Project Appleseed

In a nutshell, here's what's going on.  Ordered a new barrel from Green Mountain, SS, .092 full length.  Sent it to MOA Corp. in Sundance, Wy. to get one of their SS 1022 rcvr's threaded to the barrel.  They also chambered the barrel, cut the extractor slot and added a target crown to the muzzle end.  Absolutely beautiful job.  Upon return, I finished the build with a polished bolt, oversize charging handle op rod, and a trigger group from Timney.  I set the barrell and receiver into a laminated fiberglass stock I ordered from Stocky's Stocks.  I've now fired several different rounds of different velocities and weights only to find they ALL cause the bolt to op far to fast.  It hammers the bolt stop pin hard enough after only a few rounds to make it difficult to remove the pin, and about half the rounds will stovepipe.  Every other function of the rifle is perfect, when I do my part.  Anyone have any ideas as to how to slow down the bolt action?

First thing I would think of would be a heavier recoil spring and maybe adding a recoil buffer if you don't already have one.

My guess would be the polished bolt reduced friction, speeding up the recoiling bolt, and your recoil spring is a little weak.  You need a new recoil spring, as a minimum.  A recoil buffer with a steel insert would be a good idea, too.  (The non-steel polyurethane recoil buffer types probably won't hold up.).

G

If the problem is excess bolt speed you need a heaver recoil spring. VQ or KIDD will probably have one. Part of the problem is the Timiny trigger. The hammer spring is much lighter. In a factory 10/22 it absorbs a great deal of the recoil. You might want to borrow a trigger group and see if that changes anything.

A recoil buffer should only dampen the clank. It should do nothing to stop the bolt as the springs should already have done that.

I have 3, 1022 bolts, all of which operate about the same.  Spent 2.5 hours one afternoon at Catalpa Creek Range, changing out bolts and trigger group.  The polished bolt didn't seem to make any difference.  When I swapped out the trigger group with one from my standard 1022, I experienced many fewer stovepipes.  I wasn't aware of the lighter hammer spring in the Timney trigger group.  I believe that must have been the difference I noticed when using the OEM trigger group from my standard 1022.  I was unable to find a stouter recoil spring or charging handle with a stouter recoil spring, but did not know about VQ or KIDD.  Thanks for that info 2 clicks low.  (Did you know that dude in the orange hat in the photo with Jungle George is me?)  We met at Osage Beach in '11.  We exchanged a few 'Nam stories briefly.  Great guy.  The Timney trigger group oped just fine in my other 1022.  But the lighter spring explains why it worked better than in my custom build.  Ok, back cyberland to try and find a stouter spring on the charging handle.  Thanks guys.  I'll check back in again.  Rodge

I've been installing the Kidd guide rod and springs...they really are a great replacement for the factory guide rod, and for a very reasonable price. Just have to cut the end off your original guide rod and remove the charging handle. It comes with 3 springs as well, light, standard, and heavy.

http://www.coolguyguns.com/Ruger-10-22-Guide-Rod-Spring-Kit_p_30.html

Most OEM bolt stop pins require a punch and hammer to remove. The blow-back design allows a 250% range from minimum to maximum loads without issue. If the bolt is hammering the bolt stop pin it usually loosens up, not get tighter.

Your stove pipe issues are likely the extractor not being fit to the bolt properly. The extractor hook should cam out at least 0.015" when you slip a round up under it. It's a simple fix with a small flat file.

Doug makes a good point on the extractor. As I never figured out exactly where & how much  to file I just spent the $10 and bot the VQ exact edge extractor. Use the factory spring, not the VQ spring.

2cl

I agree that if it was "hammering" the bolt stop pin, it would loosen it, not make it harder to get out. ALL stovepipes I've ever seen was caused by too slow bolt speed, not too fast and how would one know? There are 2 ejectors in there, either will eject the round and the faster the case hits one of them, the faster it would exit the ejection port. The too fast theory doesn't make sense IMO.

Extractors.... For $10 if one was digging around in there anyway and it makes you feel better, change it. In the real world, seen a lot of stove piping issues (actually few when observed in totality) and ZERO required a new or modified extractor to fix. In fact with standard or HV ammo, they'll function fine without an extractor at all as long as the round fires. It's function is to extract unfired rounds. It might help slightly with draggy actions/under powered rounds.

