Project Appleseed

Got into a conversation this morning over on RF Central. Some fellow having stove pipe issues and of course many were suggesting an after market extractor. I made the comment that extractors are there ONLY to extract unfired/dud rounds and would not/could not cause stove pipes. Of course all the experts disagree.

My wife wanted to go shoot, OK...I started fiddling with my rifle. "What are you doing?" "Pulling the exractor out of it." Of course she thought I was nuts. The gun has had about 300 rounds through it since the last cleaning. Ran ten mags through it...100 rounds.. ZERO MALFUNCTIONS with no extractor at all. So, believe extractors are the cause of stove pipes if you wish, it's simply false. It's only function is to remove unfired/dud rounds and will run 100% as long as one of those conditions aren't needed.....O.L.

Cool!

So, what in your opinion, is the main reason for stove pipes in a 10-22?

Quote from: colycat on July 14, 2012, 04:23:13 PM
Cool!

So, what in your opinion, is the main reason for stove pipes in a 10-22?

Anything that slows the bolt down, usually dirty or tight after market stuff. The other is ammo more often than cleaning issues. Seen a lot of 10-22's having problems on the line, hand them CCI MM RN, problems go away. Our's will occasionally hang up on CCI HP but that's the nature of HP's in a semi-auto gun. Always look at ammo and cleaning first. After market and dirty magazines are weak links too for issues, not just stove pipes....O.L.

I have one 10-22 that has a very light stock on it.  After checking what you just outlined, it still does it with some shooters.  The problem seems to be the that the (young girl,) usually does not have the stock pulled tightly into the shoulder pocket.  It seems that enough of the recoil action is spent on moving the rifle, not the bolt, so the thing stove pipes.

That's a possiblity.. Many light weight pistols will malfunction if you limp wrist them. Try a higher powered ammo. Polishing up the inside of the receiver, polishing up tool marks on the bolt. My whole point was the extractor is NEVER the culprit when it comes to those types of malfunctions....O.L.

And your point is well taken, as everyone wants to blame the extractor.  I'm not smart enough to think of doing what you did.

Quote from: oladcock on July 14, 2012, 06:18:54 PM
That's a possiblity.. Many light weight pistols will malfunction if you limp wrist them. Try a higher powered ammo. Polishing up the inside of the receiver, polishing up tool marks on the bolt. My whole point was the extractor is NEVER the culprit when it comes to those types of malfunctions....O.L.

I probably wouldn't say never.  There's always a possibility.
But I would tend to agree.  They're blow-back operated, so really it's the shell pushing the bolt back.  More likely would be the ejector, but most likely would be short stroking caused by bad ammo, dirty rifle, etc...

If it is a new 10-22 this will do it. I've seen this several times since Nemohunter and I worked it out last year. When I have a student experiencing stovepipes I give them CCI MM 40 gr, if the problem persists I check their magazine for wear marks. I almost always find them. I give them one of my old magazines and the problem disappears.

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=25471.0

My old mags are cast, but machined for fit. The new mags are "precision" cast, not machined, and don't fit worth a darn. I don't know if Ruger would take them back, I sanded down my one new "precision" cast mag and it runs fine now.

YHJ

I took some measurements on a 10-22 this morning. If you look at total bolt travel, the bolt has to 88% of it's total travel for the ejector to do it's thing. Obvious if it doesn't travel that far, it will not eject the round as it should. The bolt only has to travel 69% of it's range to pick up the next round. So, if the bolt is dragging on something, be it dirt/thick lubrication in the receiver, or dragging on the magazine so it doesn't travel that 88%, it's going to stove pipe. If it passes 69% but not 88%, it's going to pick up another round along with not ejecting the spent round. We've all seen that log jam. The bulk ammo especially will run along then you get one that just didn't "sound" right. I'd bet if run through a chrono, we'd see some just don't have the horsepower to fully cycle the action. Load up rounds too light and any semi will malfunction, ain't the guns fault. Interfer with the slide, it'll malfunction... Ain't the guns fault.

YHJ, yep, I keep Scotch Brite pads and fine emery boards in my kit, polish up the marks and problems go away....O.L.

