Project Appleseed

CCI Mini-Mag and SubSonic both give excellent reliability in both my 795 and 10/22. The SubSonic is the only one I will use when scores are being tallied though it just gives a much better group with far fewer fliers. Practice though remains CCI MM its just good ammo.

and now, Rich shows up to throw a monkey-wrench-type question into the whole discussion.....


standard-velocity .22LR, as mentioned in that other post on "page 1" vary between just-barely-supersonic up to about 1300-ish, using bullets between 40gr (slower) and down as light as 36gr (faster).....standard twistrate for .22LR seems to be 1:16


the subsonics use about a 60gr bullet in a shorter casing

Here's the question.....For those of us that are shooting Cienerized AR's with (old) twistrates of 1:12, or (newer) rates of 1:9, assuming proper torquespec on the nut behind the buttstock, might the heavier, slower 60gr bullet behave better with the faster twist?......or would we expect the low velocity to not work right, in a barrel that was intended for a projo of approximately the same weight (55-62gr) @ 3000-3200fps?



Or should I get some subsonics and go to the range to tell you what I found out?   

Try some and see how hour rifle does.

My CAR15 only has a 10.5" barrel with a 1 in 9" twist and it shoots both Rem. Golden Bullets and Federal bulk pack just fine at 25 meters.

Your rifle might shoot different ammo better.

However, for me, the idea of the .22 conversion it was to shoot something cheaper than .223 ammo, the cheaper the better if it gets the job done.  Spending big bucks for target quality or specialty ammo just isn't "in my picture".  But I might try it if I couldn't find anything else that shot accurately.

haven't found any yet

If they have debunked the sonic transition its the first Ive heard of it. Physics is physics an object moving though a sound barrier is buffeted lighter objects are affected more than heavier so a 40 gr bullet is going to suffer more so than a 120gr. Subsonic is more consistent if nothing else so far fewer fliers. When you want the highest score possible you do what you can be that working on form or the rifle or the ammo.

My situation requires I do all I can since for me there is no prone or kneeling, its aggravating knowing I once could score rifleman any time I wished and now struggle just to do respectably. If something works for a shooter fine let em do so since when you are behind the rifle nothing else matters but you and the target. Confidence is as much a factor as anything so build it any way that you can.

I'm not convinced on the benefit of subsonic ammo for 25M, especially with a 4 MOA target.

At 25M the bullet is still supersonic when it reaches the target, so it never trasitions the sound barrier down range; it only had to go supersonic in the barrel.

I get an occasional flyer, but the vast majority of misses are me, not the ammo.

Sure my 22LR bulk doesn't group as tight as centerfire, but it is more than good enough for 4MOA targets.

Quote from: Old Dog on December 18, 2007, 03:38:12 PM


Don't know what shorts cost these days or how hard they are to come by.  And until someone can explain why that old guy's Savage M29 doesn't have a burnt out spot in the chamber from shooting shorts in it I'll not believe the old wives tale about shorts ruining a LR chamber.  In fact the rifle states (on the barrel) that it is good for shorts, longs and long rifles.

I agree with this. I have an old Winchester model '06 pump action 22 that will shoot 22 short, 22 long and 22LR. It's as accurate with any of these. With the 10's of thousands of rounds that have been shot through this gun over the years it is hard to believe how accurate it still is. The only issue I have found in shooting a lot of the short ammo and then going to longer is there is sometimes a build up of spent powder in the chamber that can cause the longer brass to stick. Regular cleaning takes care of this issue.

A long time ago, my Daddy told me to not shoot shorts regularly as they would scrape a little lead off entering the barrel and they would eventually make it hard to chamber a .22 lr. So I didn't.

It seems logical that could happen, and it'd also be possible to clean it out with a little piece of metal harder than lead if you knew you needed to do it.

CCI Blazer, Fed #510 and 510b as well as Federal Automatch is all about the same ammo. Shoots < 1moa in all rifles I have tried it in.

