Project Appleseed

OK...another topic segue.

I just installed the Tech Sight TSR 100 on my nascent LTR. They come with a 50yd and 100 yd dual aperture rear sight. I presume the one with the thicker stalk is the 50 yd'er. However, Tech Sight's FAQ section doesn't specify which is which (that I could find, anyway).  Is my assumption correct?  Also, what is the purpose of having the same aperture peep hole on two different sized supports? It doesn't seem to affect the sight picture any  .

Thanks.

Keith

I don't have the 100 on my rifle so I don't have experience with it.  I'd say that the taller "leg" of the rear sight was the 100 yd sight.  See if you can measure which one of the two has the aperature that is farther away from the top of the receiver.  The higher the aperature, higher you will "lift" the front sight to center it and that will increase the arc of the bullet's trajectory to enable it to hit a target at a longer range.

Having said that, nothing guarantees those sights on your rifle with the ammo you are shooting will be dead on at 50 or 100 yds. until you shoot the rifle and sight it in.  Since most of the AQT shooting with a .22 is done at 25 meters I sighted mine in at that range.  With mine (carbine version of the 10/22) and Remington Golden Bullets it hits POA at 25 yds. and at 100 yds. with no sight adjustment necessary.

That's part of the fun.  Learning what you can do with your rifle. 

I had a problem recently.
I replaced the original bolt handle with a Power Custom SS model.  I did two rifles exactly the same . When I went to the range one wouldn't fire, click but no bang. The other rifle worked well. So back on went the original part. And this rifle shot as before.
When I had the rifle apart I couldn't see any problem. Where did I go wrong?
Thanks

Did you try to reinstall the bolt handle again?  It is possible that if you did not get the bolt spring guide rod snapped onto place in the receiver properly that it will not let the bolt fully engage.  It will let the trigger "cock" and fire but will not hit the firing pin. 

Chris
aka golfer7080

Added the Tech sighs to my 10/22 today. They made a world of difference. Thumbs up.
Getting ready for April 19th.

Quote from: golfer7080 on February 20, 2008, 11:33:29 AM
I talked with Larry (owner/designer) at tech-sights today.  The front sight post is fine with the TSR-100 series sights.  The issue came up with the 200 series.  The addition of the elevation adjustment on the rear sight makes the front post sight a tad short for 25m shooting.  They are looking into adding a "tall" front sight post as an accesory item and possibly incorporating a "tall" sight with the 200 series.  He has the front sight posts made for his sights and they are "thinned" compared to AR sight posts to present a better and more accurate sight picture for the .22's.   I have been researching sight posts and am looking for the most reasonable price for the taller sight post.  I will get some and play with "thinning" these to see how it works out.  I have added some links to where you can order sight posts and sight tools (most reasonable so far).

http://www.del-ton.com/Front_Sight_Post_p/st1020.htm
http://www.del-ton.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=a1+sight

Has anyone had a chance to try out one of the extended front sight posts?  I got my sights installed last week and took it out today for a rough zero session (no sling/mounts yet and table was still under a snowdrift).  Its close but I don't want to raise that front sight anymore and the rear is maxed.

Here's the sight post at Midway:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=810857
DPMS has it cheaper but it looks like it will take them longer to ship and I don't want to wait. Figures, I just received a Midway order too, guess I'll have to find some more stuff there to order...

Steelheart

I just "overhauled" my old 10/22 yesterday evening. I'm hoping to go the Fall Knob Creek Appleseed shoot and am setting it up for that, plus to use as a low-cost trainer for my M1 Garands.

Years ago I had installed QD sling swivels, an extended mag release, and a set of Williams aperture sights. I decided that I did not really like the Williams sights - mainly I was dissatisfied with the bead front sight. I mainly punch paper, and the bead was hard to get a consistent 6:00 hold. Also the deal of having to loosen a setscrew and slide the rear sight to adjust it was annoying - I prefer something with click adjustments - spoiled by the Garands, I guess.

But Garands and M14's have the BEST irons ever put on a rifle, IMHO! If I can get something even approaching that perfection on my 10/22 I'll be happy.