Quote from: oladcock on July 15, 2012, 04:07:02 PM
I took some measurements on a 10-22 this morning. If you look at total bolt travel, the bolt has to 88% of it's total travel for the ejector to do it's thing. Obvious if it doesn't travel that far, it will not eject the round as it should. The bolt only has to travel 69% of it's range to pick up the next round. So, if the bolt is dragging on something, be it dirt/thick lubrication in the receiver, or dragging on the magazine so it doesn't travel that 88%, it's going to stove pipe. If it passes 69% but not 88%, it's going to pick up another round along with not ejecting the spent round. We've all seen that log jam. The bulk ammo especially will run along then you get one that just didn't "sound" right. I'd bet if run through a chrono, we'd see some just don't have the horsepower to fully cycle the action. Load up rounds too light and any semi will malfunction, ain't the guns fault. Interfer with the slide, it'll malfunction... Ain't the guns fault.

YHJ, yep, I keep Scotch Brite pads and fine emery boards in my kit, polish up the marks and problems go away....O.L.

That's a great observation, and clearly explains why this is the most common malf on a 10/22. 

And by the way, it's even nastier than it sounds.  The laws of physics say that the energy to compress a spring varies as x^2, where x is the displacement of the spring.
(See for instance, http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/physics/work/node5.html)

So it's not just the linear distance from 69% to 88% of the bolt stroke where this would happen.  More like 49% compared to 77% (those numbers squared).  That's clearly a wide range of energies that will be able to strip a round from the mag, but will fail to cleanly eject. 

(Getting those numbers exactly would require measuring the bolt spring compression directly.)

With all due respect, I disagree with you. I have tried running a 10-22 without the extractor and had nothing but failures. So my experience is completely opposite than yours.

Extracting live rounds is NOT the only purpose of extractors. During the recoil cycle the extractor has to hold the spent cartridge case tight to the bolt face. If the extractor fails to hold the case in place, gravity will pull it down and away from the bolt face before the case is far enough back to hit the ejector.

I fit the extractors to cam out 0.015" as a case is slid up under it. If it lacks this you file the inside of the extractor where it hits the bolt slot, which effectively makes the hook longer. I fit mine to this standard and have tested the rifles for 500 rounds of SV ammo with out cleaning, with no failures to eject.

Bolt speed or cartridge energy has very, very little to do with stovepipes. A properly designed blow back 22 should have a working range of 250% from minimum to maximum loadings. A properly fit extractor does make all the difference.

"With all due respect, I disagree with you. I have tried running a 10-22 without the extractor and had nothing but failures. So my experience is completely opposite than yours."

With the same respect, you had poor ammo or something else messed up! I know all the theory folks use to sell all these aftermarket parts. It's the caseing pushing the bolt back, not the bolt pulling the caseing. If what you say was true, no way would these guns run. We tried it today with a buddies 15-22 cause he didn't believe it either, ran great till he had a dud at about round 200. I run mine well past 400-500 rounds also with no failures......O.L.

I ran SV Olin/Winchester match grade mil surplus ammo and Federal Auto-Match.

Bob Dunlop of the American Gunsmithing Institute teaches that stovepipes are an extractor issue. I'm a working Gunsmith and I DO NOT sell aftermarket parts. I fit the OEM unit that may be right on the edge of the tolerance stack and therefore not holding the spent case tight to the bolt face. 10 minutes work and a small flat file are all that's needed.

I have fit hundreds of OEM extractors as described and eliminated the problem too many times to believe otherwise.

If the extractor is only there to extract unfired rounds, why do some manufactures use not one but TWO extractors on blow-back 22s?

Most of the time, in my experience, stovepiping on an Appleseed line with a Ruger 10/22 or Marlin 795 is because the action is bone dry which is creating too much friction for the bolt to move far enough out of the way for the spent casing to eject in time. Usually this occurs on Sunday morning. Typically adding oil to allow the bolt to travel freely solves the problem.

I am not disagreeing with anyone else's answer just wanted to add something to try if it happens at an Appleseed before deciding its a more complicated problem with the rifle.

Quote from: Edheler on July 16, 2012, 05:47:28 PM
Most of the time, in my experience, stovepiping on an Appleseed line with a Ruger 10/22 or Marlin 795 is because the action is bone dry which is creating too much friction for the bolt to move far enough out of the way for the spent casing to eject in time. Usually this occurs on Sunday morning. Typically adding oil to allow the bolt to travel freely solves the problem.

I am not disagreeing with anyone else's answer just wanted to add something to try if it happens at an Appleseed before deciding its a more complicated problem with the rifle.