I used to care a lot more about this exact topic. I spent a lot of time and money searching out and buying (sometimes exotic) .22LR ammo in my quest for accuracy. But Benchrest shooting and Appleseed qualifying are two different disciplines. For Appleseed qualifications (and just plain fun shooting) find out whatever works in your rifle and buy that... and it doesn't have to be expensive. By "works," I mean you can count on it to reliably go boom (and cycle the action if you have an autoloader) every time you pull the trigger. At the 25m distance we're talking about, with a 4moa target, you can get it done without breaking the bank, or even going into the subsonics (which are getting harder to find lately with all the rage being on high velocity, super-high velocity, ultra-high velocity, maximum velocity, blah, blah, blah). Just buy ten different brands of inexpensive .22LR ammo, head to the range, try 'em out, watch for reliability and grouping patterns, and you'll probably come up with three or so that you'll feel confident with taking with you to an Appleseed. And what your rifle #1 will like as its favorite load will not be the favorite load of your rifle #2, which will be different still from your buddy's rifle. They can be picky, but once you find their favorite fodder, buy up and have fun.

I had been wondering this myself.  I shot my Appleseeds with a CZ452 (bolt action) in .22WMR using CCI TMJ 40 Gr.  There were no issues of reliablity or accuracy.  Then I changed to a S&W M&P-15 with a converter.  Federal 38 Gr Hollow Points (local cheap stuff) had so many fliers that I gave up trying.  I had shots appear 2 inches off target!  I do not yet know if anything shoots well from it.  I had hoped to benefit from an autoloader that I already owned but the 1 in 9" twist does not like those.  I will bench my new rifle aquisitions and make sure they like the ammo.  I suspect they will out shoot me, but it is better to find out before I start losing points.  I may look into subsonics but I expect the High Velocity load will work out.   

I'd really love to meet the person that shoots better than his rifle/ammo in prone unsupported at 82 ft.  Buy the cheapest stuff that doesn't jam.

My $0.02 worth, but as as 30+ year re-loader and pistol & rile shooter, the paper doesn't care if the bullet is traveling 650 ft/sec or 3,200 ft/sec- it's whatever gets the bullet to travel consistently to its destination.  Very few times did I go above the starting levels when reloading, they did their part of the job.

Re: subsonic, if you can afford it, and it does the job, it's the best choice.  There's less recoil, muzzle climb, and muzzle flash- it helps you do your part.

Tom

Quote from: dart67eb on October 14, 2010, 11:34:37 AM
I'd really love to meet the person that shoots better than his rifle/ammo in prone unsupported at 82 ft.  Buy the cheapest stuff that doesn't jam.

I shoot Aguila Subsonics, I have never had a misfire with them. I can't say the same about bulk pack, or even regular Remington, Federal, Winchester, CCI, etc.

I can tell the difference in ammo at 82 ft, CCI and Wolf is OK but not as good as the Aguila.

When shooting competition I would shoot Eley Tenex, not because it was the most accurate in my gun, but because it went bang every time and that was more important.

Quote from: clodhopper on August 25, 2007, 01:43:46 AM
Most rifles shoot better than the guy carrying them.

you used the word guy not me 

I think that would depend on who was on the trigger at a AS with a 99$ gun and standard velocity bulk ammo i shot better then 500$ CZ's and 15$ box of 50 rounds of subsonic ammo. But that was at a AS how would my 99$ setup hold up to the same CZ's at a 100yd mini palma or silhouette. I think that a good gun like a CZ 452 American and something around 1050 fps may be best. So i guess the question is what are you going to shoot?

