Project Appleseed

Please stop it.

First, Kaylee asked an excellent question, and this has taken her thread far off course. Go start your own thread!

Second, no matter how you slice it, this hijack is NOT bailing. (Kaylee's topic was about learning how to become a better instructor, which IS bailing.)

Third, "it's not about the shooting" is absolutely true, but that's what we do, and that's what the "Skill Sets of Shooting" board is here for.

Fourth, the statement "I'm only ridiculing those who don't Appleseed anymore." is totally inappropriate here. If Appleseed is about preserving Liberty, then we don't get to ridicule those who make different choices about how to use their precious, sacred Liberty.

In general, that sort of attitude is arguably one of the greatest causes of attrition. We're all here to help one another, not to ridicule one another.

More specifically, the user that comment is apparently addressed towards was an extremely active instructor for many years, and continues to contribute to our mission in several other ways. The fault lies with the organization, with its leadership, with every member who ridicules other members, and with the fact that too many of us seem unwilling to stop such behavior.

Think about it. "Those who don't Appleseed anymore" means that you're also ridiculing some of the greatest instructors Appleseed ever had, the folks who built this program into what it is today.

Fifth, let's be clear. Appleseeding is NOT the "only" way to save our country, it's simply one of the better available options. Our mission isn't to make every American an Appleseed volunteer, it's to make every American a Rifleman. The benediction asks people to get involved in America, not just in Appleseed. We certainly need more volunteers, but Appleseed is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

Finally, PLEASE don't respond here! This thread already has a topic, and a good one. Please either stick to Kaylee's topic or go start your own thread. The moderators already have enough other things to do.

It seems that you are twisting slims words a bit. He didnt call anyone but himself selfish. My guess would be that is because that is how he felt. He called the mission selfless. Which I think we all agree it is.

The only question I have really seen posed is one of finding a balance between spending time shooting high power as a kd option or spending more time on the trail. We all have made a choice in that regard and surely one shouldnt be surprised to see so many advocate the trail when they find themselves on the forum for the trail.

What I find most surprising is that kaylee lives in alaska , cant find a place to shoot kd, and the 45 degree angle question means she would have to shoot from a few hundred feet above the SearsTower.

Edit: maybe I am wrong about what slim thought.

Quote from: SPQR on June 07, 2013, 01:18:39 AM
...and the 45 degree angle question means she would have to shoot from a few hundred feet above the SearsTower.

Probably not the worst place to be when the zombies come, but certainly not my first choice, either. 

Kaylee, seems like you have a good grasp on the core material which you will solidify and fine-tune in application. Keep it up!

To those who have served the Appleseed mission, those who continue to refine their skills and knowledge at various venues, and to those balancing their lives, passions, duties and obligations to posterity as responsible free citizens... I salute you.

QuoteWhat I find most surprising is that kaylee lives in alaska , cant find a place to shoot kd, and the 45 degree angle question means she would have to shoot from a few hundred feet above the SearsTower.

Kaylee now lives in the *ahem* Cradle of Liberty, smack between Menotomy and Lexington.

Great for the history, not so much for the getting out and shooting.
But thanks to Ninsho's KD class, about to get a chance to apply practice to theory! 

For Liberty!

When you are old enough the Cantab Lounge in Cambridge has awesome fish and chips and they play Bluegrass on Tuesdays.  I once heard a band of 60 something Bluegrass guys play young MC's Bust a Move.  It was pretty epic. 

Despite the seemingly unfriendly environment you find yourself, you have a great opportunity to be an ambassador for the gun culture and turn some people's minds around.  Looks like ol Mass has 7 shoots left this year.  Imagine the minds you could work upon if they all sold out with new shooters. 

(And sniff around and find out if there is any place in Mass where you can actually take a shot from an elevation 200 meters higher than the One World Trade Center at a down angle of 45 degrees and I will fly out there and help with the math. )

Quote from: Transform on June 06, 2013, 10:09:55 PMPlease stop it.

I like how you tell us to stop then go on a diatribe of what's wrong with my postings. Way to be the bigger person. And way to stick to topic!


I spent the afternoon doing some OTAS (Other Than Appleseed Shooting) and when I got home I put my gear in the garage and looked up at the media tower down the street from my house. I got to thinking about how high it was, how far away it was, and how much of an angle it would be to shoot the walks on various levels. Just standing there trying to figure out how much of an angle it was proved to be more difficult than I'd imagined.



