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Shelf life

Started by Nukehayes, November 18, 2012, 04:22:01 PM

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Nukehayes

November 18, 2012, 04:22:01 PM
Do primers and powder have a shelf life?  I recently stumbled upon a gold mine of left behind reloading components in my new house.  It seems the late gentlemen that lived here liked .223 and 9mm.  I have unopened cans of Hecules Bullseye and Win 748 and 4k winchester small rifle primers and a box of winchester small pistol primers (old yellow, orange and white boxes).  Also, do you think modern reloading manual info is good for these?  Do companies change their recipe every so often or do they just make new lines of powder?  Thanks.

kenjo

#1
November 18, 2012, 06:12:33 PM
Quote from: Nukehayes on November 18, 2012, 04:22:01 PM
Do primers and powder have a shelf life?  I recently stumbled upon a gold mine of left behind reloading components in my new house.  It seems the late gentlemen that lived here liked .223 and 9mm.  I have unopened cans of Hecules Bullseye and Win 748 and 4k winchester small rifle primers and a box of winchester small pistol primers (old yellow, orange and white boxes).  Also, do you think modern reloading manual info is good for these?  Do companies change their recipe every so often or do they just make new lines of powder?  Thanks.

You can contact the manufacturers to find out for sure, but I doubt if there is a problem with loading these components as long as they have been sealed up and dry. I'd offer to take them off your hands but shipping powder and primer has high costs due to hazmat.
"At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide."  Abraham Lincoln

Mark Davis

#2
November 18, 2012, 11:41:49 PM
They are most likley okay.
Any manafacture you contact would be obligated to tell you to dispose of it properly, and buy more.
If the primers go bang they are OK.
If the powder is not "rusty" dusty, clumpy it should be Okay.
If the powder cans were opened, check to see if it appears to be the same color and grain texture as a known (as in purchased by you) powder of the same manafacture with the same number or name.
It is possible the ole guy poured some other type of powder in those cans.

Nukehayes

#3
November 19, 2012, 01:06:28 PM
The tins are all still factory sealed.  I was just wondering if powder breaks down chemically over time, but given your answers, I think they will be fine.

Transform

#4
November 19, 2012, 05:00:51 PM
Just FYI Nukehayes:
Absolutely everything "breaks down chemically over time," given enough time. Oxygen is a chemical accelerant, which is why the cans are sealed airtight, since the seal dramatically slows (rather than stops) the reaction. Eventually, even with an intact seal, oxygen molecules pass right through the metal can, but that takes a really, really long time.
Many "shelf-stable" survival items are packed in nitrogen, instead of vacuum sealed. One reason is to purge all of the oxygen, the other reason is to delay oxygen from entering right through the can by applying internal pressure.
Your cans should probably be fine, but as with ANY chemical experiment, best to start out cautiously.

yellowhousejake

#5
November 19, 2012, 06:11:19 PM
You say the powder is in "tins"?

- Likely they are different as you suspect, so any perfect load you develop may be hard to duplicate with new components.
- Yes, you should find the manual for the time period your powder was produced. They change formulas.
- Seals will appear to be unopened given enough time in extremes of heat and humidity. Appearing unopened does not equate to unopened.
- You have no idea what conditions the supplies were stored under previously, only the conditions you found them stored under.

The emergency room visit and replacement rifle will far exceed the cost of a new can of powder. Sell the stuff to a collector.

Just my two cents. Not right, not wrong, but I will not be sending a get well card.  ;)

YHJ
I have removed my email from my profile to stop the mod reports. If you need a Libertyseed scheduled you will now have to contact me on the Libertyseed forum.

YHJ

wcmartin1

#6
November 19, 2012, 10:38:20 PM
Congratulations on your find, sir!

Use it, be grateful, and don't be scared.  I've used 40 year-old plus powder, primers, and loaded ammo myself many times successfully.

With the powder, as always, you should start low and work your way up looking for pressure signs while trying to find the sweet spot (accuracy-wise) in the charge.  If it's a powder you have used in the past, you may find that you have to tweak your load a little due to a slightly different burn rate.

Don't be afraid of the primers at all.

Enjoy!
"Unhappy it is, though, to reflect that a brother's sword has been sheathed in a brother's breast and that the once-happy and peaceful plains of America are either to be drenched with blood or inhabited by a race of slaves.  Sad alternative!  But can a virtuous man hesitate in his choice?" - George Washington - from a letter to a close friend after the events of April 19, 1775

"There is no nation on earth powerful enough to accomplish our (the United States) overthrow.  Our destruction, should it come at all, will be from another quarter.  From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from their carelessness and negligence, I must confess that I do apprehend some danger.  I fear that they may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants, and fail properly to scrutinize their conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of designing men, and become the instruments of their own undoing." - Daniel Webster, June 1, 1837

Thor's Hammer

#7
November 21, 2012, 12:18:59 PM
If you are needing any old reference materials, I have books dating from the 60's. I have many 1st edition from manufacturers as well as obsolete manufacturers. If you are needing anything, I can scan it and email it to you.

I used some old Winchester 450LS for a couple of decades that dated back to the mid 50's and never had a problem. Still have some reloads from the late 80"s that I haven't even used yet.

Jason
The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.    George Carlin

rdhood

#8
January 11, 2013, 08:11:21 PM
Quote from: Nukehayes on November 19, 2012, 01:06:28 PM
The tins are all still factory sealed.  I was just wondering if powder breaks down chemically over time, but given your answers, I think they will be fine.

I think most of the books/people will say that when powder goes bad, it has a funky smell/look.  Chances are, if it looks/smells normal then its good to go.

