Project Appleseed

It appears to me that mini-14s suffer from production Q/C issues.  I've shot Monday/Friday rifles that I wouldn't bring out of the truck at an Appleseed.

I saw a Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday  rifle last weekend, at the  Rochester, MN   Appleseed.

we had a young man shooting an off the shelf, totally stock  mini-14

It was his first Appleseed, his best score on Sunday was 198

A little more practice and he'll shoot Rifleman w/that mini-14

I've seen the same thing.  I always liked the Mini-14's (maybe it was an A-Team thing ).  I had a good friend that shot very well with his Mini and swore by them.  He got 1.5 MOA off a lead-sled and pulled off some amazing shots.

I'm inclined to think that Texas Rifleman hit the nail on the head:  Great truck gun.  Like the Range Boss at my shoot said:  They're great at what they were designed for...

I just don't want another Appleseed student to endure the kind of frustration I went through--I'm sure it built some character, but I'd prefer to build rifle skills.

Good to hear that there's a happy Mini-14 Sharpshooter out there!

"I just don't want another Appleseed student to endure the kind of frustration I went through--I'm sure it built some character, but I'd prefer to build rifle skills."

Add .22 AR conversions to that list as well. Had another example this weekend......O.L.

An Appleseed is the worst time to finally shoot your rifle enough to find out that it either won't work reliably or it won't group well.  Unfortunately an Appleseed is also the first time many shooters learn either about their rifles/ammo choice.  Fact of life.  The folks coming to Appleseeds these days are increasingly not "gun people".  They may become gun people after they get a taste of the fun/feeling they get when they learn to use that rifle better and they many not.

An unreliable gun is a result of many things and the owner shares some responsibility in the ownership, lack of prior use, lack of understanding of the gun.  You may be able to be a great race car driver while not being able to understand how to fix the car since someone else will pay others to work on it for you.  It's pretty tough to be a good rifleman without understanding how to properly take care of your rifle and troubleshoot problems with it.  No one else works with your rifle as much as you do, so get to it, or spend the rest of your life blaming manufacturers, ammo, the scope, the weather, some guy yacking away in the next lane, etc., etc., etc.

Quote from: oladcock on October 04, 2011, 01:47:23 AM
"I just don't want another Appleseed student to endure the kind of frustration I went through--I'm sure it built some character, but I'd prefer to build rifle skills."

Add .22 AR conversions to that list as well. Had another example this weekend......O.L.

I'd say the conversion kits are like the mini-14s, in that some can/will shoot a RM score, and some will never do it. 

ARchick from MN shot her RM score using a Ceiner kit,  IIRC.  I've seen the CMMG kits do it as well.  The conversion  kits seem to work best when paired w/ an older upper, w/ a 1:12 twist.

I've got an early model Mini-14 that I bought used and put into a Hogue overmold rubber stock.  I just recently pulled it out of the safe and thought that I would try to make it into an LTR, but have found it to be inconsistent and not up to shooting a rifleman score in my hands so far.  I'm toying with the idea of sending it off for an Accuracy Systems harmonic stabilizer installation ($320) because I'm not going to spring for a target bull rebarreling ($800).  I like the simplicity of the rifle, but not willing to sink 3 or 4 times its value into rework.

We had one at the last shoot where, with the sight cranked all the way down, it still shot four moa high. However, it made it through all of Sunday with no malfunctions.

Quote from: Texas Rifleman on October 03, 2011, 06:24:33 PM
Good post Sicktone.
I have a Mini-14 that on a good days shoots 1.5moa 3 shot group at 100, but normally it's more like 3.5moa. I imagine once I started hammering down and that thin barrell heated up it would go to 6moa.
Never tried an Appleseed with it. Probably never will.
It makes a good "hog gun" and that is what I use it for.
Like you said it is a trim little package with impressive fire power.
I would'nt one anyone pointing one at me, no matter how inaccurate they are said to be.
Makes a great truck gun...as intended.

I saw weirdness with one student who, after a period of instruction or history, the rifle would shoot great.  But by the time we rolled through an AQT to stage 4, the rifle was all over the place.  We put an instructor on the rifle that shot it cold.  It was wild to watch.  As the instructor was shooting the rifle at rifleman's cadence and shifting from square to square.  As the rifle heated up, the groups opened up.  Cold rifle, great shooter.  Hot rifle?  Nasty. 

