Project Appleseed

Hay guys as I look though this Ammo section and while doing research else wear on line I have heard quite a few people talking about failures to fire with their 22 rifles. I have a savage arms Mark II and have put over 2,000 rounds of various ammunitions though it looking for that one that I liked best and have yet to have a cartage that failed. So with all that said I was wondering what rifles do you guys have and what ammo does your weapon seem to not like the most, or give you the most failures to fire with? 

Thank you,

~PlatzOut~

Most of these experiences on the line have been due to dirty Rifles.
The most common of these errors is that the shooter attempts to zero at there home range sometime prior to the event. After 100 or so rounds its close enough.
Straight in the rifle case so as not to throw off the accuracy, failing to clean it.
When it comes out on the line it does not show problems right away usually another 100 or so rounds into the event. Now Appleseed caused my rifle to malfunction, after I had it all zeroed in.
Slightly open battery,failure to extract, failure to chamber next round.
Too light of primer strikes you name it.
The ammo is often blamed:however it is usually the rifle that does not not like that particular brand,this does not mean it is not OK for another rifle.
Seldom is it truly a bad batch of Ammo.

Informally and unscientifically, I have heard more gripes about FTF with Remington Golden Bullet .22's than anything else.    

I suspect that most cases of FTF (with any ammo) come from light firing pin strikes due to gummed-up actions.   A really dirty blowback semi-auto might not go COMPLETELY into battery (bolt fully forward), or the firing pin itself can get so gummed up that the hammer blow is cushioned by the accumulated lube and powder fouling gunk.   

I have had very few FTF's myself, mostly from REALLY ANCIENT ammo, that I probably shouldn't have even been using, and most of those went off when replaced with a different orientation in the chamber and tried again. 

Rumor has it that low-end .22 rounds (or some manufacturing lots thereof) might have occasional gaps in the priming compound distribution, so that there might be one area of the rim that has none.  So I've heard speculated, but no dependable confirmation.   I don't know how one would prove or disprove that. 

All that said, .22 rimfires, even more than other rifles, do seem to be very individualistic about how ACCURATELY they will shoot, or how reliably they will feed, different brands and loads.  Example:  I have an old Anschutz (model 64 action) boltgun that loves Winchester 40-gr. Power Point hollow points, shooting them as well as anything I've ever tried and functioning fine, and I have a Marlin 39A that just doesn't like to feed those blunt bullets.  So go figgur.) 

So try several loads in each rifle, if peak accuracy is important to you.  Your mileage WILL vary!          


Edited to respond to the following replies:  Those instances where I re-chambered apparent "dud" rounds were NOT on an Appleseed line!

There are ammo related FTFs with some of the bulk ammo due to priming (solid firing pin strike with no ignition).  I've seen it occur repeatedly in some of the lots of Federal bulk, and at least once in a Remington bulk pack.  Sometimes it appears that that the priming compound is not completey distributed into the rim and rotating the dud cartridge 90 or 180 degrees from the previous strike will get it to fire.  However, I've also found at least two or three rounds that would not fire with solid firing pin strikes all the way around the rim - indicating that the cartridge was never primed at all.

As an instructor on the line.
I  will not let a student re-insert a .22 round with a primer strike of any kind.
You have diagnosed a problem with the ammo, when in doubt throw it out!
No reason to allow a possible safety hazard, back on the line, you are just asking for trouble.

This might be a good thread in which to remind everyone to be very careful in making sure any and all dud rounds are collected and disposed of properly. Many of our shooters wear sneakers and boots with very aggressive treads which can trap an unfired round only to have it go off the next time they step onto a hard surface. This should be covered in the safety briefing each morning before shooting begins. It is a good idea to have an empty coffee can or similar container for shooters to place any unfired rounds which they pick up after the stage of fire is complete. It might also be a good idea to advise them to check the soles of their feet (shoes) before leaving the range.
Duds are easily overlooked by shooters, but they should not be overlooked by us.

We've got to make sure the policies and actions we take are reasonable instead of paranoid. The range we use is covered by thousands of dud and otherwise unfired rounds mixed with gravel and or laying on asphalt. We drive over this all the time. There has never been a round go off under someones tires or shoes. Throw them down range and prep 10!....O.L.