So, yesterday evening I put on a set of TSR-100 Tech Sights, but I decided to use an M16A2 front sight post instead of the standard A1 sight post. I like the A2 post because it is a square post, not a cylindrical one like the A1. Of course it only has 4-clicks of adjustment instead of 5, but it always presents a flat face to the rear sight. I'm going to sight in for 25 meters, and then adjust for elevation at different ranges using "come-ups" of the front sight clicks. Oh, while I was at it, I used a narrower NM post, too.

I also installed a Volquartsen auto bolt release, and I drifted out the no-longer-used stocker open sight off of the barrel and drifted in a dovetail filler.

Just for looks I added a Ram-Line handguard. I think that the Tech Sights are visually so high, the addition of the handguard seems to help "balance" the gun's appearance - the only non-functional mod on the rifle, but I like it!

I put a G.I. web sling on it, but since I already had QD sling swivels I took the rear clip off of the sling and just looped it through the rear QD swivel. Now, to sling up, instead of un-clipping the sling from the rear swivel I just pop the button and unhook the swivel from it's base. The other nice thing about having the QD swivels is that, when I want to walk downrange to check my target, I don't have to un-loop from the sling - I just undo the front QD and leave the sling on my arm. Convenient.

Also, a while back, I stripped the original finish off of the birch or whatever mystery wood that Ruger made the stock out of, and re-finished it with BLO and a touch of Brownells Pre-64 stain. Looks really good, and I was able to sand out a chip on the heel of the stock to boot.

I have an extended buttpad on order, and am just waiting for it to arrive. I think the original stock is just a little short for me.

Tomorrow if the back yard isn't like quicksand from all the rain today, I hope to get out and zero the rifle at 25 meters. I am going to set the rear sight at mechanical zero and get windage dialed in by shifting the front sight in its dovetail - it has a setscrew so I should be able to tweak it just like a Garand. Might need files to set the elevation on the front post, though, but like I said, I only plan on shooting at 25 meters.

Nice having a 25 meter range in the backyard!

Regarding magazines - I'm not a big fan of the "banana clip" look. I find that they just get in the way (especially in prone and sitting), and just scream "Hey Look! I'm a .22!". I find that the standard 10-round Ruger rotary mags are just about perfect!

Sounds good, tpelle.

Please post a pic of your LTR, if you can.

Quote from: wcmartin1 on March 15, 2008, 01:33:18 PM
Sounds good, tpelle.

Please post a pic of your LTR, if you can.

Here ya go!









BTW, the rifle continues to evolve!

As of now, the big ol' Goat and Logo on the top of the handguard is gone!  A flat file, a sheet of 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper, and some elbow grease took care of that!  I figure if the Ram-Line Corporation would like to come to some financial agreement with me for my services in advertising their product, then we can talk.  Until then, I'm not gonna have that big thing uglyin' up my rifle.

Also, the extended buttplate came in today, and I put it on.  This rifle originally had a hard-plastic buttplate, and it never did really fit the buttstock that well - there was always a gap between the buttplate and the wood.  I'm happy with the extended buttplate.  It not only lengthens the pull just that little bit it needed, but it conforms to the shape of the butt profile better.

Cool!  That handguard does look good.

Quote from: wcmartin1 on March 15, 2008, 05:21:39 PM
Cool!  That handguard does look good.

Thanks.  I like it.

As far as I can tell, there are a couple of different kinds available.  I was originally thinking about buying the steel one that someone makes, but I think it attaches to the wood stock with screws.  I figure this would make the rifle too hard to field strip, as you'd have to unscrew the handguard screws before you could take the barreled action out of the stock.

The Ram-Line handguard attaches with two metal straps that wrap around the barrel.  One goes around just in front of the V-block and has a hole in it that the takedown screw goes throuh.  The other passes around the barrel just behind the band.  Both band have holes punched in the ends, and there's a sort of nut kinda thing that goes through the two holes on each band.  There are two screws that then go through the handguard and into those nuts to hold the handguard on.

