Project Appleseed

Here's JB's tool:

Can anyone not see the digital version of the tool that was linked in my reply? The good thing about it is that it was CAD and it is exact. If you use the scanned version of the original you must check it to make sure that the dimensions are correct.


Mike

Quote from: jmdavis on November 28, 2011, 10:43:53 PM
Can anyone not see the digital version of the tool that was linked in my reply? The good thing about it is that it was CAD and it is exact. If you use the scanned version of the original you must check it to make sure that the dimensions are correct.


Mike

I get a "you are not authorized to view this section of the forum" on you link. I would like obtain the digital version.

Here is the Cad version of the tool.

Ok, the same AR that I measured the front post moa to be 9.76 almost covered a sheet of paper (8 1/2") at 100yds.   I didn't get a chance to use the cad sheet yet, though.  Maybe this weekend.

PHenry is on it. Whatever YOUR sight looks like when compared to a man-sized target at ANY distance is what's important. Who cares if it's 4.76 or 8.79 or whatever. What you're really looking for is "where does my sight cover up that 20" target?"

If you have range available, take a 20" silhouette (or 6' cardboard cutout of Bob) and post it out there somewhere. Back up until your sight is the same size as the silhouette. Range it using a range finder or posted signs at the club, tape measure, whatever. Find out the "exact" distance and then calculate the size of your sight using this formula.

Range = (Target Size in inches/ Sight Width in minutes) X 100

You know your target size is 20" and the distance. Divide it out to find the sight width.

Example - My sight covers up Bob at 250 yards. I know Bob is 20" wide. I take 250/100 and get 2.5. I take 20/2.5 and get 8. My sight is 8 MOA wide.

But that's not what's important. What's important is I know when I look through my sight that it completely covers a man-sized target at 250 yards. If that target is twice as big as my sight then it's at 125 yards. If the target is only 1/2 the size of my front sight, it's at 500 yards.

All I really need to know is can I shoot without a correction or do I need to add some dope. The size doesn't need to be exact for that. We can round and approximate and still be well within 4 MOA, especially considering we're only shooting to 500 yards and most BSZs are at 250/300 already.

Probably the easiest way for us to approximate front sight size is do as oladcock said - color in some squares on the 5-spot targets. We already have four squares colored in for us on each target. Most folks are going to be 50-150% bigger than that. We can add a darkened square or two on each of the 5 square targets and they can go from one target to the next until it matches up. Boom! They know their size.

It would be really easy to have them darken the boxes while you're explaining the concept. As a matter of fact, I'm going to try this at my next event. I'll have shooters leave the center target alone. Top left is 5, top right is 6, bottom right is 7, bottom left is 8. They can fill in the boxes while I'm going over the concept and then we'll post them at 25 and have everyone look through their sights. We'll get a measurement and then test it out on the distance range.

For a KD event this would be very easy to do during sight in. For typical AS weekend events with no KD component we could do this at lunch on Sunday and that would give us an extra trip to walk downrange and get the blood flowing to wake up after a fine meal.

We could get really creative and have an exercise that would require them to measure different targets using only their front sight and then determine the distance to those targets using the formula above. "OK, now you know the size of your front sight.... tell me how far away that simulated 20" target in the upper right corner is. You measured it as 3/4 of your front sight. How far away is it?"

That adds another variable because now they have to figure out how much an extra 25% is. Most of this is probably WAAAaaaaaaaay too advanced for typical AS events, but it's not too hard for IBC/RBC/KD days. Personally, I have a "no math in the field" policy save for my "if it's smaller add some dope if it's bigger shoot it now" rule. Same goes for wind. I'd hate to see shooters out there with their dope book and a calculator trying to calculate 1/2 value 10 mph wind at a target 3/4 the size of their front sight post. Great for RBCs and great for us to learn.... but not necessarily weekend event stuff. 

