Project Appleseed

Hello everyone.  I'm new to appleseed, and new to the sport of shooting.  So, on one hand, I don't have any bad habits.  On the other hand, I am not fully prepared how to deal with various skills a new shooter should work to develop.

That being said, I've attended one appleseed event, and have had significant improvements in my knowledge, skill and competency with a firearm.

Now to my problem:  With my higher power rifles - 12ga Winchester SX3 deer gun and springfield 1903, I am flinching badly and I am having difficulty in trying to work through it.  I don't flinch with my ruger 10/22.  My flinching is bad enough that I'm poorly inaccurate, and at the moment I'm not comfortable going into the field this fall hunting without addressing my problem.

So, I figured and I am hoping some of you can help me figure out how to address it, because I'm not sure how.

Is it simply more trigger time?  Is it countless empty magazine drills?  Is it countless dry fire exercises?  Is it that I have to actually learn how to handle the recoil (I've gotten the scope in my forehead with my SX3 numerous times) properly?

Any comments, suggestions and/or ideas are greatly welcome.

Last point first. Check the manual on where the scope should be mounted. If you are getting hit with it, it may be mounted too far back and needs to be moved forward.

The only cure for flinching is Ball & Dummy. Dry firing a lot helps too, but the cure is B&D. Take as needed.

2cl

Ball and Dummy will reveal that you have a flinching problem with centerfire rifle - but in and of itself cannot necessarily cure it or discover the root cause.

The centerfire recoil is revealing that you don't have a good firm cheek weld with the rifle.  This may be because of a combination of the Length of PUll (LOP) being wrong and that you have to lift your head from a firm cheekweld in order to get good sight alignment on your scope.

Having a real big eye relief (ie the scope being moved well away from your eye) allows the poor cheek weld, loose pull into the pocket to still let the rifle "jump" relative to your head and upper body but without the black eye. But the real fix is if you can build the rifle to fit you better, (LOP and cheek pieces for weld) then you can actually shoot centerfire rifles with the scope very close to your eye and yet not be bitten. If you pad your shootiing jecket, add a recoil pad, etc to lengthen your stock so that you can pull into the shoulder and turkey neck with sufficient eye relief (and probably move the scope forward as well) and pad the stock so that when you cheek weld you can still see sight alignement (on the scope, no shadows, rigns, etc) then your head and upper body will ride as one with the rifle during recoil - no biting by the scope, no flinching, hence better groups.

Ball and Dummy with a good coach can confirm these fixes and fine tune them.

Cheers
V

Ball and Dummy is one tool. Like V, I find that it primarily shows the shooter what he already knows (that he is flinching, bucking, etc etc).

Here is some advice from USAMU (the Army Marksmanship Unit). See the last question on the page.
http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/USAMU/Techniques.htm

Some other advice is to get relaxed. You can work on the relaxation in dry fire. If you don't have tension it is almost impossible for you to react prior to the shot with a flinch. Is the problem in all positions or just one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_muscle_relaxation

As I implement it, I feel myself relaxing each of my muscle groups starting at my toes and working forward. In a good position (sitting or prone), the only thing keeping you from melting into the mat is your sling.

For the shotgun, consider some light loads (7/8 or 1 oz)  or something like sporting clays where you have no time to think about it. Sporting clays is excellent Shotgun practice. For the 03, the combination of good position (start prone) relaxation, and proper focus on the six steps should help you to overcome it. Try dryfiring 15-30 minutes per night if you can.

PM me for other ideas if these don't do the trick.

Are you using a sling on the 03?  The use of a sling and a good solid position (even prone where the butt pokes back on you harder) will greatly reduce the effects of recoil.  Concentrate on the 6 steps of firing the shot. 

I honestly don't notice the recoil of an M1A or M1 Garand (even when shooting in a t-shirt) as long as I'm using my sling and have a good set of elbow pads on.  Lack of the elbow pads doesn't help with the recoil but raw elbows will get your attention as the sweat works down your arms onto the raw parts.

I have been shooting since I was 8 years old. That was in 1959. Your guns of choice are probably the most recoil intensive guns out there. The 12 gauge with a slug and the 1903 Springfield are both very tough to shoot for a new shooter. I am not surprised if you are flinching with them. The only way I can tolerate the 1903 is with a sling and the rifle shot from position.

And I can shoot either every well, because I have learned to, through lots of experience. I would not hand either to my Grandson to learn on.

A semi-auto in 12 gauge will help tame that thumper. Don't feel bad if you are flinching with the brutal recoil from the guns you are trying to use.

Find something that recoils less. It is a lot more fun.

The saying is, you never see a Harley Davidson outside a therapists office. Well, I don't think you should see  a 12 gauge leaning against the wall outside a therapists office either.