This way the handguard is mounted to the barrel and comes out with the barreled action when you field strip the rifle.

I sorta screwed up when I mounted the handguard.  I was just about to put the screws in, and lo and behold there was a tube of blue Locktite handy.......and the rest is history!  Now, when I try to take the handguard off, the little nut kinda things spin in the two straps!  She aint comin' off!

Note to self:  Don't use Locktite on handguard screws.

OK, one last step and my LTR will be complete. I need to attach the sling swivels and screws. It appears from the above photos that the front attaches to the barrel band (the Ram Line is a nice touch ). Is this correct? And if a rifle has no barrelband, is there any procedure for determining optimum placement of both front and rear swivel? Thanks.

Keith

Quote from: trainsktg on March 16, 2008, 03:35:27 AM
OK, one last step and my LTR will be complete. I need to attach the sling swivels and screws. It appears from the above photos that the front attaches to the barrel band (the Ram Line is a nice touch ). Is this correct? And if a rifle has no barrelband, is there any procedure for determining optimum placement of both front and rear swivel? Thanks.

Keith

The QD swivels that I used are made to fit to the front barrel band.  If I recall correctly - I put these on years ago and don't recall for sure - I had to file a "gap" between where the band screws together to accept the front swivel.  Obviously, if you have no band, then you'll have to improvise.  I don't think there's a hard-and-fast rule - probably just look at pics of other rifles and guestimate.  I just measured my M1, and its 16-1/4" from the trigger to the front swivel, and on my 10/22 the same measurement is 13-3/4".

THis is how I fit swivels for myself and for others that I have done the work for.  The rear swivel should be no closer than 2" to the rear edge of the stock.  This is so there is less chance of the stock splitting.  I have mine set at 2.5" from the rear.  Make sure that you find the centerline of the stock before drilling.  I strongly suggest using a center punch to set your mark before drilling.  This can be a difficult area to start and nothing is as bad as a drill bit that "walks" on wood.  If you do not have a center punch you can get a spring loaded one from Wal-Mart or most any hardware store for $5.00 - $7.00.  These work on most any surface that you would be drilling and are very handy to have.  If you don't want to get one of these a SMALL phillips screwdriver will work.  Tap it gently, you are just trying to set a small (small) indentation to give the drill bit a place to start.  Again, make sure that you have the centerline of the stock.  This is most important for the rear stud as this will be the narrowest part of the wood and the asthetics are terrible if you get it off line.  Make sure that you use a sharp drill bit. 

As for the front swivel.  The proceedure that I use is easier if you have someone that can help you out.  Get into each position and mark the stock where the "valley" between your thumb and index finger is.  A dull pencil usually works great for this.  I mount the front swivel 2" forward of the most forward mark.  This gives room so that the sling does not "pinch" your hand when you are "slung in".  It also gives just enough room that you can shoot with a glove on if you need to.  Again, I always use a center punch to mark where I want to drill.  It gives you that one last chance to make sure that you have the exact center line of the stock and this IS where you want the sling swivel to be.  It also keeps the drill bit from walking.  Make sure that you are using a sharp drill bit.  I have seen wood torn and chipped because the bit was not sharp. 

These are not hard and fast manufacturer guidelines or measurements.  These are just what has worked for me and with a lot of installations I have done for others.  Hope this helps.

golfer7080

Quote from: tpelle on March 15, 2008, 08:42:32 AM
But Garands and M14's have the BEST irons ever put on a rifle, IMHO!

That's exactly why I put an actual M14 front sight on mine.



I used a Williams front sight riser, and hand-filed the top part of it to match the M14 sight's dovetail. I have an old Redfield peep on the rear, but the M14 sight height should work fine with any of the currently available Williams peeps as well, if my measurements are correct. One of these days I'm going to get around to filing a dovetail in a common Weaver 10/22 scope base and drifting an M1 carbine sight into that--again, my measurements show it should work.

These options are IMHO a little more visually attractive (and lower, which means a better cheek weld) than the Tech Sights.

Snake, you're a genius!