I'll give some of this a shot on Sunday. I'll have the shooters measure their sights using the blocks on the 5-spot target and I'll have the instructors crunch the numbers after hours. I'll let you folks know how it goes. 

 
The 1" squares on the RWVA 25m squares target are 3.5 MOA wide and 3.5 MOA tall IF the target is posted 25m away.  Each 1/4" is 7/8 of an MOA at that distance.  You could compare your front sight to a 3.5 MOA square and guesstimate from there.  Or even color in some of the 1/4" squares to the sides to make a 7 MOA rectangle.
 
If you know the width of the front post in inches (it may be marked, or can be measured with calipers) then you can do the following:

1) Measure the sight radius, and ADD your eye relief distance to it.  Convert this distance to YARDS.  (It is the length of two sides of a long skinny triangle, analogous to the target distance (yards) in IMC).  = Y

2) Use the measured sight width in inches (the short side of the long skinny triangle, analogous to inches in IMC). = N

3) Use the conversion factor 1.05" per MOA per 100 yards.  Use 1.05"/((1 MOA)×(100 yd)) or its reciprocal.  In this case your data is (N/Y).

(N/Y)*((100yd)*MOA)/1.05" =(100*N)/(1.05*Y) = sight width in MOA.

There are lots of ways to learn about your front post.  Keep it in mind and in view 
   

Like I told the math professor at Gibsonburg several years ago when she was upset that I discouraged people from using fractions.... "When you tell me how I can do 3/8 of a click on my sights, I'll start instructing it that way."

Her reply was 5/4 of people think math is hard. She's correct that we are math-averse in this culture. We're smart, but don't put us on the spot. As such, we should do our best to utilize the K-I-S-S method. We don't need .05s and .79s and EXACT measurements. We need "good enough" to hit 20" targets at 500 yards. With the relatively GIGANTIC margin of error acceptable it's kind of silly for us to split hairs.

I like the fact that we're looking for precision but for Appleseed purposes, is it really necessary?

Instead of splitting hairs on the numbers, why don't we come up with good ways for us to help shooters conceptualize what we're trying to do. Perhaps some drills to aid in mastering the concepts? While they may not be able to precision engineer their shots at 479.2 meters, they will be able to ring steel all day long at 500 yards.

Are we going for perfection in a few shooters or "conceptualizing" in everyone?  And probably more importantly... how are we using our time in doing so?

Knowing your front sight width allows you to accurately range distances with your front sight. While not necessarily an "Appleseed" skill, this is an important skill for the rifleman. We spend some time on this at bootcamps and it is one of the more practical lessons that we teach, particularly for hunters.

Another example is kentucky windage At 500 yards a full value 10 mph wind will blow you off the target (7.91MOA), knowing that your sight is 7 (or 8, 9 or 12) moa wide will let you hold (full sight width) or shade (1/2 sight width) the front sight to stay on target. To use these skills you need to both know them and practice them. Knowing that you have an 8 moa sight, a full value 10 mph wind and a 500 yard target can mean this difference between a hit and a complete miss.

 
You can't focus on the front sight and the target at the same time, so yes, you shouldn't be looking for three significant figures for your front sight width in MOA.

If you spend a lot of time shooting squares at 25m, and you know that that square is 3.5 MOA across, you can get a good sense of how wide your front post is.

If you are really bored and it is raining, you can amuse yourself by doing the math.

Ok, I must not have received the PM changing the size of 1 MOA at 25m.  From our Instructor's manual:

"This process is simplified by the one inch square practice targets in current use at
25meters. The one inch squares are placed on a grid of ¼ inch squares. It follows that
each of these ¼ squares represents one MOA."

Here in TN, we've been teaching that each 1/4" square is 1 MOA.  Have we been doing this wrong?

Quote from: TN_Dadx5 on December 06, 2011, 02:06:13 PM
Ok, I must not have received the PM changing the size of 1 MOA at 25m.  From our Instructor's manual:

"This process is simplified by the one inch square practice targets in current use at
25meters. The one inch squares are placed on a grid of ¼ inch squares. It follows that
each of these ¼ squares represents one MOA."

