wheel (or a mill bastard file will do), I put a nice bevel on the upper edge.

I suggest not dry firing, it will break the firing pin. Marlin replaced/sent me one free under warranty but told me not to dry fire anymore.  Shown below next to a mod 60 pin.



In regards to the mag disconnect. My personal 795 has been modified. The ones I loan out have not been. If someone were to accidentally fire the gun with the mag out you are negligent for disabling the mag safety and will be held responsible.

Quote from: mac66 on January 17, 2014, 05:45:27 PM
I suggest not dry firing, it will break the firing pin. Marlin replaced/sent me one free under warranty but told me not to dry fire anymore.  Shown below next to a mod 60 pin.



In regards to the mag disconnect. My personal 795 has been modified. The ones I loan out have not been. If someone were to accidentally fire the gun with the mag out you are negligent for disabling the mag safety and will be held responsible.

Personally, I'd rather replace a firing pin than miss out on dry fire. I've put at least thousands of cycles on mine without breaking anything. Also on the negligent thing, I hear that a lot, but enough other rifles do not have that feature that I'm not sure that would be a make or break factor in a suit. I've never heard of it being argued so JMO, but I think the mag disconnect disabling thing is overblown.

Quote from: mac66 on January 17, 2014, 05:45:27 PM
I suggest not dry firing, it will break the firing pin. Marlin replaced/sent me one free under warranty but told me not to dry fire anymore.  Shown below next to a mod 60 pin.



In regards to the mag disconnect. My personal 795 has been modified. The ones I loan out have not been. If someone were to accidentally fire the gun with the mag out you are negligent for disabling the mag safety and will be held responsible.

Actually the top pin there is the same style a model 60 has now - note that both have the loop to stop overtravel. As I said earlier in this thread, a properly set firing pin in a model 60/795 will not contact the breech of the barrel.

Next time I have some of my marlins apart I'll measure the tolerances of the firing pin lengths and see if I can re-find the measurement of the contact-gap they should have.

Quote from: InBox485 on January 17, 2014, 06:14:08 PM

Quote from: mac66 on January 17, 2014, 05:45:27 PM
I suggest not dry firing, it will break the firing pin. Marlin replaced/sent me one free under warranty but told me not to dry fire anymore.  Shown below next to a mod 60 pin.



In regards to the mag disconnect. My personal 795 has been modified. The ones I loan out have not been. If someone were to accidentally fire the gun with the mag out you are negligent for disabling the mag safety and will be held responsible.

Personally, I'd rather replace a firing pin than miss out on dry fire. I've put at least thousands of cycles on mine without breaking anything. Also on the negligent thing, I hear that a lot, but enough other rifles do not have that feature that I'm not sure that would be a make or break factor in a suit. I've never heard of it being argued so JMO, but I think the mag disconnect disabling thing is overblown.

In regard to liability, I'm no worry wort but I handled lots of liability cases (on the risk management side) of things in my career. It doesn't matter what other rifles have or don't have. if you disable a safety device (on anything) you will be held negligent and liable. Not to mention that you would probably feel bad if you or some one else left a round in the chamber and someone took the mag out and negligently shot someone. Stuff like that does happen occasionally.  Like I said, I disabled the mag safety on my 795. I try not to loan it out but if I do I specifically tell people that the mag disconnect has been disabled and that it will fire without the mag in it.

In regard to dry firing. My firing pin broke from dry firing.  Since I don't keep extra firing pins handy I no longer dry fire my 795s very much because if the pin breaks, the rifle is out of commission.  I discourage students from doing it with their 795s as well.

To each his own. Just a thought on the firing pin:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/955069/marlin-firing-pin-marlin-60-60c-60ssk-60ss-60sb-795-7000
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/bolt-parts/firing-pins/firing-pin-prod8343.aspx?avs|Make~~Model_1=Marlin__795

My 795 is nothing more than a training tool to me and I get a lot out of dry fire. JMO.

Thanks for this post, henschman!  Very helpful.  It makes the rifle a lot easier to use.  I also did the slingshot modification, which is quick and easy  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOvgR7xhAMs

Another thing I'm planning to do is extend the magazine release lever at least a little to make it easier to pull it down and out of the way to let those magazines fall without any interference. 

Quote from: InBox485 on January 21, 2014, 08:44:04 PM
To each his own. Just a thought on the firing pin:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/955069/marlin-firing-pin-marlin-60-60c-60ssk-60ss-60sb-795-7000
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/bolt-parts/firing-pins/firing-pin-prod8343.aspx?avs|Make~~Model_1=Marlin__795

My 795 is nothing more than a training tool to me and I get a lot out of dry fire. JMO.

It's really good to know that the 795 can be dry fired without dinging up the chamber.  I agree that it's pretty cheap to replace a firing pin.  I always keep a couple of extras around for my 10-22's, and it looks like I should order a couple for the 795, too.