I looked at the fence in front of me, the rooftops of the houses around, and thought about how far away the tower was. I didn't know how tall it was either so I had no real hard data to go with. All I knew was straight in front of me was 0 degrees and straight up was 90. Somewhere in the middle was 45. Was the first deck 45? Was the second? Top of the tower? And add to the confusion that Cincinnati is largely on hills. Harder to get perspective when standing on uneven ground. 

I had no freaking clue. But, I figured I could find some hard data and go from there.



I put a level on the door frame and much to my surprise (75 year old? garage) it was perfectly level. I put a piece of tape at 90 and one at 45. I kind of eyeballed the door "protractor" and it looked like the 45 was pointing about 3/4 of the way up the tower. Once I got down "behind the sights" it was really more like it was pointing at the top of the tower. I was surprised there was such a difference in just that little bit of change in perspective versus that little change in angle. What I would've guessed the top of the tower being more like 60 degrees turned out to be more like 45.

Hmmm.



Lastly, I tilted my level to the 45 degree bubble and when "looking down the sights" it was completely over the tower. Well, I'll be. They keep telling me there are very few things that are more than 45 degrees - and if they are they're probably very close to you - but I didn't believe them. It's counter-intuitive. If I was downtown, and shooting off a rooftop to the street below or ... oh yeah, it'd still be really close, regardless of the angle.

When you look "up" at something tall you have to look way, way, waaaaay up to see the top. It seems like the angle is very steep. But, imagine this.... directly in front of you is zero. Straight up in the air above you is 90. Now, hold your hand half-way between both of those. Still pretty freakin high, isn't it?

Seems it's just pretty hard to get more than a 45 degree angle on something and if it is more, you're going to be within your BSZ so it won't matter all that much anyway. So you're off by a few yards. Well, within your BSZ you're holding true anyway. Don't worry about it.

Doing a little prodding on the interwebz once I got back inside I found that tower is appx. 300 yards from my house and 953 feet tall. Boy that makes the math easy!

Distance from my garage to the tower (squared) + Height of the tower (squared) = Distance from my garage to top of tower (squared). 90,000 + 90,000 = 180,000. Square root of 180,000 = 424. If I had a laser range finder and hit the top of the tower it would be appx. 424 yards. Now, since I'm shooting at a 45 degree angle I'd have to multiply that distance by the cosine of the angle (cos 45 = .70) and... wait for it.... we end up with 297, or the approximate lateral distance to the base of the target.

In other words, I could've forgotten all about the distance to the top and just pretended I was taking a 300 yard shot since the target is only 300 yards away.

Angle shooting... it just don't matter for a Rifleman.

Early on in my Appleseed days I was able to ask a Distinguished shooter how to shoot angles. He told me, "Don't worry about how far up or down the hill it is. Just figure out the lateral distance it is away from you and shoot for that distance." Like everything else he told me.... he was right.

And since I'm bored, let's say I was shooting

The platform 1/2 way up the tower. (477 ft. high) I'd end up with a shot of about 315 yards.

For the platform 1/4 of the way up (238 ft) I'd end up making a shot of 310 yards.

Exact math of 953 feet to the top and 45 degree (cosine of .7) angle gets me a shot of 306 yards. 


So, regardless of how high up the tower I'm shooting, I'm still shooting the lateral distance to the base of the target.

KD Question - What would my shot be at the platform 3/4 of the way up?

Your post is nearly verbatim the section on angle shooting Dave put together. Just be the cat. Wait...were you at that shoot?

I was at that shoot... and I'll be at the next one. Huzzah!

45 degrees is easy! Cut a stick the length of from the ground to your eyes while standing. Lay on level ground. Have someone hold the stick upright for you at your feet to sight with. Move closer / farther till top of stick coincides with top of tower / tree / whatever. You now have a 45 deg angle -plus- you know where the top will land when it falls. (Dad knew some about logging as a youngster living in Oregon...)

Use a little sense and logic here folks; don't go up/down hill too much for this little exercise...

jmdavis runs a fine KD event.  He knows what he is about, and he has my gratitude for his help & instruction.