Here in TN, we've been teaching that each 1/4" square is 1 MOA.  Have we been doing this wrong?

I think he is accounting for the difference in 25 yds vs. 25 m.  Although I calculate a 1 inch square to be closer to 3.65 MOA at 25 m. 

If I didn't shave my head I'd be splitting hairs.  Do eyebrows count?

Our 1/4" squares are 1 MOA the same way 500 yards is a 1/4 mile.  - And we should continue to instruct it that way.

Quote from: jmdavis on December 06, 2011, 01:18:54 PMKnowing your front sight width allows you to accurately range distances with your front sight. While not necessarily an "Appleseed" skill, this is an important skill for the rifleman. We spend some time on this at bootcamps and it is one of the more practical lessons that we teach, particularly for hunters.

Another example is kentucky windage At 500 yards a full value 10 mph wind will blow you off the target (7.91MOA), knowing that your sight is 7 (or 8, 9 or 12) moa wide will let you hold (full sight width) or shade (1/2 sight width) the front sight to stay on target. To use these skills you need to both know them and practice them. Knowing that you have an 8 moa sight, a full value 10 mph wind and a 500 yard target can mean this difference between a hit and a complete miss.

This is what we need to teach the shooters. Does it matter if their sight is 7.64 MOA or 8 MOA? In practical terms, no. What matters is they master the concept of using their front sight as a field-expedient measuring device.

When we split hairs over a MOA being this measurement or that measurement or worry about front sights being .6 or .8 we're missing the boat on the entire concept we're trying to get across.


... and don't we always leave them with "you should know your rifle/ammo combination and WRITE IT DOWN!!!!"

Quote from: TN_Dadx5 on December 06, 2011, 02:06:13 PM
Ok, I must not have received the PM changing the size of 1 MOA at 25m.  From our Instructor's manual:

"This process is simplified by the one inch square practice targets in current use at
25meters. The one inch squares are placed on a grid of ¼ inch squares. It follows that
each of these ¼ squares represents one MOA."

Here in TN, we've been teaching that each 1/4" square is 1 MOA.  Have we been doing this wrong?

Pretty close.  Close enough for what we're doing I think.  But an MOA at 25m is about .29" I think.

Quote from: slim on December 06, 2011, 02:29:35 PM
When we split hairs over a MOA being this measurement or that measurement or worry about front sights being .6 or .8 we're missing the boat on the entire concept we're trying to get across.

Slim, it isn't hair-splitting.  Just because we can't, won't, or prudently decide to not use precise numbers in our IMC instruction doesn't mean that we, as instructors teaching each other, have to limit ourselves to the same level of "this is good enough, for you, at this time" approximation.  I don't think that this thread is a "how to instruct and no more than that will be allowed" thread.

TN_Dadx5, the 1" square is a little smaller than 1 MOA at 25 yards; it would have to be a 1.05" (1.047") square.  Move it further to 25 meters, and it gets even smaller, to 3.5 MOA.  Just use the word "approximately" and everything is groovy.  For your own knowledge, just keep in mind that a sight adjustment corresponding to 8 of those 1/4" squares is only a 7 MOA adjustment.

If you can't gesstimate the width of your front sight by comparing it to a 3.5 MOA target (or color in a 2" wide at 25m 7 MOA rectangle) the you aren't going to be doing a lot of successful rangefinding past BSZ, but if you can verify that your sight is about the correct BSZ width then you can use it as a go/no-go for man-sized targets within your BSZ zone.

We all have squares targets, and you can use them if you don't have the "front sight MOA" picture.  If you've ever used the "FS-MOA" picture, then you know that it can be difficult to choose between different widths off of the picture, i.e. you could very well be off by an MOA.  Since we spend so much time with the squares target, I use those instead.  The shooters have them in front of them quite a bit, but we don't let them spend much time with the "front sight MOA" diagram.