First place I'd look is the oversized charge handle/op rod (?), second place would be the Timney hammer/bolt interface, and third would be the magazine/bolt interface since the Timney trigger assembly effects the mags position. I've known other that had problems after installing Timney triggers with no other changes. Last observation, and I love to tinker as much as anyone, I see more problems with reliability in rifles that have been "improved"......O.L.

Quote from: oladcock on September 20, 2013, 01:41:36 PM
...I see more problems with reliability in rifles that have been "improved"......O.L.

Truer words.... Keep mine box stock with tech sights and a sling, please. 

I believe the bolt is operating far too fast because the rear of the bolt is hitting the bolt stop pin hard enough to begin to bend it, that's why I had to drive it out.  It certainly wasn't coming out easily.  I put in a bolt stop buffer pin and after only a few rounds, probably 30-35, it began to deform.  You could see a 'shear' beginning to start on both ends of the pin after it was removed, right where the inside of the receiver housing is located.  I don't believe the Timney trigger group is the primary problem because I had the same problems with the new rifle build after putting in my trigger group (OEM) from a 1022 that has been to many AS's.  The receiver on the new build is SS and the holes are not loosening up at all.  Not sure I understand the .015 dimension for the extractor hook.  I've had three different bolts in the build, none changing any symptoms.  I really appreciate all you guys chiming in about this problem.  I'll keep looking at every suggestion and trying your ideas until something fixes this.  I realize how difficult it is to diagnose from someone else's description of symptoms.  I'm also wondering if there may be two or more problems, unrelated.  Trying to keep an open mind here and not overlook something.   Thanks again.

I'm not really trying to 'improve' on the 1022 design as it comes from the factory.  I expected to have issues when putting parts from multiple places together in one build.  I just decided to do it to learn, because I could.  I've built three AR lowers from kits and am currently working on an upper that will hopefully shoot fairly well out to around 600 meters.  Now I know I'm going to hear that an AR shooting 55 grain bullets is good out to nearly a 1000 yards.  BUT, I also know that the lighter 55 grain bullets begin to tumble beyond around 350 meters.  It was purposely designed to be that way.  That rifle was originally designed to be a combat rifle.  A lot of damage is done by a bullet that tumbles.  So, heavier barrel, 1:7.7 twist to shoot bullet weights of 68 grains and up.  I learn best when I build, especially with all the parts that goes into a completed AR.  So, I figured, build a 1022.  And brother, am I learning.  I realize that when it's all said and done, the new build may not put any more rounds in a 1" square than the other 2 Rugers my wife and I already shoot.  But hey, I'm having fun and learning all at the same time.  And you guys are helping more than you may realize. 

Could very well be 2 or more problems and those can drive you nuts. Here are some links on Timney triggers, I have them in CF rifles and love them, but, the consensus is they suck in 10-22's. Many causing stove pipes...O.L.

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=454568&highlight=Timney

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=468901&highlight=Timney

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=474027&highlight=Timney

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=473766&highlight=Timney

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=475611&highlight=Timney


http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=483394&highlight=Timney

Here's a shot of one of the stovepipes, and the bent bolt stop pin.

Here is what the build is turning out to look like.  Sorry, but photographer I'm not.

Quote from: RODGE on September 20, 2013, 04:09:15 PM
Here's a shot of one of the stovepipes, and the bent bolt stop pin.

Pardner I'm looking at the pic of the rimfire brass and the blown out base of the cartridge. It get's me wondering if your barrel is chambered for 22lr or is it chambered 22short ? Do all the cases look like that?

I don't know who made that pin, but a stock pin you'd play hell trying to bend it with a hammer. Hard to see the case, but sure doesn't look right. I don't know if anyone chambers for .22 short unless specifically asked for. It might have a tight "target" chamber, a sure source of problems in a semi-auto rifle......O.L.

I've fired about 150 rounds of .22LR thru this barrel.  I'm sure it is properly chambered.  I've chambered a round and extracted a round several times manually.  The chamber is okay.  The spent brass isn't blown out at the base.  It has what could be described as two rims and a mangled mouth case. 
That pin actually came from my older 1022.  It's a Ruger pin.  And it IS hard.  But that's what the bolt does to it.  That's after about 75 rounds of various types.  The barrel was chambered, target crowned and threaded by MOA Corp. of Sundance, Wy. to fit their SS 1022 receiver.  I've been very happy with the work they did for the build.

