Project Appleseed

howdy

Have a Marlin 795 and it really gets along with Federal Lightning in the 50 round boxes. It is 1.47 a box of 50 at WM when you can get it, as is typical. Had 2 stovepipes in maybe 600 rounds in a BFN Marlin, so it does OK in a new rifle. Also the Winchester HP in the 333 bulk pack from WM did very well, about the same results. About 15 bucks I think. Both shoot raagged holes. 

I tend to notice the FTE's incidentally, I haven't done a documented study.

I have some federal in a 550 bulk I haven't tried yet. Bought it because they were out of the Lightning.

The 795 did cycle better than my 10/22 with Rem Thunderbolt, not as good as the Fed or Win though. My 10/22 is a finicky eater...

   FYI, I did get a case of the CMP stuff, (Aguila), and it shot clean and well.

   My rifle, (10/22), did not group as well with it as it does with it's "prefered" ammo, but it easily shot well within the 4 moa we require with no problems or malfs.

   Another 10/22 on the same line liked the CMP stuff better than its formerly prefered stuff, so as we all know, feed your rifle what it likes best!

   If you can still get the stuff from CMP I'd say it was worth the wait. The squirrels haven't noticed a difference.     JB

Here to report that the shooter with me used up most of a 550 Round Federal Value Pack at the Hinckley, MN AS - had a 3 or 4 odd sounding/low power rounds that in one case managed to get the slug to the paper, but just dented the paper and didn't cycle the bolt.   My 550 rd box didn't give as many problems.

Interestingly, after getting home we have been working with CCI mini mag and so far no problems at all and the groups have tightened noticeably.  Could be other factors involved, but we'll keep working w CCI ammo for awhile and see how performance holds out over a couple bricks.

I have had the best luck with the Federal 550 rd bricks from Wal Mart. I go through boxes of these without a malfunction of any kind in my 10/22. I have been to Appleseeds where shooters were going to leave early because they were out of ammo. These are cheap enough that I can give them a handfull to finish the weekend, and I have never had any complaints that it didn't work. every pay day I buy a couple of bricks if it is in stock. This is the only ammo I stock in 22LR.

Stay away from the Winchester Super X bulk packs. Out of a brick of those, I get several Failure to feeds and at least a dozen failure to fire. This isn't just in my 10/22, but in my old Winchester pump 22 and my MKI pistol. I have had mixed results with CCI and Remington.

http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=9031&dir=18|831

Found some .22LR online, Federal American Eagle 22 LR HV 38 Grain Plated HP $18.50 for 400 rounds. These copper plated hollowpoints fed well in both my .22 conversion AR and my 10/22 using factory mags. At the last Appleseed, the AR conversion saw 2 failure to fire with what I belive to be light hits. The 10/22 had zero failure to fire. This ammunition cycles the conversion kit and the 10/22 fine. I also have a .22 conversion kit for a pistol and this ammo does have trouble in my pistol conversion kit, not enough umph for the shorter barrel. The best groups from both rifles was about 1/2" on the green AQTs so they seem to be fairly consistant.

This ammo had failure to feeds using aftermarket bannana magazine in my 10/22. But then again, the bannana magazines for my 10/22 fail on all hollowpoint ammunition so far.

Ladies and Gentlemen:
    FYI current (April, 2010) Cheaper Than Dirt catalog lists CCI Blazer 40 grain (AMM-041) @ $16.69/500, and Federal 40 grain (AMM-081) @ $16.24/500.   Their price for Aguila .22 ($29.49/500) is pretty much the same as the CMP is asking, without the 6-12 month wait...
   'Course, back in the day I used to drive to Seneca Military Depot and pick up 30-50K of Winchester white box .22 for...wait for it...FREE for my H.S. team...year after year...unreal.
   CMP also listing Service grade M1 carbines (Winchester = $675, Standard Products = $575) for first time in several months...and has .30 carbine ammunition as well as the .30-06.
  Excelsior,
nyrasgt
(mad)

I haven't seen anyone mention this ammo, so here goes:

Russian "Junior" .22!
It was available a few years ago in cases of 6000 for @$100, so you might still see some on the firing line. Comes in a wooden crate. Bricks packed in cream-colored, plastic-coated paper with a green-ish label. 50 Rd boxes are light green/aqua colored with the silhouette of a chicken on the box! <--my favorite feature!

It's a steel case, with a "V" head stamp. Bullets very heavily lubricated. I believe, but am not certain, that it's a 36-grain bullet.