Yep, it's always lack of bolt speed, be it dirty or otherwise. The designers of these things have to try to ride the middle of the road on ammo power. Too soft a spring and high powered ammo, slams the gun around but it'll work with light ammo. Too stiff, will work with higher powered ammo and not lighter. Any time we're going down in ammo power with a semi, the odds of malfunction goes up, to the point they won't function at all and stove pipes are the first signs.

SV rounds are a full 22-25% lower horsepower than HV. Add in probably 10-20% variation in production quality control, add poor or dirty lubrication, the problems start showing.  Yep, if holding the round to the bolt face was the ticket, they'd malfunction every time without the extractor....O.L.

The only lube I use on a 10-22 is the charging handle rod. Everything else is left dry. I can run 500 plus rounds through my rifles with out any problem and no failure to eject.

I can shoot from 22 LONG to CCI MiniMags with out  problem. Bolt velocity is not a factor in stove pipes.

The main resistance to recoil in the system is the hammer spring.

I don't buy or sell aftermarket extractors. I have bought one each of the popular aftermarket ones and found they were no different or better than the OEM. I fit the extractor to the rifle, just as most parts on most guns have to be.

Quote from: Edheler on July 16, 2012, 05:47:28 PMI am not disagreeing with anyone else's answer just wanted to add something to try if it happens at an Appleseed before deciding its a more complicated problem with the rifle.

You make a good point.

If the rifle has run in the past and starts having problems, a good cleaning is the first thing to do.

If it is a new rifle with a problem, fit the extractor.

      You don't really need that ejector thingy either if you have the extractor.  I shot an entire afternoon before I could trace down that occasional Failure to eject.
      One other cause for a stovepipe is the bolt handle hitting the spent/ejected case on the rebound and flipping it back into the chamber.     

Milt

Quote from: duc-dog on July 16, 2012, 07:48:55 PMYou don't really need that ejector thingy either if you have the extractor.  I shot an entire afternoon before I could trace down that occasional Failure to eject.
     
Milt

If you run OEM mags you are correct. The OEM "EJECTOR" is need if you run non-factory mags. OEM mags have the ejector build into the mag itself.

I'm a member of the American Gunsmithing Institutes "Gun Club." I can ask questions of their Master Gunsmiths. I will pose this question to them if anyone is interested.

Quote from: oladcock on July 15, 2012, 04:07:02 PM
I took some measurements on a 10-22 this morning. If you look at total bolt travel, the bolt has to 88% of it's total travel for the ejector to do it's thing. Obvious if it doesn't travel that far, it will not eject the round as it should. The bolt only has to travel 69% of it's range to pick up the next round.

The spent cartridge case will be ejected by the ejector on the mag before the bolt travels far enough back to pick up the next round.

QuoteSo, if the bolt is dragging on something, be it dirt/thick lubrication in the receiver, or dragging on the magazine so it doesn't travel that 88%, it's going to stove pipe. If it passes 69% but not 88%, it's going to pick up another round along with not ejecting the spent round.

Again, by the time the bolt is back far enough to pick up a new round, the spent case will be ejected if using OEM mags.

QuoteWe've all seen that log jam. The bulk ammo especially will run along then you get one that just didn't "sound" right. I'd bet if run through a chrono, we'd see some just don't have the horsepower to fully cycle the action. Load up rounds too light and any semi will malfunction, ain't the guns fault. Interfer with the slide, it'll malfunction... Ain't the guns fault.

The rifle is designed for 22 LR. I have found no statement from Ruger that the rifle requires the use of hyper or high velocity ammo to cycle properly. I have found that note on other makes of 22 rifles but not the 10-22. The rifle should run on ANY cartridge labeled 22 LR, period. I run 22 LONGS, the lowest velocity round that will cycle through the mag and I don't have any failures to eject. If velocity is the cause of stovepipes, how can I run 22 LONG ammo with out an issue?

Just for laughs and jiggles I contacted Ruger and AGI. Both gave me the same info. As oladcock notes, using hyper ammo you can make an out of spec rifle run. But that's not the cure, it simply masks the issue of a poorly fit extractor. To get the rifle to run with ANY 22 LR ammo, fit the extractor to the bolt. Replacing the OEM extractor with an aftermarket extractor that fits the bolt no better than the OEM, you will gain nothing. If the extractor holds the case tightly to the bolt face as it should, velocity will have absolutely NO effect on ejection using any 22 LR ammo.