Looks like it goes back to the first couple of suggestions, recoil spring WAY too soft....O.L.

The cartridge case in the photo definitely shows that the cartridge was not completely chambered and the bolt not at battery when the round was touched off.

I'd have to see the receiver. The boring that is drilled for the bolt stop pin should give full support across the back of the receiver. To bend like it is shown in the photo either the receiver does not provide that support or has been bent.

What ammo are you shooting?

That's what I thought too. A "stock" 10-22 at about .006" out of battery you'll start getting light strikes, at .008-.010" total failures to fire. If that one will fire past that, that's a BIG safety issue. A geometry issue between the receiver/breach/bolt/hammer could allow that. Is the back of that bolt rounded more than stock?....O.L.

I've read up on Timney complaints in the forums you referred to O.L.  Sure has been a lot of complaints to Timney about their trigger groups when used in 1022's.  Douglas34474, so far I've shot CCI standard velocity, Agulia target ammo, (yellow/blue) box, and some old high velocity Coast-to-Coast, just to see if they shot any different.  I had about the same amount of stovepipes from each different type.  The back of the bolts, and I've had three different bolts in the new build all appear to the same as a O.E.M bolt from Ruger.  This weekend a local fellow, who was a former military armorer, looked at the build, including the stovepiped brass from the photo, the bent bolt stop pin , etc.  His deduction from all that was a far too weak charging handle return spring.  He also mentioned a condition he referred to as 'bish', if I understood him correctly.  Has something to do with similar and dissimilar metals working against each other.  I have't yet 'binged' that term, but intend too.  Also, this week I will be able to visit with the people at MOA Corp. about the problem.  They have a couple photo's on their website showing a 1022 build very similar to mine.  Thanks again guys for all the input.  I'm confidant we will come up with a solution or solutions.  I'm also considering ordering a different charging handle from KIDD.  They apparently come with three different return spring tensions made my Wolf.  Rodge

The charging handle spring does little to stop the bolt in it's rearward travel under recoil. The concave machining on the back of the bolt is designed to slow and then stop the bolt when it hits the bolt stop pin. This prevents the bolt from returning too fast from bouncing off the stop pin.

The mass of the bolt adsorbs the recoil from the cartridge. At maximum speed it's only traveling around 82 FSP. The receiver is softer than the bolt stop pin, even in SS, and would deform before the pin itself. If you increase the spring rate of the charging handle assembly it will drive the bolt forward at increased speed and you will hammer and deform the breech face of the barrel.

Your stove pipe issue is most likely your extractor. With the bolt in hand, slip a round up under the extractor. You should be able to hold the bolt with the round pointing down and "swirl" it around with some vigor and have the round stay in place. If the extractor does not hold the spent case tight to the bolt face it will loose control of the case. The case has to be held in the proper position on the bolt face to hit the ejector at the right spot to kick it out of the ejector port.

Put a new bolt stop pin in the rifle and see if it is gets damaged. It's nothing but a hardened dowel pin. I buy them 50 at a time. Check the drilling through the receiver to determine that the pin has full support.

Close up pics of the inside of the receiver could help with figuring this out.

Douglas34474, here are some shots of the SS MOA rcvr.  The bolt stop pin holes in the rcvr. still appear to not be damaged.  New pins, both buffer and steel, do not wobble or fall out.  When installing a trigger group into the rcvr., all three pin holes align properly.  Little effort is needed to insert the pins.  I put a LR round into each of the three bolts I have tried in the new build.  Can't even begin to even slightly wobble the bolt, like you suggested trying, while holding the round before the bolt falls off the rim of the round.  When I hold the rim of the round against the seat of the bolt face, there is space between the front of the rim and the hook part of the extractor.  Seems wrong. Same on all three bolts though.  Something I've not mentioned before is the breech face of the barrel protrudes into the rcvr. area about a thread and a half.  You can see that in one of the photo's.   Rodge

Quote from: RODGE on September 22, 2013, 09:15:59 PM
Douglas34474, here are some shots of the SS MOA rcvr.  The bolt stop pin holes in the rcvr. still appear to not be damaged.  New pins, both buffer and steel, do not wobble or fall out.  When installing a trigger group into the rcvr., all three pin holes align properly.  Little effort is needed to insert the pins.