As far as I can tell, the only thing really cheesy with the Tech Sights is the front sight base - it doesn't fit in the dovetail very precisely, and only works because you can cinch it down with the setscrew.  I really like your idea, although, honestly, I'm not too sure that the M1 Carbine sight is all that great.  I have a (dreaded) Universal with the later style sight on it, the one with the slider for elevation, and it feels sort of flimsy to me.  It does adjust for windage with 'clicks' though, so it would be better than the standard Williams RG aperture sight.

After reading this very informative thread I'm still wondering about swivel configuration. I purchased the swivel screw set that attaches to the front barrel band. For sling shooting, would it be best to attach the screw to the fore-stock and remove the barrel band preventing slight flexing of the barrel under tension?

If I upgraded the stock to get away from the barrel band altogether, should I avoid one with a top cover (Tapco) vs. one without, (Hogue) for the same reason?

I would argue that it's more important whether you like the Tapco stock with the pistol grip and adjustable buttstock or a more traditional stock like the Hogue.

I have a Hogue on a 10/22 and like it well.

I also have a Tapco on an SKS (I know - different animal) and like the pistol grip and flexibility of the adjustable buttstock.

Either will work well.  It's matter of preference.  I would not be concerned with the "top cover" (upper handguard) on the Tapco.

Good luck, Sir.

Thor's Hammer and I both have Tapco stocks on both 10/22 and SKS, and have outfitted both with front and rear M-14 swivels from Numrich Gun Parts, closely mimicing our M1A's, in addition to being much stronger. Also, when installing my Tapco 10/22 stock, I cut off the front 1 1/2 " of the upper forearm cover and used it as a sort of barrel band, after glass-bedding the barrel into the forearm of the stock. This also allows a very solid attachment for the M-14 swivels.

Longshot

   Stick with the band mounted swivel. It's been my experience at a few Appleseeds that the folks who remove the band suffer for a while then put it back when they want to shoot acurately.  JB

Quote from: Junior Birdman on March 23, 2008, 02:22:14 PM
   Stick with the band mounted swivel. It's been my experience at a few Appleseeds that the folks who remove the band suffer for a while then put it back when they want to shoot acurately.  JB

Thanks JB, seems to me I could get an adequate sling tension without tourqueing steel. Not having tried yet I don't really know. I'm more inclined to keep the stock for my first Appleseed if I can just go that route. After that I'll be a better judge of what I want in a stock long term. I hope to get an AR so the Tapco looks good. I get the feeling learning marksmanship Appleseed-style might be easier on the Hogue, cheek-weld and all. Installing swivels looks pretty simple, so does changing a stock.

 The stock carbine stock was too short for me so I replaced it with a Houge because it seemed to work better with the Tech Sights. I now want to build another 1022 with a scope and a stock with a higher cheek piece. Tommy

If I may jump in and give my opinion....

I purchased the barrel band sling mount, used it for 50 round the removed it.  It actually came loose under proper sling tension.  I also found, and the instructor at the shoot also noticed, that the barrel band was also torqing the barrel and POI at about 1/4 to 3/8" of POA down range.  I would venture to recommend staying away from the barrel band mount.  I ended up drilling just behind the barrel band (its now removed ) where the carbine stock drops off to fit the barrel band.  Right there, just behind the band, and about 1"  from the butt of the stock (mounting points I mean) are really close dimensions to a M1As sling mounts.

Each rifle is a different page of the book.  Shoot enough of them and you'll see.

My experience is anything touching a barrel is bbbaaaaddddd.  Between barrel vibration and the barrel heating up I've seen movement of the rounds on the target as the number of shots in the group grows.

The above statement may not be true for some rifles.  I just know that when I encountered one that had an issue and checked the barrel was usually contacting the stock channel somewhere.

For what it's worth, my 10/22 has a US Enfield rear sling swivel (attached with the correct two screws).  If it worked on a US Enfield in combat in WW1 it should do fine on my little 10/22.  The front sling swivel is an M14 front sling swivel (attached with two allen head screws, heads outside, flat washer and locknuts countersunk into the stock below the barrel channel).  Again, if that sling swivel was tough enough for an M14 it will do fine on the 10/22.  Slling?  USGI 1 & 1/4" cotton web of course.