Cheap. Dirty. Very low velocity. It also had a tendency to stick in the chamber of my rifle if left in the sun.

In the sun, I had at least one extraction failure per magazine, about a 10% failure rate. Several required a screwdriver to pry out of the chamber. When I moved to the shade, I had two extraction failures total. About 2%. I believe that those can be accounted for by the steel case. The extractor cannot "bite" into it like it can a brass case. The steel case may be thinner and expand more in the chamber as well. Neither of extraction failures in the shade required more than re-closing the bolt hard and re-opening it hard to extract.

Why put up with this? Well, I have one of those 6000 round cases
AND:
It is uncannily accurate in my 77/22! It will easily group under 2 MOA. I also cannot recall having had a single failure to fire.

Although it has always functioned well in all the 10/22's I've tried it in; I didn't shot it all day, and it is extremely dirty ammo. So fouling could become an issue. Also, if it began to stick in the chamber of a 10/22 it would very likely require a cleaning rod to push out the spent casing from the muzzle end. There's just not enough room/leverage for a screwdriver blade in the ejection port. That said, my 77/22 has a Green Mountain barrel and it's chamber may be a little tighter than factory.

Apparently, this stuff is now collectible (?) so prices have risen, but if you see some cheap don't be afraid to give it a try!

.22's are notorious for being picky about their ammo.  I have targeted in excess of over 100 different .22 pistols, rifles, and revolvers over the last 30 years.  I have fired pretty much every domestic brand of ammo that has been available.  I came to understand that each gun is an individual. One gun may love a particular brand of ammo and the very next serial number of the same gun may hate it.  The reasons for this is that each gun is unique in individual tolerances, bearing surfaces, set-up, ecetera.  The trick is to match the ammo to the gun.  Each brand of ammo has a slightly different velocity, pressure curve shape, etc. This effects accuracy and cycling reliability for autoloaders.  The trick is to test several different brands of ammo in each gun on paper.  Accuracy can vary wildly. Chances are there are one or more brands that are a good combination of accuracy and reliable function.  Just because the current gun you are using doesn't care for a particular brand of ammo doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the ammo.  It just means your gun doesn't like it.  Save the offending ammo for your next gun or trade it off to a buddy whose gun loves it.  If you read all the posts prior to mine you will see one person praise a particular brand of ammo only to be followed by a later poster saying he would never buy that brand again.  You must match the ammo to the gun.  The best brand of ammo is the brand your individual gun likes.  This is true of all guns, but especially .22's.  Centerfire Handloaders search for this sweet spot all the time by manipulating the variables of cases, powders, bullets, primers, overall lengths, etc.  Unfortunately we can't handload .22's so you must try different brands looking for the perfect combo.  Hope this helps some .22 newbies.

.220swift has it right.  Every gun is different and has "likes/dislikes" of it's own.

I've talked with my Dad about this subject many times.  While he agrees that some ammo these days is more prone to misfires he says things were different when he was younger.

Back in those days (before/during WW2 for ammo with a rifle made earlier that that) he says it was all pretty much the same.  They hunted for meat to feed the family.  The .22 they had belonged to his Dad (a single shot Western Field bolt action) was used to take squirrels, rabbits, grouse, red-squirrels (not fox squirrels but a smaller than gray squirrels type animal that lives in those mountains - bigger than a chipmunk but smaller than a gray squirrel), groundhogs, possums and raccoons.  They shot them in the head so they didn't mess up the meat.  Headshots and the need to feed the family (they had chickens but they were mostly for eggs).

It was a couple mile walk to town to buy ammo so the variety was limited to whatever was available in the hardware store or company store at the time and it had to work.  According to Dad they bought and used it all and didn't really see a difference.

So, is it ammo that has changed?  Or the rifles?  Some time I'm goiing to break out my old M67 Winchester and take it to the range with Winchester, Federal and Remington ammo and see what happens.

Back then no ammo was wasted checking group size.
Get close, and one round in the head was a bullseye!

I always go down the ammo aisle at Wally World when shopping there. 

Today, Federal bulk pack 550 rounds was 18.97.  It has been pretty consistently 15.47 for about a year or two now; before that it was 13.17. 

I used to pick up one about every trip to the Wonderful World of Wally.  Now, it's about every three trips. 