To be clear - I did not ever rechamber and try to refire any duds on an Appleseed firing line or any other public range.  The experiences I shared were all done in my own shop/range personally while sighting or practicing into a trap or berm.  I second Oldadcock's statements, at the local gun club range I have walked-on, driven-on and picked up and discarded in the trash literally dozens of dud and unfired .22 long rifles that seem to always litter the firing line and gravel just in front of the shooting benches and have never seen or heard of a detonation.  Caution is always prudent, but let's not be hysterical.

I usually pick up any dud/unfired .22s. 99% of the time, they work fine the second time. Obviously, don't do this if the round looks wrong, I.E., tip bent, corroded, etc.

Reusing duds is false economy. If you're doing to see if it will fire (to satisfy your curiosity), OK. But, not a recommended practice.

I'll have to agree that cleaning the shoes/boots is a little overboard. You don't want to know how many live primers and 22 rounds I've stepped on, on cement. They don't ignite, as a rule. (I've yet to have one ignite)

"Cheap" ammo is made with looser quality control than the premium stuff. That said, the good stuff sometimes fails to fire (FTF) as well.

Cleaning is a general area here. The cleanliness of the bore will not affect FTF's. The cleanliness of the chamber can, but usually doesn't. The cleanliness of the action, especially on a semi-auto certainly can affect this.

Now, this doesn't mean I don't believe in cleaning 22's. Some competition shooters go long periods without cleaning their 22's. Others clean religiously.

I can tell you 100 rounds doesn't dirty one up enough to cause FTF issues unless the rifle is a flawed design. Case in point, I've had 10/22's that went 5000 rounds plus between cleanings, and never had a fail to fire issue caused by cleaning. Usual ammo was Federal bulk pack (525).

I can tell you that cleaning's effect on the zero generally goes away after the first round.

Quote from: Nickle on April 06, 2012, 06:53:53 PM
....

I can tell you that cleaning's effect on the zero generally goes away after the first round.

I mostly shoot Wolf Match Target, which is a lubed round.  In both 10/22 and 77/22, it takes about 5 rounds to settle down, starting from a newly cleaned bore.  I've always assumed that's how long it takes for a stable layer of the lube to form in the throat and the groves of the rifling.  Good ammo at a decent price, so I don't mind a few more shots for warm-up.

I met a man at an AIBC recently who happens to be named Fred. He gave me a new perspective about FTF's. Instant random Ball & Dummy opportunity. He made the comment that he would actually pay extra for ammo bad enough to have a 10% fail to fire ratio.

Humorous to be sure but you really can't argue the logic.

ST

I would say that the Remington golden runs at least 1% FTF  in my experience.  It functions so-so in the 10/22 but my Mosberg bolt ate it fine, its firing pin crushes the rim.  But ther were even a few in it that would not go off in it.

I have not yet found a round that has not fired in my rifle, I have only found that some dont fire accuratly, for example the winchester M22 is a horrable round $50 for 1,000 rounds you can keep it I make quarter size groups at best with it, when I can take eley target (yellow box) or cci target pistol and put 10 rounds in a hole half the size of a dime. 

SSG Platz, you'll find that some rifles seem to not like certain ammo. Sometimes it's all the rifles of a certain model, sometimes it's just individual rifles.

I've got a Remington 513-T that hated military issue white box (don't remember the brand), yet grouped well with decent commercial high velocity ammo. That runs against other's experience.

For all to know, you have to try different ammo to find which one your rifle likes best. SSG Platz has obviously done that, as have others. Smart way to go. 

Now, for use at an Appleseed, all you need is 4 MOA ammo.

Get the good stuff once your skills improve (after you can shoot Rifleman scores consistently, or at least close to it).

Yeah, my 10-22 is really picky. With Blazer and Rem gold box, it's more like 60% FTF.

But it runs Federal Champion blue box really well.

I've had similarly bad experiences with the Golden Bullet stuff.  My Marlin 795 hates it, but my buddy's Savage 64F loves it.

I had a box of Winchester recently that provided about a 25% FTFire rate in mine and another friend's 795.  Lots of failure to extract.  It looked like the rim was a bit thicker on the Winchester than the Federal Champion or Minimags that my 795 usually eats.  It was this stuff:  http://www.walmart.com/ip/Winchester-22LR-Hollow-Point-Rounds-333pk/16783169

Wow with 25-60% failures, I would begin to think that there was an issue with my rifle, granted shooting at targets is not life or death but but coming from a background that I do a 25% failure rate is unacceptable. Not that I ever expect to defend my life with a .22 but..........