I left my barrel band on the rifle as it does not seem to affect the groups, but I'm not pulling on it with the sling. 

I think if I replaced the stock I'd like the Tapco for the pistol grip. I worry the traditional stock could aggravate some tendonitis I'm having in my right wrist. A pistol grip would straighten out the wrist right? I shot last night and the wrist didn't like the standard position. The too-slick plastic shoulder piece probably needs to go too. Thing is, Midway has Hogues on sale for $54.00. Tapco's are $89.00 from CTD. They both look plenty solid for sling shooting. The Dreganov type ones look like you could break them with a sling. Is that possible? Does the Tapco work OK for Appleseed despite it's adjustable stock? It looks pretty solid. Polymer is "growing" on me. All my LTR parts have been received. A stock is my last decision.

I had feeding problems big-time with my new BC hot lips mags w/ federal bulk. I'll have to dedicate a range session to really checking them out before I dispair. My old ramlines always worked OK. Probably should have sprung for the Steel Lips.

I have a Choate Dragunov stock on my LTR. No way are you going to break it with a sling. I don't know about the ATI version. The Tapco stock has gotten good reviews. Check around- a lot of places sell the Tapco stock and prices will vary. You might find a deal somewhere.

muxtex,
I got my tapco t-6 stocks on ebay.  That is where I bought mine.  Here is a link for a tan version that is selling for $70.53 + $14.00 shipping.  If you don't like tan and can wait a few days they usually come up for about $70.00-$75.00. 
http://cgi.ebay.com/Tapco-6-Position-Stock-Set-Desert-Tan-for-Ruger-10-22_W0QQitemZ310033505751QQihZ021QQcategoryZ310QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQ_trksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem

Quote from: Cache on March 01, 2008, 01:07:56 AM
Since there is this new emphasis on using .22 caliber rifles at AS...

AND since the current AQT is scored based on 30 cal. hole sizes... (am I right on that?)

May it be resolved that there might be a niche for an AQT with scoring lines adjusted for .22 caliber hole as opposed to superimposing a 30 cal shell over a 22 cal hole to judge the 'close ones'?

Nah, no need to adjusting the lines, just score it as-is.  Same with .223 ... never liked the "thurty cal adjustment" quirk --- seems not using it will just mean you'll end up shooting more accurately in the long run.

For those of us who prefer AR type rifles, Brownell's is now carrying a new product to dress up the 10/22 in the AR style.  The AR22 Receiver Chassis.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/productdetail.aspx?p=26206&mc_ID=3011


The front sight may be tricky.  One could possibly use a 10/22 heavy barrel, turned down in a lathe if necessary, and an actual AR front sight base.  There are tons of rear sight options for a flattop AR.

It's a little spendy, but I may eventually get one for my wife to complement her MBR (after, of course, I finally build her MBR).  It's probably less expensive than a dedicated .22 upper, though.

I have no affiliation with Brownell's except as a regular customer.

Clod

WAHOO!!!

Just got back from picking up my 10/22 for my LTR build.  Lots of ideas...doubt I'll even take it shooting tomorrow...too much to do with my Appleseed primary and backup rifles...

As far as my plan, its changed a little...the stock will need some work.  Its about 3/4" shorter in length of pull than my Hogue-equipped pet 10/22...so its either get an extension (VERY likely) or get a new stock (likely, but not for a while).

I plan to:
- install some type of ghost-ring sights...prolly gonna be Tech-Sights (might be XS, though)
- work the hammer (I've got 2 spares from other builds I've done on 10/22s)
- install bolt buffer
- trim factory mag release to match the VQ one in my other 10/22
- install sling (mounts, et al.)
- install better extractor (VQ or Power Custom)
- install flash hider (I just like them...low on the list, for sure!)
- learn how to shoot like I know I can (on the cheap)

Thanks for the ideas, guys.  This is going to be a good little rifle...and good experience, to boot!

Byrdman