Project Appleseed

I've done a couple of AS events now and really enjoyed them.  So far, I've used a Mini-14.  In the prone position under time pressure, it was difficult for me to get the hole in the front of the magazine to line up with that little retention nib when inserting the second magazine...and that was after hunting for the magazine slot in the first place.  Having just completed Front Sight's 4-day Defensive Handgun course, I am even more aware of how quickly you lose fine motor skills under stress.

While I recognize that routine practice would help me overcome those obstacles with the Mini-14, I could simply eliminate both of them by switching to an AR-15 style rifle.  I have had some reservations about the reliability of the AR-15 platform due to stories from the early years when there were problems getting the bolt to go into battery.  I have also read on this board about some of the problems other members have had with their slings pulling the (hot) barrel out of alignment.

With these things in mind and without trying to ignite any lengthy debate, could some of you recommend a nice entry level AR-15 style rifle (in 5.56mm) with a heavy barrel?  It would also be nice if you could point out specific manufacturers/models to stay away from.  Finally, I'd love to hear comments about the reliability of the modern AR-15s.

I suppose I should add that I'm looking for a rifle to use mainly in "practical rifle" training, but which I could also sling up and use to shoot a Rifleman score.  I'd like the base price of the rifle to be less than $1,000.00 U.S.  I've already got optics, so they won't have to figure into that price.

Best regards,

Hoo boy. Here we go again.

OK. First off, a heavy barrel won't really help much with sling tension. Second, you have to be basically slung up so tight your fingertips are turning blue to move a government-profile barrel enough distance to make a big difference.

If you are still concerned about POI shift with a sling, what you want is a free-float tube.

Something like this: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/122407/hogue-free-float-tube-handguard-ar-15-knurled-aluminum-black?cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Gunsmithing+-+AR-15+Furniture+and+Accessories-_-PriceCompListing-_-122407

Or This: http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=267

The latter one is nice because you can mount rails wherever you like. If you do get a replacement handguard, make sure it's not a quad rail, as those will eat your hands up for sure.

Companies to stay away from: DPMS (stands for Didn't Pass Mil Spec, is the joke), Bushmaster, Del-ton.

Good companies: Colt, Rock River Arms (some debate on this one), Palmetto State Armory, Bravo Company Manufacturing, Armalite, Daniel Defence, Sabre Defence (went out of business but their products can still be found.

My Personal recommendation: Buy a complete upper receiver, and build a lower from a parts kit. Building a lower can be accomplished in a couple of hours (or probably faster, if you're not me), no tools except a gunsmith's hammer and pin punches are needed.

You can save $150-200 by doing this.

My specific recommendation: http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/rifle-kits/16-4150-chrome-lined-mid-length-rifle-kit.html built on whatever lower you can get. As long as the stripped lower is Mil-Spec, it doesn't matter. That company has theirs on sale for 49.95 occaisanlly.

All you need to add to that once it's built is a rear sight and mags/ammo, and you're ready to rock.

Reliability: not an issue anymore. SWAT magazine ran a Bravo Company AR through 31,000 rounds without cleaning it, with something like five malfunctions. If you shoot that much, you are either in deep trouble or have too much money for practice ammo.

Hopefully, you picked up some useful things from my rambling. If I can help anymore, please let me know.

Roland

One last thing. We don't discuss politics on here, but if you are going to buy, buy soon. If nothing else, I have heard from people in the industry that prices are going up, and aren't likely to stop for a while.

Have you had the chance to handle/shoot AR's?
You can still fumble a Mag Change/reload on an AR (I do anyway).

I have a 20" HBAR.
I didn't choose an HBAR, just happened to get the Rifle in a trade.
Not insanely heavy but not as nimble as the 16" ultralight weights that I have seen.

My Upper is an Olympic Arms.
Their lower end line had a spotty rep but their better Barrels are supposed to be good.  Mine is more accurate than I am.

I got a Chip McCormick drop-in Trigger that is Excellent.
I got a Miculek Compensator that for me keeps the muzzle very flat in recoil.

As for bending the barrel with the sling....
I dunno.
I would think that a bad fit between the Upper and Lower would be a more likely issue.