I actually just watched another series of videos tonight where a guy did a similar auto bolt release mod for the 795, but he actually added another spring and didn't take the fire control group apart. He is also a bit more long winded (9 videos including and intro/overview) taking about an hour to show the whole process in real time, including how much tweaking he had to do to get it just right. I plan on doing this as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKFa4YAOyTs

Now I just need to extend the mag release a little.

That's an interesting series.  I liked mmatt's approach because I was already familiar with this exact concept via doing the slingshot modification for my Ruger 22/45.  Actually, I've only done the gravity version for the 22/45, and not added the spring tension, but I still understand the idea.  So mmatt's approach made sense to me right away. 

This longer video series has the advantage of not requiring any permanent modifications to the rifle at all, and I can see the appeal of that.  It does, however, seem like a much bigger challenge to get right!  (As I write this, I've got video 4 playing, where he's trying to get the tension adjusted properly.  Seems like a lot of work.)  But it's an elegant solution once you get it nailed down, that's for sure. 

Quote from: mac66 on January 21, 2014, 08:36:52 PM

In regard to liability, I'm no worry wort but I handled lots of liability cases (on the risk management side) of things in my career. It doesn't matter what other rifles have or don't have. if you disable a safety device (on anything) you will be held negligent and liable. Not to mention that you would probably feel bad if you or some one else left a round in the chamber and someone took the mag out and negligently shot someone. Stuff like that does happen occasionally.  Like I said, I disabled the mag safety on my 795. I try not to loan it out but if I do I specifically tell people that the mag disconnect has been disabled and that it will fire without the mag in it.

I've also been cautious about lightening loaner-rifle trigger pull by working on the sear surface with files/stones etc - it's easy to inadvertently change the engagement or angle.  Replacing the hammer on a 10/22 with commercial aftermarket units might not be as bad as filing the sear/hammer notch yourself (but . . .).  The factory triggers on my 795 loaners are on the heavy side (5#+) but are "honest" in that they are crisp, and a heavier trigger pull is good for students learning proper trigger-finger-tip placement. 

Thx for posting the drop free mod.. good job!  I'll be skipping the other mod for my 3 Marlin loaners. They see a TON of use (one has easily 20k rounds thru it), and I don't like burning thru firing pins. I keep extras replacement firing pins handy as  I've had two occasions where pins were broken due to dry firing... BeSwift

An easy fix to the dry fire/don't dry fire debate is to simply use the plastic drywall anchors as cheap snap caps. The little green ones are almost the same size as a .22 and even feed from the magazine in my Mossberg 44s and 144LSB. Haven't tried them in my Savage 64 though.

Quote from: Ninja Piper on January 30, 2014, 07:28:47 PM
An easy fix to the dry fire/don't dry fire debate is to simply use the plastic drywall anchors as cheap snap caps. The little green ones are almost the same size as a .22 and even feed from the magazine in my Mossberg 44s and 144LSB. Haven't tried them in my Savage 64 though.

Thanks. Never heard of that. I'll have to make a hardware run.

The fix suggested by Ninja Piper works great. I think they are the #4-#6 drywall anchors. Each is good for about 5 dry firings before you have to turn the anchor so that the firing pin strikes a "whole" area. The only con (drawback) I have found is that they do not eject by racking the bolt; at least in my Ruger 10-22s. You'll need to carefully insert a brass rod and push it out. Ball and dummy is out.
AJ

Please see the posting in Support your Local Vendor for the best .22 Snap Cap.

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=18263.0

In order to protect your firing pin and be able to perform a real ball and dummy drill, I have developed a fully functional .22 Snap Cap.   See the posting for the order form.

Quote from: airplanejoe on January 31, 2014, 09:50:33 AM
The fix suggested by Ninja Piper works great. I think they are the #4-#6 drywall anchors. Each is good for about 5 dry firings before you have to turn the anchor so that the firing pin strikes a "whole" area. The only con (drawback) I have found is that they do not eject by racking the bolt; at least in my Ruger 10-22s. You'll need to carefully insert a brass rod and push it out. Ball and dummy is out.
AJ

I have tried this with the yellow anchors and at first they looked promising, but then I had one disappear into the bore.  Not a huge deal but be aware it can happen.

UL

I have a bag of these dummy bullets in .22lr that I use for ball and dummy.  http://mfgservs.com/training_ammo.php  5 live and 5 dummy loaded into two mags in a mixed fashion.  Works well.

I admit, it's not the end all, be all of solutions to the dry fire problem but it was a solution I have found to be effective for me. Never tried it with a 10/22, so I couldn't speak for those, but I can imagine the rotary magazine would have some difficulty. Most of it has always been through my Mossberg 44s and other bolt guns. Never had one disappear into the bore before. Thanks for that heads up, I'll keep an eye on that.