Older .22s or .22s that have been dry fired a lot (other than Rugers - per the manual) may have damage to the firing pin.  I've been buying 'as is' rifles and fixing them up.  Lack of cleaning and deformed firing pins are the most common issues.

On mine, it probably has something to do with the fact that the firing pin spring is slightly bent. It will be replaced soon.

Being the curious sort I pull the bullets on FTF RF ammo and examine the distribution of the priming compound. Some of the examined ammo has had less than 50% coverage.

I've had different lots of Winchester Wildcat and Remington Thunderbolt ammo that had 25%+ FTF.  Shoot enough and you will come across bad lots of ammo.

I've found people that should know better that are paranoid about ammunition. Ammunition outside of a firearm is a low risk/low hazard item. Even in a fire ammunition poses little risk of injury.

Ammunition does not "detonate." Explosives detonate. Smokeless powder does not detonate.

Be mindful of the terms we use when instructing others. They have specific meanings and are rarely interchangeable.

I buy new Ruger 10-22s for building LTRs. Everyone that I have bought, or worked on, has had the firing pin proteusion too short.

The firing pin protrusion should be 0.025" minimum, 0.035" is even better. I make this correction and rarely have problems with FTF.

So I guess it's safe to say its an equipment failure, I have heard good things about the M&P 15-22's has anyone who owns one of those on here had any FTF issues?  I've fired almost 3,000 rounds though my savage with no FTF's I took a friend out with me to the range today and his 10-22 FTF 3 rounds and when I looked at them they it had barely dimpled the rim. And his marline had many failures to eject.

Well, I'll state the obvious, even though I already know you know it. (Mostly for others that don't know this.)

Semi-auto rifles need to be cleaner than bolt actions, in order to function properly.

10/22's will tend to foul the breech, and the build up can keep the bolt from fully closing, or slow the firing pin speed. These 2 items can cause that very same problem. Takes a fair amount of shooting between cleanings, but I've seen it myself.

The same issue, plus also a dirty chamber can cause the ejection problems.

Cleaning the bore won't fix this. Need to clean the chamber and bolt (inside and out) to fix some of this.

I completely agree with you Nickle about the cleaning of the rifles, I can see where it would be a big problem in the civilian world where it is not "beaten" into you to maintain your weapon system, because as I'm sure you can attest to, you still see it now and again in the support corps. But this quote disturbs me. I am not as failure with the 10-22 as I do not own one.

Quote from: douglas34474 on April 09, 2012, 08:13:35 PM
I buy new Ruger 10-22s for building LTRs. Everyone that I have bought, or worked on, has had the firing pin protrusion too short.

The firing pin protrusion should be 0.025" minimum, 0.035" is even better. I make this correction and rarely have problems with FTF.

It seems to me that ruger has poor quality control.

My conclusion to this conversation is this;  There are a couple of factors that lead to failure to fire of of the .22 Lr round.
1. Poor quality control which leads to firing pins that do not strike the round properly or with enough force.

2. Neglect of proper firearms maintenance, many people will fire several hundred rounds through their rifle and then either put it back in the case and then take it back out in a month and do it again. And then there are yet others that will fire rounds though their weapons then run a bore snake though it and call it clean. Which is also the wrong answer. Now the purpose of this thread is not to tell people to clean their weapons more or to clean them more thoroughly. If you want information on that this is not the thread, but there are many people who can help you with that on here. 

3. Quality control at the ammunition manufactures where not all of the rim is coated completely so unless it has a firm strike over a sizeable area of the coated surface to insure proper ignition.
So, in closing the combination of poor quality control from the factory on both the firearms and ammunition manufactures which by themselves is not a huge deal, but when you introduce neglect or improper cleaning it opens the door for FTF's. But don't distress folks all these factors can be Mitigated by having a gunsmith check the headspace of your rifle, and to preform proper weapons maintenance. If all this is done the effects of poor quality control from the bulk ammunition will be negligible.

SSG. P,
   Have been using S&W Instructor Purchase Program M&P15-22 as loaner ($360 vs. msrp $580-ish) for 3-4 PA wkends w. no FTF...only issue I ran into after 1st Appleseed was that shooter used regular PA chamber flag, which pushed debris into chamber and interfered w.chambering rounds until cleaned...using weed-whacker string chamber flags and problem goes away...
   IPP is nice perq of attaining the red hat...
Excelsior,
madMark

Thanks for the info on the M&P I believe that will be my next purchase, and that's a nice discount as well, so I guess I will be waiting until I get that red hat to get one.