For AS shooting I would recommend that you get PMags with the "Level" window so you can see how many rounds are loaded in the mag.
Or get one Clear mag

Well I wasn't going to comment but to counter one opinion, I will! Got 4 DPMS's, all light barrel, 2- 16", 1-20" and the other is an LR-10. They are all sub-moa rifles with my hand loads and never had a feed issue that wasn't magazine related and the problem children wasn't DPMS mags. We mostly run the 10 round DPMS polymer mags because the 30 rounders get in the way. The only after market toys of function, I put JP Enterprize triggers in all 4 after shooting one of them for a year in the 20". Just couldn't find a better trigger for the $$$. Yep, there are ones out there that are higher $$$ but I haven't seen any that are more functional......O.L.

Hi Roland,

Thank you for your reply. That is exactly the kind of matter-of-fact info and layout I was hoping for.  (I'm really not interested in igniting any kind of debate here.)  Please note that the upper you recommended at Palmetto State Armory is out-of-stock.

Building a rifle is a little more than I bargained for, but doable and I could find other ways to use the cash saved.  However, my over-analytical tendencies combined with the myriad kit options would probably hinder my actual purchase.


Justsomedude,

Thanks for adding your experience here.  I definitely enjoy firearms, but must say that I prefer to perform as few modifications to them as possible.  Like everyone, my "spare" time is spread thin, so I'd like to have a rifle I can just pull out of the box and go.  Maybe when I retire I'll have time to tweak its performance, but right now I'm doing good to get to the range on a routine basis. 


Anyone else care to offer suggestions?

As far as off-the shelf rifles, I prefer Armalite. 

Big fan of their HBAR 20" rifle, but if you are looking for a 16" they make those too..

If you don't mind building your own rifle, look into Model 1 Sales.  They offer complete kits, that allow you to fully customize your entire build.  Just add stripped lower receiver, and you've got *everything* aside from ammo and extra mags. 

I'd personally go with this setup:
http://www.model1sales.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=79

I can't emphasize here enough how happy I am with my colt target match AR. I bought this rifle in 1999 and have never had a problem with it. Being a target match it is a little heavy but it's dead on at 500 yds. I just recently changed the trigger to a Geissele. Not something you have to do but boy is it sweet. The prices have come down since 1999. I'm considering another just like it. Colt is barrelled in 5.56. That's my .02 cents . Regards, Two Wolves

Regarding brands, you'll get as many opinions as days in the year. Stick with any of named brands above and you'll do fine. I recommend sticking with a 20" barrel in a Service Rifle Competition set up. If you're going to spend extra money on any item, spend it on the barrel and trigger.. Don't be intimidated by the consideration of "building" a lower.. It's so simple even a caveman can do it, with minimal investment in the proper tools... My 02.
BeSwift

I've got way more than a little experience with AR's, they're great rifles.

I'll mention that most of my experience has been with Colt rifles, but other brands are good. Currently I own one I built on Anvil Arms receivers, my girlfriend has one built on a Bushmaster, both 16" barrel M4 clones. I also have a Dane Armory lower that's getting built into a 20" heavy barrel M16A4 clone.

Building one is fairly easy, it's more that you "assemble" one, not build it. No complicated tools required.

I'd go for the 1-9" twist barrel, ammo is pretty universal then.

Two words:  Rock River

Quote from: ItsanSKS on March 26, 2012, 07:45:52 PM


If you don't mind building your own rifle, look into Model 1 Sales.

I have heard some really, really, low opinions on Model 1.  I've also heard some that say they are all right. So, the advice I can offer  is, do your research.

Both Model 1 and DPMS seem to gather the same kind of opinions. People generally seem to agree they are accurate, and fine for average range use, but might choke under pressure.

AlaSprout, you said you wanted to use this rifle for practical training. I might suggest talking to these trainers.

When I did this kind of research, I wanted one rifle that would do it all. Of course, that's impossible. But, I think I came reasonably close. I built a PSA 16'' Midlength 1:7'' twist with Magpul MOE furniture. I added a Magpul BAD, a GG&G ranging BUIS, and an ARES Armor sling. In my opinion, this rifle setup can handle everything from CQB to 400 yards fine.

