Project Appleseed

Okay, I read the section in "The Rifleman Series" on sight alignment (see below) but I need more info regarding the portion in red...
"1. SIGHT ALIGNMENT -- Line up the front and rear sights: Simply center the front sight in the rear sight. If you are shooting a rifle with a "peep sight" (more correctly, an "rear aperture sight"), you'll make sure that you are holding the rifle such that the top of the front sight post is in the center of the opening in the rear aperture sight."...http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=92.0

It seems to me the "center" of the rear aperture is a very tricky thing to judge, especially when your offset (distance of your eye from the rear aperture) or cheek weld may vary depending on your body position ( I find I can turkey neck a lot more standing than other positions, which translates into different offset/cheek welds).  And if your offset/cheek weld varies, the site picture varies (see attached image), and the closer the offset, the bigger the aperture appears, which seems to make for a whole lot more area where the center of the aperture may be.

So, is it better to have a consistent offset, no matter the body position, or to always turkey neck as much as possible and only have consistency within a given body position?

  I would submit that all 3 are exactly centered in the aperture, and that all 3 should result in good shots.  It would be next to impossible to get the exact same eye relief for each position, and it's not necessary.  Just cheek weld with the eye centered and do the 6 steps and all will be right with the world!    JB

Cache, weren't you asking about AR15/M16 sight adjustment earlier?  With AR type (5.56 mm anyway)rifles the military teaches you to put your nose on the charging handle as a way to have consistent cheek weld.  That means your eye is always the same distance behind the rear sight and in the same spot alignment wise. 

I'm sure there are many different body types/sizes in the military and it works for them.  Try it.

I'm going to be reeely reeely reeely picky here, so please don't throw rocks, or at least big ones.  The diagrams in the first post aren't strictly accurate.  As the shooter's cheek/eye get closer or further from the rear sight, the apparent size of the front sight changes very little, essentially imperceptably (spelling?).  The rear sight, however, changes size *very noticeably* with a couple of inches difference in the eye position.  I find that, even trying to "turkey neck" in all positions, my eye is most forward in prone, in between in sitting, and back while standing.

The best thing to do is ignore the rear sight as much as possible, as the shooter's brain will tend to subconsciously center the eye in the aperture, if the eye is consciously focusing on the front sight.  

Stay "in the bubble," mentally, and the problem usually solves itself.

Look THROUGH the rear sight, NOT AT IT is what I think you are looking for.

I tend to keep my cheekweld in a common location for all 4 positions, as much as I can.  I think this works out more over time, as you get used to the 4 positions and adjust back and forth with them.

Nose to the charging handle with the AR series, nose to thumb to surround on stock or heel of receiver on the M1 and M14 series rifles.

Buckshot

This is the very reason i hate aperture sights.  I play hell keeping my sights aligned (maybe I'm thinking too much).  My favorite irons are the old style v-notch on my 30-30.  IT just makes more sense to me.  I know thats blasphamous but I grew up shooting notch sights and there alignment seems more precise to me. 
I know that seems backwards.

Quote from: didactic on March 10, 2008, 10:24:21 PM
I'm going to be reeely reeely reeely picky here, so please don't throw rocks, or at least big ones.  The diagrams in the first post aren't strictly accurate.  As the shooter's cheek/eye get closer or further from the rear sight, the apparent size of the front sight changes very little, essentially imperceptably (spelling?).  The rear sight, however, changes size *very noticeably* with a couple of inches difference in the eye position.  I find that, even trying to "turkey neck" in all positions, my eye is most forward in prone, in between in sitting, and back while standing.

The best thing to do is ignore the rear sight as much as possible, as the shooter's brain will tend to subconsciously center the eye in the aperture, if the eye is consciously focusing on the front sight.  

Stay "in the bubble," mentally, and the problem usually solves itself.

Your right, the red target size should have stayed the same in each drawing, and I tried to represent the apature looking bigger by reducing the size of the front sight, which is also incorrect.  It seems though, despite my poor application of physics to my drawings, that my point is getting accross, and I appreciate the feedback.

Thanks! 

P.S. "imperceptibly" (Credit goes to Google toolbar spell check, because I can't speel worth a darn!)

Quote from: M1A4ME on March 10, 2008, 10:19:48 PM
Cache, weren't you asking about AR15/M16 sight adjustment earlier? 