We eventually handed the student another rifle, which made for a far less frustrated student.

Got my Mini back from Accuracy Systems on Friday.  I was able to shoot it a bit on my personal 25M range on Sunday to check out sight alignment and mount and sight in a red dot on the scout mount installed on the upper gas block.  Rifle functioned fine, the linear compensator on the newly installed harmonic stabilizer is loud, but really effective in suppressing recoil.  I was able to shoot some 2 or 3 MOA groups with Lake City M855 (SS109) and M183 55 gr.  I didn't have the time to try and run it through an AQT, so most of my shooting was cold or slightly warm barrel.  They installed a Fire Sight fiber optic front sight that can be sighted through the scout mount.  I drilled and tapped my rear peep sight plate for a screw in aperture, but I was able to shoot my best group of the session with the red dot vs. the irons.  I'm going to continue to see what ammo it prefers and work with it to determine if it has the stuff to be an LTR.

I am going to buy a .223, and was considering the new mini-14 "Target" rifle.  I've often heard about the mini-14 accuracy issues, but was hoping the Target version might be the solution.  I think going to the AR platform may be the best solution.  I have friends who get great accuracy from theirs.

Quote from: UpChuck on January 19, 2012, 02:12:43 AMI think going to the AR platform may be the best solution.  I have friends who get great accuracy from theirs.

I used to have a mini-14. Emphasis on the "used to" part.

The mini is an awesome rifle for throwing in the pick-em-up truck or on the ATV, etc. It's great for adding a folding stock and red dot on there and having a decent little semiauto to carry around while you're out doing chores or just to dump some ammo and have some fun. But, it's not so great for cutting X-rings at 500... and that's a lot closer to what we do.

With the recent price drops in the AR world (DPMS and S&W sell their base models for just over $600 now) it's really a no-brainer to go with the AR. The cost difference just doesn't justify it any more. The AR is a much better rifle for target shooting.

Since we're a field shooting program though, I wouldn't pass up on a mini if my fields were only about 300 yards. They're plenty accurate within that range.

Slim is right. The Mini is a good rifle, out to a certain distance (so is an AK).

That being said, there's some pretty good reasons to go the AR route.

Most folks don't realize the AR-15 platform is undoubtedly the most accurate semi-auto platform made. Dig back through some old issues of "Precision Shooting" and you'll see. That magazine started out as a Benchrest competitor's magazine, and has been expanded some over the years. I personally know the editor, Dave Brennan, met him at his first BR competion in Millerton NY when I was about 13-15 years old (and a fellow shooter).

There was an article where a guy up in Ontario got an AR to shoot groups under 1/4 MOA. That's with a lot of aftermarket/custom parts and some serious gunsmithing, but I know of no other semi-auto rifle that can come close.

With a little parts picking and building, a 2-3 MOA AR-15 is a fairly easy proposition, and all a good rifleman needs. So, unless you're experimenting, why fiddle around?

My AR has it's uses, just as my bolt guns have theirs and my .30 cal semis have theirs. If I'm looking for good groups from positions, and reasonably rapid fire, it's my AR. The others come into play in their strong areas.

Add to that http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/firearms/rifles/tactical/psa-16-hf-m4a1-patrol-carbine.html is cheaper once you consider the fact that it comes with an optic, and apparently shoots 1-1.5 MOA (can't find the review link, but I KNOW I read it) is of much better QC, more accurate, and has many, many, many more accessories, I don't see why you would buy a mini-14. Unless, of course, you just wanted one. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that! I am aware that the PSA patrol Carbine is currently out of stock, but MSRP is 999.99, with frequent sales.

You could also build an AR cheaper, it only takes an afternoon.

Using http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/rifle-kits/16-4150-chrome-lined-mid-length-rifle-kit.html

and the lower of your choice (the same company has them on sale for 49.95), you can build an AR for a very reasonable price, and it is still high-quality. Plus, PSA has great customer service

I'm not just throwing these links out there, they are what I built my AR with. I'm currently dealing with GG&G to get the rear sight I want, but my rifle shoots reliably and is more accurate then I am.

Roland

 I bought a Mini-14 back in the 90's. Shot it a fair amount, using factory ammo and reloads.  An 'older', '182' series as I recal. It suffered from all the ills the Mini is infamous for. Wouldn't group in a bushel basket, totally indifferent to sight adjustments, blah blah & so forth...