Talk to as many people as you can. Everybody has an opinion. AR15.com and zombiesquad.org are both other fantastic resources, there are way more people on those sites that know everything there is to know about the AR platform.

Roland

Quote from: Roland on March 26, 2012, 11:35:25 PM
AlaSprout, you said you wanted to use this rifle for practical training. I might suggest talking to these trainers.

I don't know why I didn't think of that!  I'll try to make contact with the trainers at Front Sight.  I have a lifetime membership there and I intend to wear them out! 

Quote from: Roland on March 26, 2012, 11:35:25 PM
...I built a PSA 16'' Midlength 1:7'' twist with Magpul MOE furniture. I added a Magpul BAD, a GG&G ranging BUIS, and an ARES Armor sling.

I'm sorry...I only speak English could you translate?

Get on your local gun forum (We have a good one here on our concealed carry site. Swapgiant.com is good too. And you can't go wrong with armslist.com) and find one that's "used but still in good shape" for about $750. Then buy a couple mags and $200 worth of ammo.

Take it out to the range and shoot the crap out if.

ARs are Barbie rifles. Somewhere along the way you'll figure out what you like and what you want on your "practical rifle"and you can customize it exactly how you want.

We could debate it all day but you will like something someone else doesn't. They will like something you don't. And that's the beauty of it.

ARs are like women. Each one is different and each one is finicky but she's very special and once you learn what she likes and how to treat her, she'll love you forever. Treat her like a lady!

(ooooh ooooh.... treat her like a laaaady!)

I have a Smith and Wesson M&P-15 16" barrel (M4gery).  My only issue with it is the forearm is so short that it is difficult to sling up.  I also reccomend going with a 20" barrel and a longer forearm for it.  My next AR will likely be custom with a heavy 24inch stainless barrel.  I can help a bit with the jargon: BUIS=Back Up Iron Sights.  Welcome to what is called black rifle disease.  There is treatment, (buying more) but no cure

My first AR was a Rock River Predator Pursuit with 20" SS barrel.     Medium-heavy barrel, free floated tube fore-end.  QD sling stud on the forearm but not 1913 rails all over it.  Wylde chamber so it'll shoot milsurp ammo.  DI action rather than a piston system.  Rails for iron sights of your choice.  I added a riser block and conventional scope, and low-end folding BUIS.  It's more of a varmint rifle than battle carbine.  Slightly over a grand when I got mine, prices do vary with time and place.

I still like it, a lot!     But opinions are like ... noses (everybody has one).  And differences of opinion are what make horse races.  But you could do a lot worse, for Appleseeds or hunting or serious social purposes, if (God forbid!) it ever comes to that.

Quote from: AlaSprout on March 27, 2012, 12:09:47 AM

Quote from: Roland on March 26, 2012, 11:35:25 PM
...I built a PSA 16'' Midlength 1:7'' twist with Magpul MOE furniture. I added a Magpul BAD, a GG&G ranging BUIS, and an ARES Armor sling.

I'm sorry...I only speak English could you translate?

First off, quite frankly, the guys at Front Sight have forgotten more about AR's then I will ever know.

OK: 16'' barrel. Minmum Legal length without paying for a tax stamp. Generally agreed to be a good compromise between maneuverability and accuracy. Midlength refers to a 9''' gas tube instead of a 7'' gas tube, like the military M4 carbine has. That increases reliability and accuracy. 1:7'' is the rate of rifling. This is optomized for the 62 grain bullets, but will shoot everything from 52 to 77 grains. Also generally agreed to be a good compromise and allow you to shoot pretty much anything with decent accuracy. Magpul MOE furniture is a stock, pistol grip, and handguard made by Magpul. PSA had a deal on it, so I figured I could sell it later if I didn't like it. And the Magpul BAD allows you to release the bolt in prone without taking your hand off the rifle.

Roland

AlaSprout,

Some AR Mods are performance 'tweaks' and are difficult, time consuming, expensive, require tools....

Others are quick drop in changes that can be major improvements.
One in particular that was mentioned above is the Magpul BAD Lever.
I think they are around $30
Allows you to drop the bolt with your right hand without releasing your grip or losing your Cheekweld.