The Ruger receiver is designed to provide support for the bolt stop pin. While I have seen some with support across the entire back, the new rifle I have in hand does not. It does provide about 1/4" inward of the side walls of the receiver. The MOA does not have this support. I believe you said in an earlier post that you were contacting MOA. If not, I would contact the and see what they say.

QuoteI put a LR round into each of the three bolts I have tried in the new build.  Can't even begin to even slightly wobble the bolt, like you suggested trying, while holding the round before the bolt falls off the rim of the round.

I may have not been clear. Hold the bolt and see if it will hold the round, not the round and see if it will hold the bolt. My bad.

QuoteWhen I hold the rim of the round against the seat of the bolt face, there is space between the front of the rim and the hook part of the extractor.  Seems wrong. Same on all three bolts though.

This is normal. There has to be the space because the round feeds up and under the extractor. If the gap is too small the round will catch on the extractor and will create feed issues. Some of the "sharp edge" extractors are known for this catching the sharp corner into the soft brass and causing an issue. When the round goes off, the gas pressure from the burning powder pushes the case back and the spent case will push the bolt back. It will be just as you describe. The extractor does not pull the spent case out of the chamber. A properly fit extractor will push the case hard against the opposite side of the rim cut in the bolt. This will hold the case in position for proper ejection. If it does not hold it tight, gravity will pull it off location and it gets hit in the wrong position to be "flipped" from behind the ejector and out the ejection port.

QuoteSomething I've not mentioned before is the breech face of the barrel protrudes into the rcvr. area about a thread and a half.  You can see that in one of the photo's.   Rodge

This is normal and yours looks like it protrudes about as much as the OEM setup.

Hope this helps. A little long winded but maybe someone else reading will learn from it. Let us know what MOA has to say about the pin bending.

I'm getting high speed internet this week. YEAH!!! Dial up makes it hard to post pictures. I'll put up a tutorial on how to tune the extractor if everything works out.

Talked to Rich today at MOA Corp.  They've done hundreds of their SS rcvrs to a multitude of different barrels and trigger group combinations.  Most builders used a stock bolt.  Some have had issues, but were usually resolved.  From what I was able to describe to him, as best I could by phone, he thinks I don't have a bolt problem, but rather a soft or defective bolt stop pin.  He thinks the stovepiping is extractor malfunction.  Suggested I reshape the hook on the extractor and get some pin material from Fastenau.  Will try these ideas ASAP and report back.

Fired 70 rds. from 4 different mags.  No stovepipes.  But had feed problems.  Could seldom let the bolt close and get a round to go into full battery.  Bolt 'looked' fully closed, but with safety off and a trigger squeeze, no fire in the hole.  When I 'helped' the bolt close and made it to full battery, there were still rounds that would not feed properly.  The attached photo shows the blunted end of the round when one would not feed.  Had about 12-15 out of 70 not feed properly.  I had reshaped the hook on the extractor piece in the bolt.  That seemed to fix the extractor-stovepipe problem.  The bolt stop pin (from another 1022) does not appear to have gotten damaged. It pushed right out of the receiver easily, when disassembling.  Will clean up four dirty mags and try it again.  Any other feed related symptoms I should be looking for?  Also am wondering if the chamber could be slightly undersized?  Seems that could effect extraction process, especially if undersized.

Here's another photo.

There are two types of match chambers for .22LR.  The one used for semi-autos is a so-called "Bentz" chamber.  The other match chamber is only for bolt-actions.  If you got a bolt-action match chamber by mistake, that could cause the problems that you are describing, as it is a much tighter fit and takes more force to chamber a round. 

Trying different types of .22LR cartridges might help, too.  You will likely need to find the right kind of  .22LR match ammo, both for best accuracy and best function, anyway.

And, if your headspace is under 0.0435", you can get out of battery firings, too. especially if your chamber is too tight/short, if the bolt is "shaved" too much on the bolt head, as this can cause a problem, especially if the bolt is not pinned to keep the firing pin from rising up.  Some things to check!

gb