I did a fair amount of research on-line trying to figure out;' what to do, what to do ?'. Long distance calls to various chop shops pondering if it was worth the price of an overhaul, reading anything I could find on the subject, etc.
In the course of an on-line discussion some bright boy suggested that if one was suffering from 'Mini-itis', the cure was to get an AR, and 'don't look back'. Proved to be good advice.
That said,,,I would  like to try a 'new' model Mini, '585' series, or however they are designated. The newer models are supposed to have addressed all (or most) of the problems the Mini was (is) hated for. The idea of a semi .223 that weighs 2.5lbs. less than an AR, and will consistently group 4" or less at 100yds. was then, and is now, still a good idea. But I'll have to see it first.
Ruger was far too recalcitrant in dealing w/ the situation as far as I'm concerned.
I could go on,,,but it's an old subject.....    
 

Quote from: KodyJaret on January 19, 2012, 10:37:18 PMI would  like to try a 'new' model Mini, '585' series, or however they are designated. The newer models are supposed to have addressed all (or most) of the problems the Mini was (is) hated for. The idea of a semi .223 that weighs 2.5lbs. less than an AR, and will consistently group 4" or less at 100yds. was then, and is now, still a good idea. But I'll have to see it first.

The "new" minis I've seen on the AS lines have been pretty good as far as accuracy goes. They're nowhere near AR accurate, but they're good enough.

The Mini-14 is a brush gun. It's for riding the rails, doing chores, etc. Just like the AR wasn't designed to be a machine gun, the Mini wasn't designed to be a sub-MOA shooter. Different tools for different jobs.

    I have a mini ranch, that I've scored rifleman with, iron sights. Good enough, paid $450.00 used, former owner bought an AR, said the mini wasn't accurate enough. I like it, fun to shoot. Tried to get the wife to shoot an AR, she said I'm not shooting that ugly  thing. I put some wood furniture on it thought I would trick her into liking the AR. Still ugly, so I showed her my mini  . http://www.mini14ranch.com/  These guys seem to know a little about the mini.
   Winter project, re-barrel, glass bed the wife's mini  . 

D-fly  Whatever it takes to get the wife shooting centerfire  .
   

Quote from: dragonfly on January 20, 2012, 10:45:08 AM
    I have a mini ranch, that I've scored rifleman with, iron sights. Good enough, paid $450.00 used, former owner bought an AR, said the mini wasn't accurate enough. I like it, fun to shoot. Tried to get the wife to shoot an AR, she said I'm not shooting that ugly  thing. I put some wood furniture on it thought I would trick her into liking the AR. Still ugly, so I showed her my mini  . http://www.mini14ranch.com/  These guys seem to know a little about the mini.
   Winter project, re-barrel, glass bed the wife's mini  . 

D-fly  Whatever it takes to get the wife shooting centerfire  .
   

Yes, Accuracy Systems does know a lot about the Mini-14 and they do good work.  Spendy, and they will market you for more upgrades and cost, but they turned mine around quickly with a quality install of the harmonic stabilizer.  I haven't had a chance to shoot an AQT with it, but I have shot one-hole 5 shot groups at 25m with a variety of ammo, so I know it is more than capable after $600 work on a $300 used Mini-14. I like the little gun, and was willing to spend the extra bucks to try and make it a shooter, but if you are on a budget, you may be happier with an AR variant.

Quote from: dragonfly on January 20, 2012, 10:45:08 AM
    I have a mini ranch, that I've scored rifleman with, iron sights. Good enough, paid $450.00 used, former owner bought an AR, said the mini wasn't accurate enough. I like it, fun to shoot. Tried to get the wife to shoot an AR, she said I'm not shooting that ugly  thing. I put some wood furniture on it thought I would trick her into liking the AR. Still ugly, so I showed her my mini  . http://www.mini14ranch.com/  These guys seem to know a little about the mini.
   Winter project, re-barrel, glass bed the wife's mini  . 

D-fly  Whatever it takes to get the wife shooting centerfire  .
   

Think maybe the 762 cartridge is an inherently more accurate ?
As for making an AR good looking enough for Mrs D-Fly --kinda like the lipstick on a pig !
now the mini's have just good lines