I had a family add over sized, after market charging handles to their 4 different rifles and this slowed the blow back just enough to cause stove pipe after stove pipe all weekend the event prior no problems and the event after they changed back no problems!

Quote from: Sly223 on July 17, 2012, 06:45:53 PM
I had a family add over sized, after market charging handles to their 4 different rifles and this slowed the blow back just enough to cause stove pipe after stove pipe all weekend the event prior no problems and the event after they changed back no problems!

I'll bet money that I could make those rifles run as they should. If the handles slowed one, or four, actions enough to prevent the rifle from running, than every rifle these charging handles were put into would fail to run.

Cause and effect are sometimes missed.

I don't know much about the physics or mechanics involved, but one of my loaner LTR's used to stovepipe constantly with federal bulk ammo and occasionally with other brands. I sent the bolt to douglas34474 and it has several thousand rounds through it in dusty Southern California, mostly in the hands of inexperienced shooters who routinely drop ammo and mags in the dirt. No problems at all so far. This was by far the best $25 I ever spent on gunsmithing. Based on my experience, Douglas has got the magic touch for fixing stovepiping 10/22's.

One other thing that I have seen is a barrel kinda twisted and the extractor rubs in the barrel slot.  I noticed the extractor was burnished along the leading edge while looking for stovepipe reasons on a rifle that I picked from a pawnshop that had an aftermarket barrel.  I loosened up the V-block spun the barrel slightly and that solved the problem.

Quote from: douglas34474 on July 16, 2012, 07:08:21 PM
The only lube I use on a 10-22 is the charging handle rod. Everything else is left dry. I can run 500 plus rounds through my rifles with out any problem and no failure to eject.

That would get you to about 11 AM Sunday here in New England. Maybe. When it runs for 1200 rounds without giving problems THEN I'd be interested in trying to run my rifles dry like yours.

I tend to run my 10/22s wet - oil the bolt, oil the charging handle rod. I also have the much-maligned (at least in this thread) Volquartsen Exact Edge extractors in mine. They also have a few other mods, none of which should make any difference for this discussion. The point is that since adding the Volquartsen units, I haven't had any FTEs at all.

One other thing I remember reading on RimfireCentral is that some of those folks polish the charging handle rod - I have NO idea how as it would be a complete PITA to have to hold that spring to one end or the other while polishing the rod. However, it seems to me that that part could also add friction into the bolt cycling, thus the polishing. If I ever have FTE problems again, that will probably be the first thing I'll look at.

I have seen on slo-mo video empty cases bouncing off of an oversized after market bolt handle and going back into the ejection port.

As for the lube issue Liquid wrench dry lube is the best of both worlds IMO.

Larry

Quote from: Padawan on August 25, 2012, 09:53:59 AM
I have seen on slo-mo video empty cases bouncing off of an oversized after market bolt handle and going back into the ejection port.

As for the lube issue Liquid wrench dry lube is the best of both worlds IMO.

Larry

I just use oil. Usually Tri-flow, but it doesn't seem to matter.

If my 10/22 stovepipes with one mag, and not the other, it means that my newer mag is dragging on the bolt?

Quote from: RimfireRifleman on September 04, 2012, 05:31:51 PM
If my 10/22 stovepipes with one mag, and not the other, it means that my newer mag is dragging on the bolt?

It means that your extractor has a border line fit. The case should be carried back to the ejector no matter what LR ammo or magazine you use.

Pull your bolt from the rifle. Take a cartridge and slide it up under the extractor hook. You should b able to see the extractor hook move away from the cartridge 0.010 to 0.015" as the rim goes under the hook. This standard works for all 22s.

The VQ extractor has a hook 0.005" longer than the OEM unit. This will many times make a failing rife function.  The issue I find with the VQ unit is it's sharp bottom corner on the hook. On some rifles this sharp corner will catch in the soft brass and will not allow the bolt to return to battery.

Quote from: RimfireRifleman on September 04, 2012, 05:31:51 PM
If my 10/22 stovepipes with one mag, and not the other, it means that my newer mag is dragging on the bolt?

It's the mag if it works with one and not another. Look for drag marks, rough spots, or flashing. Hit it with a little scotch brite or 400grit or finer...O.L.