Project Appleseed

I suppose much of this could be preempted by announcing the suggestion to the entire group as they are ready to try it the first time.

Something like, "Even those equipped with QD swivels will benefit from the repetitions of properly getting into and out of the loop sling while attached to a rifle this weekend. With a bit of practice, you will be doing it just as rapidly while less prone to errors."

Of course it'll be taught..Along with "Improvise, adapt, and overcome"....O.L.

So, it is now against Appleseed policy for an instructor to recommend using a QD swivel, for any reason?

I guess so or we can follow the SB manual and as the SB, make your own decisions. Especially in our neck of the woods, folks balk at using slings at all. I'm happy if we can get them to use a hasty and they really balk at the loop. If I can get them to use it by making it take less time and hassle, they discover how good it really is and will want to use it, even if it is a PIA. That's the goal isn't it? Get them to use it?.......O.L.

"You will figure out better ways to do things, to make the task easier - or more effective.
When you do, you have an obligation to let your fellow SBs know about it, so they can try it."

O.L & Roland-

Nobody is saying that you simply cannot teach people how to use the QD feature.  It is *strongly* discouraged, however, for the many reasons already given.

As with most things, it falls to SB discretion. 

O.L.-  If you're having trouble convincing your students to use the sling, it isn't a fault of what or how we teach.  They simply neglected to bring the most important thing: a teachable attitude. 

Oh I hear you..We have a population that will decend on a Mayor armed at a city council meeting. Many have been shooting since they could walk. Different demographics than much of the country. What have we learned about centralized "governments" 3000 miles away? I'll do what I've got to do to get them to use a sling. Most come around quickly once they see the results.......O.L.

First off, you really can't do much about a shooter that just doesn't listen.

Best way to handle that is for a youngster (that does listen) to flat leave them in the dust, so to say.

It's not about whether you show them the trick about the QD swivel or not. I don't care if you do or don't.

It's about when you teach them.

Yup, some of our folks out there are teaching them to use the QD swivels on Saturday morning, and the say "it saves time". Well, those shooters put the sling on once (under supervision) on Saturday, and once again (under supervision, because they can't remember how to do it) on Sunday. Maybe it's twice each day for some.

Well, that flat isn't enough for the shooter to retain what they've been taught, is it?

Let's just make sure they learn how to put the sling on right, and will remember how it goes (as in remember how next week and next month). If you've done that, you're good to go.

And, by the way, I usually teach them the QD trick somewhere around noon on Sunday. Experience has taught me that most of them can figure out how a sling works by then. The ones that can't, won't get it any time soon, no matter what you do.

Quote from: ItsanSKS on April 07, 2012, 03:14:17 PM
ATM-

It's one thing for the student to use the QD feature of their swivels on their own, and another for their instructor to point it out and recommend it.  It is the latter that is the problem, and as you note, the only part we can control. 

Now, a student who uses the QD swivel *and* starts telling others to do the same is a problem, and needs to be politely, but firmly, corrected.

This is what happened at my first shoot. An orange hat mentioned to me that I could use QDs instead of slinging and unslinging for each round. I feel bad now because I told my dad to do it that way when I brought him to his first shoot (before I started instructing). I'll have to unlearn him in a couple weeks when he attends the Rainbow shoot. 

Quote from: aragornelessar86 on April 09, 2012, 03:59:29 PM

Quote from: ItsanSKS on April 07, 2012, 03:14:17 PM
ATM-

It's one thing for the student to use the QD feature of their swivels on their own, and another for their instructor to point it out and recommend it.  It is the latter that is the problem, and as you note, the only part we can control. 

Now, a student who uses the QD swivel *and* starts telling others to do the same is a problem, and needs to be politely, but firmly, corrected.

This is what happened at my first shoot. An orange hat mentioned to me that I could use QDs instead of slinging and unslinging for each round. I feel bad now because I told my dad to do it that way when I brought him to his first shoot (before I started instructing). I'll have to unlearn him in a couple weeks when he attends the Rainbow shoot. 

Actually, he won't have to unlearn it, just you'll have to get him good enough with a sling that he remembers it. If he can properly get into a sling without being reminded how to do it, he's good enough.

A few years back we heard of a SB who did not teach sling use . It was surmised he forgot or never learned the sling concept .Fortunately this was corrected eventually .
I have on occasion witnessed RHs fumbling with teaching loop sling ,they learned the quick detach trick.
In one instance I took over by saying --'Oh I have an easier way"
We learned the loop sling in USMC and I could not recall how the put it on until AS .

It will be difficult to correct an instructor corp that does not know sling use or how to teach it .

The rule I use is if it's unlikely the person will ever score RM or unlikely to become IIT , the QT is fine . No point seeing someone frustrated over a sling .