A 99 dollar rifle in the hands of a person with some training and cool confidence (quite often a woman) will beat a 2500 dollar rifle in the hands of a hot head who thinks he is to smart to learn anything (quite often a man like me).
More expensive rifles have nicer triggers and better finish.
The sights are very important, a 500 dollar CZ has adequate iron sights, If you have good vision.
For real fine shooting you need to be able to see the target.
If you want to shoot good spend 500 dollars on a scope (crutch) and a trigger job.
The badge of rifleman is more about being able to operate the rifle compently through transitions, mag changes, distractions under pressure like hot brass thrown on you and a short barreled .308 next to you and limted time.
Not so much about being able to hit a gnat in the zit on his a**.
For appleseed 25 yard shooting, inexpensive bulk pack ammo that has the ability to function your rifle is good enough.
And that is what I use

For what its worth
I have watched Riflemen after a few shoots take used non reloadable brass case's (7.62x54 ,,7.62x39,8mm etc,,) set it at the 25 meter line and race each other to hit all there targets and then the other guys,,,What did they use for ammo and Rifles ? cheap old LTR's and Cheap bulk pack ammo.

Watched  one of those same Riflemen print a 1.7 moa group @ 1000 yards with an  G.I m-1 garand and cheap m-2 ball ammo just a mc style shooters jacket and a web sling and an old work glove.

Wade

Although most are saying that the subsonic rounds are better in accuracy I disagree. I used CCI Stinger rounds in my bolt action Savage Mark II. I tested CCI Hyper velocity, Federal High, and Remington subs. The CCI did best. The bullet travels much faster giving it less air time for the wind to change its direction even a fraction of an inch. Also when the bullet is moving down the barrel at an accelerated rate the rifling in the barrel spins it at a faster rate. History tells us that the rifling and the increse in velocity gave better accuracy. Just some food for thought.

Doug

Quote from: Bolt Gunner on May 29, 2011, 10:16:54 AM
Although most are saying that the subsonic rounds are better in accuracy I disagree. I used CCI Stinger rounds in my bolt action Savage Mark II. I tested CCI Hyper velocity, Federal High, and Remington subs. The CCI did best. The bullet travels much faster giving it less air time for the wind to change its direction even a fraction of an inch. Also when the bullet is moving down the barrel at an accelerated rate the rifling in the barrel spins it at a faster rate. History tells us that the rifling and the increse in velocity gave better accuracy. Just some food for thought.

Doug

The problem  is that you didn't test any real Match ammo in that Savage. There is a reason why some shooters pay $10, $12, $14 or more per 50 rnd box of ammo that is subsonic. That reason is the extreme consistency of that ammunition.

For Appleseed Stingers or Blazer or often even bulk pack ammo works fine. But you need to test it in your rifle and make that decision yourself. My oldest 10/22 loves Eley Club and the old Remington CMP white box match ammo. It is a bad day if all shots aren't touching in the center of a square or the 400 yard target. My silhouette rifle likes the Eley as well. On the other hand I have a bolt rifle that likes faster ammo, and a conversion that seems partial to heavier bullets such as the Aquila 60gr.

Testing ammunition and knowing what your rifle prefers is just part of the process of "learning your rifle." Plus, it get's you out shooting and that's always good. Just remember, what works well for someone else may not work well for you.

Now about the rifling, the rate of twist is the rate of twist. If the velocity of your bullet exceeds the rate of twist, it will stop engaging the rifling. In general this is bad. Most .22's are rifles with 1 in 16 twist. This will stabilize the 40 gr bullet well across a  range of velocities.  A faster bullet will have less drop due to velocity. But it would be good to remember that most .22lr match ammo is subsonic and it is subsonic for a reason. The reason is accuracy in match guns.

Test your rifle and your ammo. Know what they are capable of, practice and shoot to your potential.

Mike

I have 3 varieties of subsonic .22s (Fiocchi, Remington and PMC Moderator) as I have a suppressed Ruger MKIII pistol and you are defeating the purpose of the suppressor if you ammo makes a supersonic "crack."  That being said, I have experimented with the subsonics at 25m when shooting practice AQTs.  I haven't shot a lot, as I reserve the more expensive subsonics for the suppressed pistol. I've found them to shoot pretty good groups, but the POI is about an inch lower due to the lower velocity and it makes it hard to "hold over" for stage 4 if you aren't willing to tweak the sights.