TE

Odd as it may seem to many, or just a few the (IDEA) is its NOT a equipment race. A standard 10-22 LTR, with good standard ammo will shoot a Riflemans score if the user has made the effort to listen and apply the information that is given...... There is no magic trick geardo needed just a teachable attitude and the desire to shoot better.. FWIW Pappy

I noticed the increase at Wally World re:  the 550 Federal Bulk pack.
My 10/22 likes these the best and absolutely hates the Remington Golden "wax balls."
Fouls my rifle up in no time.

+1 on the Remington GB, and the Thunderbolts are no better.  The only good thing that can be said about Rem ammo is you get practice in dealing with misfeeds, stovepipes, and duds.

Anecdotally, has anyone else noticed when shooters are struggling with feed/eject/duds, especially day one, the ammo is remmington headstamp?

It's too bad the the Wally-World Federal bulk price is up, but it is still a bargin relative to other 22 out there (just swing by Gander)  Anyhow, I'm glad to see it stocked up; I was at Wallyworld today and they had no fewer than 15 boxes.  (I'm still wondering why I didn't buy it all.)

For those of you that are finding it be thankful.

I have not seen Federal Bulk Pack on a Wally World shelf for over a year.

Buy a little of what ever you find that your rifle likes when ever you find it. You may never know when you see it again.

Baring any Government "Stimulus" Federal Bulk Pack will be close to or over $20 a box in 2011 with the annual manufacturer price increase

Since you can't reload it, your only protection against future price increases and scarcity it to invest in some inventory to support your practice.

For father's day, another Rifleman and I went out to do a WallyWorld ammo test.  That is, what is the best of the cheap ammo.  So we tested ammo through a bolt .22 and a semi Savage .22 using 1" squares.  First we shot 40 rounds out, then followed with another 40 rounds into a square of each brand.  The theory being that the lube would be cleaned out using the 40 non-test rounds in between each test.  Here are the brands and how they stacked up:



   
   
   
   
   
   
   

Cheap Ammo		Bullet	Bullet	Bullet	Bullet	Power	Relative	Street	Country Of
Manufacturer	Description	Weight	Style	Jacket	Core	in fps	Velocity	Price	Origin	Notes
Federal	Bulk Federal Blue Box 500rds 710F	40	Round Nose	Copper	Lead		Med.	$6.40	USA	Fed fine, untested accuracy
Remington	Bulk High Velocity 550 Rnds	36	Hollow Point	Plated	Lead	1280	Med.	$4.17	USA	Worst perf, some duds
Federal	Bulk AutoMatch Target Grade, 325 rnds	40	Round Nose	Copper	Lead	1200	Med.	$4.45	USA	Better, not great
CCI/Speer	Blazer, 50 rnd boxes	40	Round Nose		Lead		Med.		USA	Better, not great
CCI	Mini-Mag	40	Round Nose	Copper	Lead	1235	Med.	$5.67	USA	Best of tested

The Savage holds the bolt back after the last round, which throws the last round to the side consistently.  The Marlin bolt gun's groups were consistently better.  The intention was to test 40gr ammo only, but the Remington bulk stuff is so common, that we tested that too. The Remington bulk is hollow point which can add to a feed problem if a magazine is starting to get gummed up.

How did you arrive at the prices? Are they per box (in which case I want to buy a CASE of the federal wherever you are!!) or per 50 rounds? 'Cause it's my experience that the CCI Minimags are usually pretty pricey and the Federal are, around here, about $18.47/550 round box, or about $1.67 for 50 rounds.

Also... any data on accuracy?

I noticed something this weekend when we were up in the "hills" shooting.

I've had great results with Remington Golden Bullets bought 2 or 3 years ago.  I bought some more 550 round boxes awhile back and that stuff is not the same .22 ammo.  The new stuff jams up in my old Ruger Mk1 bull barrel (that always shot everything) and in the .22 conversion kits in the AR15's as well as giving us quite a few dud rounds.

The older stuff I have has a "U" on the bottom of the case (I always assumed the upper case U stood for UMC, the old Union Metallic Cartridge name used by Remington many years ago.)  The newer stuff that isn't working out has "Rem" on the bottom of the case.

From now on, before I buy Remington ammo, I'll have to ask the clerk to let me open up the box and see what is stamped on the bottom of the cases.

Oh yeah, my almost 30 year old Remington Thunderbolts still feed, shoot and eject great and are still as accurate as ever.  However, after this weekend the supply has deteriorated somewhat.

