Project Appleseed

When using M80 Ball bullets in the .30-06, seat them to the cannelure and crimp them.

Those 147 FMJBT's are the same as the M80 Ball. And, yes it works out pretty well.

M1A4ME, Military brass is (almost always) thicker than commercial, but the reason HXP is 'looser' on the spud/spindle is its rigidity, less 'spring'. Think of it as 'better memory'. Comm brass is annealed softer, so it is more malleable and tends to 'stay where it's put', while mil brass is hard so it will leave the chamber easier. Hope this makes sense. dave

Quote from: M1A4ME on May 04, 2008, 04:32:33 PM
Not having local access to a range I just jumped in and loaded several boxes of 30.06 ammo the other day.  HXP brass, the CCI military primer, IMR 4895 (48 grns) was well below the books max load (it was the minimum as a matter of fact) and some 147 grn. FMJBTs. 
...
Anybody else offer some experience if they've used 147 FMJBT's in a 30.06 - did you seat to the canellure or just to the same OAL at the M2 ball ammo?

Thanks.

Have sent ≈ 500 rds of 147 FMJ plus same powder harvested from CAVIM 7.62 cartridges (¡gracias, Hugo!) downrange using an M1 Garand, case mouths crimped into cannelure, with:
-no problems cycling, loading, extracting, feeding,
-no observable ill effect/wear upon rifle mechanism,
-no signs of excessive pressure in casing or primer.

so when useing the 147 fmj where you still able to use the rear sights the same as when useing m-2 ball ammo ,,as in for 400 yards set it at 400 yards , 500 set at 500 etc,,,


Wade

Wade, there is no way to tell. Yes it's a 150 grain bullet (+-) but BUT the distance from crimp to throat is different, the lead core is different, the jacket hardness is different. M2 is flat base, M80/M59 is boat tail, although this should make no difference inside 300 yards. As a wise man once said, "YMMV". Why don't you do a field experiment and report back? Get 100 rounds of one lot number, keep ten rounds for control, and replace the rest with M80, 155 JHP, 150 JSP etc. EHHHHHH?

Quote from: Wade on July 23, 2008, 02:06:18 AM
so when useing the 147 fmj where you still able to use the rear sights the same as when useing m-2 ball ammo ,,as in for 400 yards set it at 400 yards , 500 set at 500 etc,,,


Wade

Shot that on paper at known distances from 200 to 600 yd. The rear sight drum, if adjusted properly for M2 ball, will also be fine for M80 pull-down.  The elevation drum graduations will be right on, or very close.   If you're going to do a lot of this, record the sight settings in a data book.

You will see more variation from rifle to rifle, than you will from M2 to M80.

A post from last year by Raf mentioned useing the RCBS X die. I tried that in .223 and had problems the X die forced the neck back flexing the shoulder. My brass split at the bottem of the neck. Again I cut off excess brass. And thank you big daddy Dewalt.

Just ran across this while looking for something else.

Quote
What rifle are you loading for?  If you are loading for a bolt gun IMR 4064 won't hurt much of anything.  If you have an M1 Garand or have both bolt guns and an M1 Garand, then load ONLY to M2 specifications, M1s don't really like you playing with the powder much.  You can bend the op rod, or even blow the gas cylinder off the barrel with the wrong powder.

I have a question.  If you have a bolt gun and an M1 and load only to M2 specs, how will that affect your bolt-gun?  I assume it won't be quite as accurate as it could be otherwise, but wouldn't your (say, Tikka T3) still shoot tighter groups than your M1? 

Also, if you have some civilian brass (Federal, Remington, whatever)  vs. milsurp brass, would you still want to use the same primers that you're using for your M1?

What is safe pressure wise in the M1 should be safe pressure wise in your bolt action.  Max on the M1 was 50,000 psi.  It might be just fine accuracy wise in your bolt action rifle.  You won't know till you try.

I shot a hundred rounds or so of my reloads last weekend (Remington brass) through my M1.  It was loaded with "pulled" fmj bullets, IMR 4895 and CCI#34 primers (the ones recommended for use in M1 and M1A type semi autos).  No issues with the ammo at all.  Good groups, fed fine, shot fine, ejected fine.  It wasn't the shiniest stuff in the world so I had a littel trouble finding it in the grass in front of the firing line.

It even fed fine out of the Greek surplus clips I was using and it seems I've read somewhere in the past that the rim on the HXP brass was made different and other brass wouldn't work in the Greek clips, etc., etc.  Haven't tried LC, Win, or Fed brass so far, just the Remington and it worked fine.  Oh yeah, a lot of my civilian brass was 25-06, 270 Win. and 280 Rem. brass run through the 30-06 sizer and trimmed to length and all of it worked fine.