It would be very useful for shooting an AR with a Sling (AS style).
I'm adding one soon...would have been very handy during my AS last weekend.

I have a BAD Lever (so much for not drinking the Magpul kool-aid.... although I'll NEVER! buy a PMAG!) on mine and it is super helpful for AQTs. Just be sure you know how to "do it right" before relying on the BAD Lever.

Also, a big +1 for the ASAP plate and the RSA buckle. Makes sling mount/dismounts easy. I can switch from tactical operator to AS purist in no time flat.

With the comments regarding if a 20" or 16" barrel is better, it depends on what you're using this AR for, what sight system you'll be using, and what your body type/'dimensions' are.

If you plan on doing some door-kicking classes/any kind of CQB stuff with this rifle as well, get a 16" barrel.  If you're mounting a scope on your AR, then 4" more is not going to cause a noticeable jump in accuracy.  (For 4MOA shooting, velocity isn't a huge issue.)  However, when shooting with iron sights on an AR, you'll want a longer sight-radius to make shooting accurately easier, making the 20" a better choice.  But, if the 20" upper doesn't feel right, and if you won't be able to shoot it well, then don't get it.  The midlength is a great 'comprimise' for this problem, but IMHO, it's the best of both worlds and not really a comprimise. 
Regardless of barrel length, I would encourage getting a free-float hand-guard, as I've seen too many POI shifts without these (particularly when slung up tight).

Oh, for your first AR, make sure that it can shoot 5.56 (military surplus) and not just .223 Remington.  Remember, 5.56's will shoot .223, but .223's will NOT shoot 5.56 (unless you want a blown up barrel).

If building a lower (which is not hard), then go with quality parts; cheaper quality parts from lower grade manufacturerers are more likely to brake and possible make your rifle double fire (or maybe even go full auto).

Accessories?  A B.A.D. Lever from Magpul is a wonderful little thing.  Ebay has them for about $20 or $25.
MAGPUL furniture (pistol grip, stock, forends, etc.) is great, but it's all about personal preference. 
I have a Bushmaster Custom Shop AR mid-length gas-system, medium to heavy weight 1-in-7 twist 16" barrel with a free-float Yankee Hill Machine free-float hand-guard, YHM iron-sights.  It has a MAGPUL pistol grip, stock, B.A.D. Lever, and ASAP butt-plate (plus a few other non-AS endorsed additions ) 

See what you can handle and play around with a little bit (and shoot, if possible) before you buy.  Once you do buy, keep in mind that you can change and accessorize the AR more than any other centerfire rifle.

Welcome to ever-growing AR ownership club.

Slim,

What do you have against PMAG?
I got them because they were recommended and inexpensive and easy to find.
They're WAY better than the beat up GI mags that I got (free) with my Rifle

John

Quote from: Justsomedude on March 28, 2012, 05:18:38 PMSlim,

What do you have against PMAG?

What I have against them is every keyboard commando out there swears you need them and they're 3x the cost of USGI mags.

Quote from: Justsomedude on March 28, 2012, 05:18:38 PMI got them because they were recommended

By the guys on arfcom?

Quote from: Justsomedude on March 28, 2012, 05:18:38 PMand inexpensive and easy to find.

I wish I had your budget!

Quote from: Justsomedude on March 28, 2012, 05:18:38 PMThey're WAY better than the beat up GI mags that I got (free) with my Rifle

Please define "WAY better" for me.

Get a basic rifle.  Learn it for a year.  Buy nothing more than the bare necessities.

Then after your one year anniversary, go and begin to spend money on every little doodad that pleases your heart and expands the economy.

Just understand that 99.99% of them are completely unnecessary.

Buy a good shoe and learn to run before buying 100 shoes of every color to fill your closets with.

Why?  Because it is about you, a little bit about the rifle, and nothing at all to do with distracting little doodads.

Larue is great stuff.  It is also iKea for black rifle people.

Stick with the part that matters -> You.

Ah.
So nothing against them really other than price.

Mine were less than $15 each with a discount special online.
I was thrilled that 'the good ones' were that cheap.