Some years back - like 3 or 4, I think - I noticed that the Remington bulk stuff had a different shape to the bullet. What used to feed flawlessly in my Ruger Mark I, now jammed on EVERY shot. The ogive had changed - it was a different curve.

I switched to Federal, which still works just fine in most all of my autoloaders. (except for my Beretta 21a, but I think that's the gun and not the ammo).

To answer some questions:
The prices are all calculated on the basis of price per 100 rounds.  So the bulk packs are larger at 500, 525, or 550 rounds, I simply divided the cost of the bulk pack by the number of rounds and multiplied by 100.  I did find a mistake.  The Mini Mags were actually $6.47 per 100.

Due to the number of rounds fired, the group center was shot-out in most cases.  So the group pattern was evaluated and the number of fliers counted.  The group size of the Remmington bulk rounds was 5 inches, which is awful from a bench rest.  Remington Green Bulk produced the most duds.  There were no stovepipes.  The Remington rounds were marked on the bottom of the cases Rem, and not U.  I didn't put the ThunderBolt up because I didn't buy it at WalMart and I didn't have 80 rounds of it for the test after using it a previous AS event.  At that event, the ThunderBolt had a lot of duds, but I and my friend both shot Rifleman scores with it.  I wouldn't buy it again.

One of my loaners got used with Remington ammo this weekend. Yesterday I pulled apart the trigger group to show Luv2BFree what part of the bolt release to modify (since I've done it to all my LTRs) I've never SEEN it so filthy - I mean, the parts of the trigger group were actually GREASY.

My experience is that nothing is dirtier than .22 rimfire ammo.  I've always been a Remington guy due to problems long ago with Winchester ammo in a couple of rifles.  Recently my experience with Remington isn't much better though.

There's a lot of folks here shooting lots of .22 ammo these days.  Any opinions on what the dirtiest .22 ammo is or is it too subjective a question?

I wouldn't doubt that the Remington Golden Bullets are some of the dirtyest-shooting ones out there, because of that "gold dust" coating on the bullets... but my Rugers still love the stuff.  They can go over 1000 rounds without experiencing any problems from being too dirty. 

Like I said before, the Federal Bulk doesn't work at all in them.  They jam every 4-5 rounds with it.

Don't assume that because somebody else has problems with Remington, or Federal, or anything else, that you will have the same.  The only thing you can do is to try different types of ammo in your rifle and find one it likes, as has been stated many times.

Well, the cleanest ammo I've used is Eley but that is too expensive for Appleseed-quantity shooting.  The Remington bulk is, indeed, dirty stuff.

The Federal 550 round bulk box is reasonably clean and functions well in my 10/22s.  It shows up at my local Wal Marts about 20 boxes at a time and I buy several.  It is 50/50 on any given week whether they will have any so I buy it when I see it.

The sporting goods dept guys don't even act surprised when I ask "How many boxes do you have?"  followed by "I'll take all of it"

bought em cheap and stacked high

Eley Target (yellow box) at $6.00 per 50 is the best shooting to price point ammuniton that I have found.  I can put three rounds in the same hole. I attach a picture of the last target I shot, with the 13 rounds, three in each target except for the 250 "head shot" which has only one round in it. 

Has any one out there tryed the CCI. Pest control shot load? For 22.  I watched a vid.  On youtube and the guy had a problem on them cycaling and that past 5' the group was wayyyyyy to spread out so any experience will help Cu's I would love to use some this year for squirrel if they work that is

It's my experience that they spread out waaay too fast to be effective on squirrels.  Also, the shot (#12 I think) is too small to maintain its velocity at any distance, so not enough penetration.

So OK for snakes and mice at just a few feet, but not of much use beyond that.  I've seldom gotten close enough to a live squirrel for them to work.

Cool thank you

Rifles used - Heavy barrel, carbine length AR w/CMMG conversion kit and Ruger 10/22 Varmint/Target. Both rifles are scoped. Groups fired from sandbags.

Ranked from best to worst:

CCI Velocitor - will shoot into one ragged hole at 25m
CCI Blazer - will shoot into one ragged hole at 25m (slightly larger than Velocitors)
CCI Stinger
Winchester Bulk Pack (333 or 555)
Federal Bulk Pack
Remington (accuracy and reliability issues)
Also had some bricks of Federal and Remington plated and lead - 20+ years old. They shot really poorly.

Like any ammo, you should try several makes with your particular rifle(s) to see which is preferred. Shooting from a bench gives the best test of actual accuracy, then follow-up with field shooting positions to confirm.