I'll be resizing that brass (hopefully in the next couple of weeks) and reloading it again.  However, I've got some new powder and that brass will probably end on 5 round stripper clips for my US Enfield.

Yeah, you'll still wanna use the cci#34s but good luck finding any.

Nickle,

I'm looking for a reduced load for 30-06 using 150gr jacketed bullets in the 2400fps range.  Want to make it more pleasant to practice using a light 8 lb. hunting rifle.

Can you suggest any powders that might help me achieve this?

Thanks in advance,

Supersniper

4895 should do the trick.

If it were only available around here.  Most all the popular powders have been sucked up. 

How about IMR4831 or AA3100?  Would they offer good loading density with the lower velocities?

I do have some IMR3031 and 2400 available. 

Thanks again!

Of those 4831 and 3031 would be my choices. AA3100 should work as well.

2400 is pistol/shotgun powder, too fast for what you're trying to do.

Surprisingly I have seen references to 2400 being used in the .30-06 from the 20's + 30's.  It is not in any of the reloading manuals today but can be found on internet searches.  All in all, I am still not a fan of experimenting when it comes to reloading.

Quote from: DuaneRN on March 26, 2009, 03:04:29 PM
Surprisingly I have seen references to 2400 being used in the .30-06 from the 20's + 30's.  It is not in any of the reloading manuals today but can be found on internet searches.  All in all, I am still not a fan of experimenting when it comes to reloading.

Commonly known, and usually for cast bullet loads only.

Not enough powder volume, in my opinion, too easy to make a bad mistake (like a double charge).

Nickle,

Great results with IMR-3031! 

Got (2) 3-shot groups of .4 inches at 100 meters and velocities of 2300 and 2400 fps with 150gr bullets.  Recoil is reduced 30% or so now.  Extreme spreads were in teh 40 - 50 fps range.  Very comfortable to shoot now.

I think the little lady will be very pleased with her purchase of the new
Browning X-Bolt in 30-06.

Thanks again!

Supersniper

After several weeks of searching, I finaly ran across some large rifle primers today. They were CCI benchrest, not what I was really looking for, but since they were the only thing I've found, I picked them up. I also managed to find some H4895. The salesman at the store told me the benchrest primers were the same hardness as the regulars, just stricter tolerance. I've heard behind the counter folks come up with enough wierd stuff though that I thought I'd ask some of those here their thoughts on benchrest primers. I'll be reloading for my Garand. 90% of my brass is HXP & I've also got a couple hundred rounds of commercial Federal brass around.

Rifle reloading is new to me. All my previous experience has been with 45 colt & making gobs of blackpowder blanks for CMSA (ballon popping) practice.

Thanks for the help
Guy

I have not used CCI benchrest primers.

I spent several years reloading for my M1A with Federal Benchrest primers and never knew that was supposed to be a "bad" thing.  No issues in 8 years.

Keep the primer seating correct (clean the pockets, seat the primers till the bottom "up" in the pocket) - no protrusion below the rim and best if slightly "up" into the case/pocket.

Keep your rifle clean - chamber, bolt face and firing pin and firing pin channel inside the bolt. 

Make sure your cases are properly resized so they fit easily into the chamber.

Remember the safety rules - muzzle in a safe direction, finger off the trigger till your sights on on the target (yeah, I know, not the four safety rules but surely you're going to work up a good load, take a few trips to a range and make sure they work - before you go to an Appleseed - right.)

CCI benchrest primers are the same hardness as their standard primers, but the amount of priming compound is disbursed using higher quality control standards thereby theoretically ensuring more consistent ignition.

WCM1,
Thanks, that confirms what the salesman told me.

OD,
Roger on the safety rules. I can shoot at the house, so when I get going I'll load 5-10 rds & check them out starting at the manual's starting load. I'm not looking to load benchrest stuff, just something that shoots to the same (or near) my surplus amm POI. I'm starting with Lee dies & will full length resize. If I have feeding problems I'll find some small base dies.

Thanks again,
Guy

Quote from: CaptG on April 14, 2009, 11:46:58 PM
If I have feeding problems I'll find some small base dies.

Get a case gauge and check them all before you attempt to chamber them in your rifle.

http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/25547/catid/3/Dillon_Rifle_Case_Gages

I know it's one more step, but it will give you peace of mind knowing that your loads are within spec.

Quote from: Old Dog on April 14, 2009, 07:16:25 PM
I have not used CCI benchrest primers.