BD

#9
January 11, 2013, 10:07:02 PM
Man, I haven't had an attack of jealousy for a while.
Free powder and primers?  Must be nice!
I'd start at the low end of the power curve to be safe, but that stuff is probably fine if it looks OK.
Up the Republic

Kosciusko

#10
January 11, 2013, 11:48:35 PM
google is your friend

search term: 

"what does smokeless powder smell like when it goes bad"

answer:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2701444/page/3

AFTERMATH

#11
January 12, 2013, 07:14:36 PM
Say, on a similar note - So I got this reloading kit passed on to me.  Got excited and ended up priming 50rds of .45, about a year or so ago.  Set 'em in a tray and well, they're still there.

Being that they've been open and exposed, what is the likely hood that they've gone bad? 
"We intend to produce men who are able to light a fire for Liberty in men's minds, and make them the finest rifle marksmanship Instructors on the planet." - Son of Martha

"Tyrants rise and fall, but tyranny lasts forever." -Me

[What kind of megalomaniac quotes himself?]

BD

#12
January 12, 2013, 09:17:32 PM
Simple test - put one in a Thompson SMG (or a pistol, i guess) and see if it goes "bang"
Up the Republic

Mark Davis

#13
January 13, 2013, 10:27:35 AM
Quote from: AFTERMATH on January 12, 2013, 07:14:36 PM
Say, on a similar note - So I got this reloading kit passed on to me.  Got excited and ended up priming 50rds of .45, about a year or so ago.  Set 'em in a tray and well, they're still there.

Being that they've been open and exposed, what is the likely hood that they've gone bad?
When you load them, make sure they do not go into storage as good ammo, go shoot then right away.
My past experience it that primed cases sitting on the bench for long periods of time make good ball and dummy training ammo,
except too many of them work to be excellent ball and dummy training ammo. No coach needed.

AFTERMATH

#14
January 13, 2013, 09:01:31 PM
Quote from: BD on January 12, 2013, 09:17:32 PM
Simple test - put one in a Thompson SMG (or a pistol, i guess) and see if it goes "bang"

Can I borrow yours? ^-^

Quote from: Mark Davis on January 13, 2013, 10:27:35 AM
Quote from: AFTERMATH on January 12, 2013, 07:14:36 PM
Say, on a similar note - So I got this reloading kit passed on to me.  Got excited and ended up priming 50rds of .45, about a year or so ago.  Set 'em in a tray and well, they're still there.

Being that they've been open and exposed, what is the likely hood that they've gone bad?
When you load them, make sure they do not go into storage as good ammo, go shoot then right away.
My past experience it that primed cases sitting on the bench for long periods of time make good ball and dummy training ammo,
except too many of them work to be excellent ball and dummy training ammo. No coach needed.

B&D would be beneficial - My XD doesn't offer the malfunction drill practice that my Llama used to...  I guess my biggest concern would have been hangfires or possibly increased chamber pressure.  If there's no worries in that area I guess it'll be  :~ :~ :~ :~ :~ :~
"We intend to produce men who are able to light a fire for Liberty in men's minds, and make them the finest rifle marksmanship Instructors on the planet." - Son of Martha

"Tyrants rise and fall, but tyranny lasts forever." -Me

[What kind of megalomaniac quotes himself?]

Mark Davis

#15
January 14, 2013, 12:47:16 AM
Hang fire is a genuine concern, thanks for bringing it up. I do not know the enviroment of your bench. I live in a very dry climate, my bench is in a tight room dedicated to reloading and gun stuff. very occonassionly a bit of oil or gun cleaning solvent will get airborne in there.

AFTERMATH

#16
January 14, 2013, 08:32:21 PM
Quote from: Mark Davis on January 14, 2013, 12:47:16 AM
Hang fire is a genuine concern, thanks for bringing it up. I do not know the enviroment of your bench. I live in a very dry climate, my bench is in a tight room dedicated to reloading and gun stuff. very occonassionly a bit of oil or gun cleaning solvent will get airborne in there.

Some might describe the environment as hostile.  Temperature and humidity extremes - Smoke, dust and most likely airborne solvents...  Sometimes I wonder if I'd be better off living in a tent. %)
"We intend to produce men who are able to light a fire for Liberty in men's minds, and make them the finest rifle marksmanship Instructors on the planet." - Son of Martha

"Tyrants rise and fall, but tyranny lasts forever." -Me

[What kind of megalomaniac quotes himself?]

Taylor

#17
January 14, 2013, 11:35:09 PM
Quote from: AFTERMATH on January 14, 2013, 08:32:21 PM
Quote from: Mark Davis on January 14, 2013, 12:47:16 AM
Hang fire is a genuine concern, thanks for bringing it up. I do not know the enviroment of your bench. I live in a very dry climate, my bench is in a tight room dedicated to reloading and gun stuff. very occonassionly a bit of oil or gun cleaning solvent will get airborne in there.

Some might describe the environment as hostile.  Temperature and humidity extremes - Smoke, dust and most likely airborne solvents...  Sometimes I wonder if I'd be better off living in a tent. %)

Bring 'em on over to Taylor & Dicey's 25m backyard range and see if they go boom.
Honoring the memory of Adonijah Taylor (1730-1810) my Grandfather seven generations back, Deerfield MA Militiaman and Patriot, who answered the alarm on April 19, 1775 and along with his six sons served in the War of the Revolution.

"What good fortune for governments that the people do not think." - Adolf Hitler

"All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party." - Mao Tse Tung

"Those bold enough to believe that they can change the world, are usually those which do."
-Albert Einstein

"Let Freedom never perish in your hands."
-Joseph Addison

Sly223

#18
January 15, 2013, 10:22:51 AM
If something is wrong with these components,
it is not a time related incident;
but an event related incident that can and will cause properties to change.(ie.. Air moisture,or exteame temp.)
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