Quote from: Spanner on December 06, 2011, 03:23:57 PMSlim, it isn't hair-splitting.  Just because we can't, won't, or prudently decide to not use precise numbers in our IMC instruction doesn't mean that we, as instructors teaching each other, have to limit ourselves to the same level of "this is good enough, for you, at this time" approximation.  I don't think that this thread is a "how to instruct and no more than that will be allowed" thread.

Good point. This isn't the instructor thread, this is the public knowledge thread. As such, you are correct. You can talk all day long about whatever you'd like. But, is that what we do on the AS forum?

Not trying to be debbie downer here and I'm definitely not knocking anyone for being precise. I'm simply making the point that as it relates to Appleseed, this isn't helping anyone. The question has been answered and several pretty decent ways of "figuring it out" have been presented.

Anything further IS splitting hairs and when the noobs come along to figure out how to use their front sight we have them doing trig problems instead of simple, field-expedient methods that a rifleman uses. We're not shooting 10x at 1,000. We shoot 4 MOA at 500. As you've pointed out, it's a go/no-go standard and we've already gone ahead.

Slim and Spanner,

Thanks for the info, I'm glad that I'm not teaching wrong (I'm ok not teaching exact).  I've been shooting for a long time but never got involved in the detailed math behind it.  This thread has been helpful in another way.  After calculating my AR-10's front sight, I was wondering why they would make it just off at each 10 yards.  Then I reread the thread and added my eye relief and its pretty much dead on 100 yd when the target appears as wide as the front sight.

Charlie

All the front sight stuff is nice but you should be able to do it without the sight, too.  I can remember getting into arguemtents with my hunting/shooting buddies about "how far away is that ground hog?"  Sometimes they are standing up, sometimes they are horizontal and feeding, sometimes they are nervous and you can only see a small part of their head.  If you want to hit the head (there is no other target but the head unless you just like making a mess) you have to be able to look at the target, look at various items around the target and judge (guess accurately) the range as you'll have to hold over/under based on the range.  I must have been pretty good at it as I rarely missed and I only hit one below the head in three years.

Practice.  Take a walk.  Pick a target.  Estimate the range.  Walk it out and see how far the target really was from your starting point.  Repeat it till you're good at it.  Used to work for me.

You can't replace inches/minutes/clicks with the above but its a good thing to be able to do.

Quote from: Old Dog on December 06, 2011, 06:50:11 PMPractice.  Take a walk.  Pick a target.  Estimate the range.  Walk it out and see how far the target really was from your starting point.  Repeat it till you're good at it.  Used to work for me.

Excellent suggestion!

If you folks don't know your "pace count" then you should learn it. Go to a football field and walk the hundred yards. (110 for meters.) Count how many paces (every left foot) it takes. Do the same thing on rough or uneven ground. Get a good number for you.

Then, when you're out hunting you can pace it off to landmarks. "That big tree is 140 yards. The base of the little hill is 365. The creek is 490."

Using pre-determined distances IS an Appleseed-related skill and part of our KD lesson. It's something all of us should know how to do and it will also reinforce using the front sight as a double check. "I paced it off as 395 and my front sight tells me it's just a shade under 400. If my target is there I'll add five clicks and be dead on." 

Quote from: slim on December 06, 2011, 01:01:49 PM
Like I told the math professor at Gibsonburg several years ago when she was upset that I discouraged people from using fractions.... "When you tell me how I can do 3/8 of a click on my sights, I'll start instructing it that way."

Her reply was 5/4 of people think math is hard. ...

Slim: "She" was upset? "Her" reply? You mean there's a math-professor chick frequenting the Appleseeds at my home range? Cool!

JMD: I liked the stuff we did at bootcamp, using frontsight to estimate range on a target of known size. The tool you're talking about seemed elegant in its combination of effectiveness and simplicity.