I spent several years reloading for my M1A with Federal Benchrest primers and never knew that was supposed to be a "bad" thing.  No issues in 8 years.

Keep the primer seating correct (clean the pockets, seat the primers till the bottom "up" in the pocket) - no protrusion below the rim and best if slightly "up" into the case/pocket.

I have, a LONG time ago. We switched to Federal Match primers.

Match/Benchrest primers work OK. They are, as was said, just produced to tighter tolerances.

Federal primers have been said to have a trendency to "slam fire". Of course, if you do what Old Dog mentioned (and I quoted above), you almost certainly won't get slam fires, in MOST rifles. (Disclaimer that some rifles are more prone to slam firing than others, it's ALL in the design.)

His comments are THE way to load quality, safe, accurate ammo. Clean the primer pocket, and make sure the primers are properly seated.

Well, today I reloaded my first rifle rounds.

Prepped 40 rds of HXP brass, Lyman reamer to remove crimp (before I start on larger quantities I'll upgrade). Lyman flash hole uniform tool. Full length resize w/ Lee dies. Trimmed to 2.494 with Lyman case trimmer. Lee chamfer tool for necks. Tumbled for clean up and to remove lube. Primed with CCI benchrest primers.

Loaded 8 of the prepped cases with 46 gr H 4895 (the Lee Manual starting load) & 147 gr Win FMJ's. I didn't crimp, I have a Lee factory crimp die on back order.
It took a long time, but since I'm new at this, I'm triple checking everything as I go and keeping a log of each step.  All rounds were checked with caliper for LOA and with headspace guage for headspace. I'm also waiting on a case guage for further QC down the road. I'm not looking for benchrest accuracy, just trying to match surplus ammo POI as closely as I can.

I'll fire these 8 tommorrow & see if they're close to HXP POI. If results are ok I'll finish reloading the rest of these cases.

If anyone notes something that I've missed, let me know before I blow myself up. Otherwise, I'll report back tomorrow.

Guy

Sprinkle a little holy water on them and you're good to go.

Let us know how it goes.

(I'm suffering from reloading depression of not being able to find any primers )

RCBS makes a primer pocket swagger that I've had good luck with. A lot easier than the reamer.

I have read this thread and held off posting. But your post gives me a good opportunity.

I never full length resize if I am using the ammo in the rifle it was shot from. To do so stretches your brass more than necessary. I set my sizing die 1/8" above the shell holder. In doing this you do not set the shoulder back. Your cases are 'fire formed' to your chamber, why change them? When you set the shoulder back, the case will stretch to fill the chamber the next time you fire it. Do this enough times and the case will separate just in front of the cartridge web.

Case gauges are redundant. The dies you use are made to the correct size for the cartridge, why would you need to check the dies? USGI ammo had a tolerance of 0.006" of an inch between min and max. Your dies are held closer then that.

With a starting load of 46g IMR 4895, I doubt your POI will equal HXPs.

If you want to spend money, get a Chronograph and clock your rounds. Other than dies and a press it's the best money you will spend.

Service '06 was loaded to 2750 fps. Using IMR 4895 work up your rounds until they clock 2750 fps for a 150 g bullet and your good to go.

Fired the 8 rds. All functioned fine. POI is about 2" below the HXP at 25M. 6 rds grouped about 2", the others opened it up, but I'm sure it's me. Still getting used to this rifle and its trigger. 

Most feedback I've had seems to put favorite loads as 48 gr of 4895. I think I'll load up another 8 and go up 1 gr on the charge.

Thanks to all who have helped me with this.

Guy

Don't know how much reloading experience you have.....

The first thing I look at when I pick up my fired cases is the primer. 

Look at the primers before you fire the rounds.  Notice the radius around the edge of the primer where it meets the primer pocket?  One indication of pressure is how much that radius reduces (higher pressure = reduced radius).  Really high pressures will make that primer flatten right out on the edges.  Another indication of pressure that is too high is the primer trying to "blow" back into the firing pin hole in the bolt.  It's called a "cratered" primer.  The firing pin indention is there but the primer wall material is raised up around the indention.  Sometimes this can be aggravated by a firing pin hole that is worn larger over time, but if this is the cause the radius around the primer edge won't be flattened like it does from pressure.

Some folks suggest measuring the fired cases for expansion vs. a known standard pressure round but I've never done that - I just look at the primers.  The way I reload (accuracy over velocity) I've rarely seen flattened primers in my stuff, but I've seen it in some rifles even with factory loads when the rifle's not right (headspace issues).