22lr ammo at our default range:  Subsonic vs Standard (if it is standard velocity CCI then it runs at 1070 fps which brings to subsonic).

22lr ammo at Sonic speed experiences a little bit of a tumble at 50 yards. Within 25 yards the only thing subsonic will get you is reduced recoil so your follow up shot, sight picture, is easier to keep aligned.
If you go to far down the FPS scale, say below 1000 fps then you may run the risk of a mechanical failure on a semiautomatic ie.. a fail to eject and empty shell.

22 subs can reach a ways and be well under 4 MOA.

Here is a KD session with a rifleman student running a M16 with suppressed 300 Blackout going up against the Shoot Boss using a suppressed cricket and running remington subtonics (some of the least consistent subs out there).

The cricket kept up and into the 3 MOA targets at 220 yards and made some 2MOA hits when the shooter was able to stop laughing.

Suppressed 300 Blackout M16 vs Suppressed 22 Cricket at 200 Yards

Looks like the same or similar article on the topic from "Fields and Stream" about the Pro and Con of Subsonic Ammo.

"  smallbore competitors know, subsonic .22 LRs are more accurate than supersonic .22s because they exhibit 37 percent less wind deflection due to the disproportional increase of air resistance near the sound barrier. "

https://www.fieldandstream.com/the-pros-and-cons-of-subsonic-cartridges/

Most of the Arkansas Appleseeders, who have some level of instructor hat, shoot CCI ammo at the Appleseed events in our state. Some shoot 40 gr MiniMags (1200 fps). Some shoot Standard Velocity (1070 fps). In the instructor corps, there is also occasional Aguila SuperExtra. We, that shoot CCI Standard Velocity, insist that the groups are smaller. The higher power stuff is more reliable in a stock Ruger 10/22. Suffering a stovepipe during a transition stage of the AQT will ruin your day. 

The chamfered bolt modification will eliminate the reliability issues with CCI Standard Velocity, or at least get it to where the problem is no more common than when shooting MiniMags with a stock bolt.

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251031

If you don't want to go through the trouble, a JWH bolt has the same adjustment.

I don't know if it was here or over on rimefirecentral.com. If it was here, I can't find it right now.

Anyway, somebody did an experiment that included lots of different rifles and lots of different ammo. They found that CCI standard velocity worked best in Ruger barrels, and Wolf worked best in Valquartsen barrels. My daughter's rifle has a Valquartsen barrel with a recessed crown. So I bought some Wolf Match Target. They definitely grouped better than CCI SV in her rifle.

I can shoot 3/8" groups with my rifle and at 25 yards using CCI SV. There is no reason to pay more and feed my rifle with Wolf ammo.

I fired 50 rounds of CCI standard velocity yesterday morning.
Air temp in the 20's, with a nice breeze.
Kept the ammo and mag in a pocket to keep it warm.
The firing was standing, slow fire. Lowering the rifle off my shoulder each shot in preparation for a schutzen style match.
The ten shot strings of fire were separated by 10 minutes or so of mag warming in my pocket.
The SV ammo was noticeably weaker sounding with slow bolt velocity. Compared to mini mags.
The rifle did function until about the eighth round on each mag.
My theory is when the temperature of the ammo got to a certain point, the ammo just did not have enough energy work the action.
CCI standard velocity ammo is also generously coated with soft wax bullet lube, not good in the local shooting environment populated by wind and dust. Made worse with all the instructors, and shooters tromping around,  checking safe, prepping mags, instruction, and going down range.

I shot my 233 score with Gemtech subs.  I did not use a suppressor.  Shot straight out of a Ruger 10/22.  I love Gemtech.  Clean and accurate.