Yeah, sort of, I posted another topic on adjusting the front site (I just got a new KNS .034 match front sight). 

You're perzactly right, your point did come across fine.  Sorry I was so picky.

My problem (one of 'em, anyway) is, unless I really concentrate, I want to center a round bullseye target in the aperture, and put the blade at its 6 o'clock.  Comes from learning on a target rifle, with an aperture front sight to go with its aperture rear. 

Think step 4, focus/focus.

Didactic you want to center the bullseye because you are looking at it. Shame on you.

The whole purpose of a spotweld/stockweld/cheekweld or whatever you want to call it is to consistantly place your eye in the same place in relation to the rear sight for each shot. Your eye will naturally center the front sight if you are focused on the front sight and really looking at it hard. The target will be very blurry but it is only a reference point so it doesn't matter. If your eye shifts position in relation to the rear sight your group will shift on the target. This is the real reason your group shifts if you change targets without adjusting your natural point of aim. As you muscle the rifle to the next target you change your spotweld and your group shifts

Consistancy of technique will make you a good shot.

VAshooter

+1 to what VA shooter said.  Your focus, if on the front sight, will just naturally line up centered.  Consistent cheek weld could be helped with a reference, like a piece of tape on the stock, something you could feel.  If you focus on the front sight ONLY, you will think LESS about lining things up, then consistency becomes your key.

About centering the post in the arpeture.

The eye naturally does this, you actually have to conciously force to NOT center the post in the arpeture. Yeah, some folks don't realize this.

So, if you're fighting the natural response, you will actually have trouble centering the post. Just relax, and let your eye do what it knows for that part. All you have to do is make sure it's right.

Folks,

Here's a curveball:  FOR THOSE WITH A SHORT SIGHT RADIUS
I shoot irons with a car-length AR.
For a long shot, (If I have the time) I cheat my head back a little.
It's not uncomfortable and it works.
One inch of head movement to the rear shrinks the rear aperture.
It also makes the front sight farther away from my eyeball.
The inherent accuracy potential of short sight radius is optimized this way.
If my nose was on the charging handle, I would produce larger groups.
With my head a little further back, I produce my smallest groups.

My front sight is a cheater, but it also keeps my head where it belongs.
It's a KNS hooded duplex crosshair.
The hooded part is essentially a "front aperture" that centers nicely inside the rear aperture.
The diameter of the hood prevents me from placing my head too far back.
(If I go too far back, the edges of the front hood disappear into the edges of the rear)
Keeping a uniform sliver of light around the front hood means my front and rear sights are aligned.
The crosshairs tell me if my sights are lined up with the target.
(I still use 6 O'Clock Hold with a 2 MOA offset.)

So, for head placement, I tend to go the other way a little bit.
I will humbly accept your collective rod of correction.
(But only of my groups don't open up too much)

sk

By using two apertures with one circle inside the other you are optimizing the sights. Service rifles use the post because a front aperture would block too much area and also won't work if don't have a sharply defined target like a black dot on a white paper. Two apertures are the most precise type of iron sights which is why all high precision target games use them.

Moving your head back will reduce the size of the rear aperture forcing you to hold tighter. Having two apertures forces you to maintain your eye directly in line with the sights.

Be aware that you are "cheating the system" and there are down sides. If you ever need to use the rifle in a real life or death situation those sights will fail you both at long range and in close too. You won't be able to pick out a target in camo against a wooded backround. Your sight picture will be way too busy to make fast shots in close as well but that may be helped with practice.

VAshooter

 In the past years,the way to get used to a peep sight is to sight on a blank paper or wall and think.think and think front sight focus. It doesn't take to long before it becomes a natural thing you do everytime you look through the peep.

Thanks, VAs!!  I had caught myself WANTING to center the bullseye sometimes, hadn't been able to analyze WHY I wanted to do that, even thought I knew it was wrong.  Focus harder on the front sight, to make the "urge" go away.  So the answer remains (as always) to focus on the six steps, just with fuller understanding. 

USAMU article about sight picture from the CMP attached.

Quote from: wcmartin1 on March 29, 2008, 02:04:05 AM
USAMU article about sight picture from the CMP attached.

Great article!
Hit the nail on the head for my question.