My GI Mags are beat up and have sharp edges that cut my hands up when reloading.  I wrapped them in Gaffer tape
They also didn't seat consistently.

Quote from: slim on March 28, 2012, 05:26:29 PM

Quote from: Justsomedude on March 28, 2012, 05:18:38 PMSlim,

What do you have against PMAG?

What I have against them is every keyboard commando out there swears you need them and they're 3x the cost of USGI mags.

Quote from: Justsomedude on March 28, 2012, 05:18:38 PMI got them because they were recommended

By the guys on arfcom?

Quote from: Justsomedude on March 28, 2012, 05:18:38 PMand inexpensive and easy to find.

I wish I had your budget!

Quote from: Justsomedude on March 28, 2012, 05:18:38 PMThey're WAY better than the beat up GI mags that I got (free) with my Rifle

Please define "WAY better" for me.

I like the magpul moa front handgrip.  It feels better than the A2 style.

I got a bunch of GI mags from a guy for $4.50 with free shipping. Just saying.

for inexpensive GI milsurp mags, PMAGS, etc.,

try ar15.com     -->>  ar15 mags forum

I see used GI 30-rdrs dumped for $5-8, new milsurp 30-rdrs for $9-10

right now, there is a guy looking to offload 18 C-Products 20-rounders for $135 shipped.  that's $7.50 each, not as good as CDNN  on promo ($5.99), but mags have gone up since the first of the year.

I have several different makes but why not go with Armalite the originator of the AR (Armalite Rifle).  They always rank right up there in the polls.  Now that I've been into AR's a bit I'll build using a good/great barrel and good/great trigger depending what I want to spend - everything else if to MilSpec. is personal preference.

There are several reasons why I like PMAGS over GI.  They are really easy to find (Midway, Brownells, CheaperThanDirt, ANY gun store, etc.).  The 30 rounders usually cost about $14, so maybe a buck or two more than GI mags, but they are a TON easier to clean, included dust-cover takes stress off feed-lips which keeps them from braking/bending, a lot easier to load with ammo, they always seat properly in all the rifles I've shot them in, they're tougher than nails (run 'em over with cars and trucks, and they don't bust), and they don't rust. 

Just couple reasons why I buy PMAGS, but that's just my .02
Slim and I have had endless arguments on these points and have pretty much agreed to disagree.

There's no one right mag or accessory for AR's...that's why there are so many different types...

Oh, one more thing: Buy a LULA loader if you don't have one. Yes, that means you. Your fingers thank you.

My wife and I each have a Lula loader for our handguns.  It's a wonderful thing, indeed!  Thanks to all who have contributed here.

I realized that my original post could ignite some debate.  That's why I specifically tried to limit my request to , "could some of you recommend a nice entry level AR-15 style rifle (in 5.56mm) with a heavy barrel".  With all of the input, I am starting to get an idea of what to put together for my first AR.  However, I really wonder if there isn't some basic package that could be recommended (at least by Appleseed shoot bosses) for a first AR.

Case in point:  If asked for an entry level rimfire rifle for Appleseed events, I'd be willing to bet that 95%+ of the responses on here would be, "Go get a Ruger 10/22, put sling mounts on it, a GI sling, and maybe add Tech Sights or a 4x scope from Nikon.  End of story.  It's called the Liberty Training Rifle.  I probably wouldn't hear a word about Marlin or Savage or trigger replacements, urethane bolt bumpers, and Ramline magazines.

I totally understand that the AR platform is extremely well represented in the market and aftermarket and that everyone has their personal preferences.  (It's kind of like having a LEGO set. )  However, I'd be willing to bet that if some of the shoot bosses/instructors put their heads together with the goal of coming up with a centerfire, AR-style "Liberty Training Rifle", it could be done.

In fact, I'd like to issue that as an informal challenge to the Appleseed organization.  Everyone I've met in this organization has been extremely selfless and giving of their time and expertise.  I've never heard anyone at an AS event criticize a student for their choice of rifle or tout theirs as the best.  I know a group of you could get together and lay aside personal preferences to figure out what would be best for the entry level centerfire AR shooter.  Any takers?