+1.  Best way to avoid flinching is avoid heavy kicking rifles/shotguns.  Barring that, the next best would be to dry fire them A LOT and trick your body into thinking nothing happens when you pull the trigger.  Be sure to have sufficient eye relief in prone.  Also, make your trigger squeeze slower.  If you don't know when the rifle is going to go off, you can't buck.

Another suggestion might be reduced recoil slugs for the shotgun.  Maybe 125 grain handloads for the 30-06.

My solution has been to get away from shooting hard kicking rifles.  I sold my 300 WIN MAG.  Sold both 50 BMGs, although they didn't recoil as bad as the 9 lb 300 WIN.

My wife's  7 lb 30-06 is about as much recoil as I want in a lightweight package.  I shoot a 270 for lightweight hunting.  The Finn M39 doesn't come out of the safe to often, as you might expect.

-David
Edgewood, NM

03 Springfield as in all original WW1 era 03 (not an 03A3 with the longer stock).

My 03 (made in 1919 by the barrel date - that and its a Mk1) has a really short little stock on it.  I'm 6'3" tall and that little short stock just works me over.  If you have long arms you might want to put some kind of pull over stock/recoil pad/extension thing on it to see if you can get your face away/off of the stock.  I can't get my right thumb over the stock on mine to rest my cheek up against and that stock bounding off my cheek bone really gets uncomfortable quick.

As for the shotgun - go to walmart and buy a 100 round box of 12 ga. dove loads (about $23 or $25) and practice with them.  Less recoil, still get the noise, concusion, some recoil and you can practice and get somewhat used to the recoil of a 12 ga.

Yep, good advice above. What kind of scope do you have on it and what's the eye relief? Learned my lesson putting a cheaper scope on a 300 win mag. Cheaper scopes tend to have shorter eye reliefs plus variable scopes have shorter eye relief at the higher powers. Any eye relief less than 3" will be a problem on a hard kicking rifle/shotgun. Shoot left handed to get the full racoon effect and balanced scars! ...O.L.

I am seeing flinch issues with some of our younger shooters who are moving to centerfire for the first time.  The solutions system I am employing looks like this

B&D to diagnose.  Don't skimp on it.  It works.

If the rifle is a poor fit, fit the rifle.  The above solutions work.  A piece of closed cell foam pipe insulation and some vet wrap is a great way to fix a cheek weld.

Dry Practice till it ain't there.

When at the range don't ignore ear protection.  Sound will cause a flinch as just like recoil will.  (Old guys, the ones that tend to know everything  , are the ones that ignore hearing protection the most and can develop horrific flinches because of it.

B&D at the range

Slow your trigger pull down.  Slow it down by three or four times your normal squeeze.  That will force the surprise and enhance relaxation.  Don't tense up, just relax and shoot by the numbers.

Lots of good advice above.

You did mention lots of trigger time, but I would caution that if you are bruised up in the shoulder, more trigger time (especially with significant recoil and possibly not a good fit with stock and sling) will probably only make things worse.  Certainly just dry fire until your shoulder is not tender.  Use that time to modify stock, scope, etc. and to perfect steady hold factors.  Use a .22 if you really feel you need live fire.

Summary:  I've found it very hard to avoid the subconscious response errors (flinch, buck, etc.) when my shoulder is bruised up or some other part of my body is becoming damaged every time I pull the trigger.  In the long run, shooting without damaging your body is a must.  (I guess that given a life or death situation in which I knew I had to put a round or rounds on target, but knew I was going to get beat up by my own rifle in the process, I would concentrate on two things:  complete relaxation before each shot and tricking my mind into thinking there would be no recoil---that it was just dry-fire.  Hopefully neither of us will ever be in that situation.) 

Great information.  Some additional information:

One area I hunt in requires shotgun slug only, so I either get a 20ga and hope it's enough to take the deer down, or try to work through my issues with the 12ga.  I'd prefer to work through the issues because I am confident I can, just need some assistance with getting things squared away with consistency and dedicated practice.

I want to concentrate on the SX3, my deer gun, which has a rifled barrel so I'm not sure I can just get some half load bird shot to get used to the gun.  I have a friend who is just getting into loading so maybe I can have him load me some lighter slugs to try them out to get used to the gun more.

I have a swift 680 M Illuminated 3-9x40 scope, mounted very low.  The eye relief is roughly 3".  I've never measured it but I'll check it and post my findings.

The SX3 also has a foam stock end that is some inches deep.  Part of me wonders if that foam end is allowing the gun to push back into my eye, and I might be better served with a stiffer stock, or one that is longer.  But, I'm not sure where to look to find those types of parts for my gun.  Apparently the rifle came with spacers that you can put on the stock between the stock and the recoil pad, but since I got the gun used I don't have the spacers.  I'll have to look around and see if I can find them.

I'm tall, 6'5" with a long neck and long arms, so I'm wondering if my positioning on the rifle maybe where part of the issue.  Of course the next question is:  How do I know for sure if I have a good cheek weld?

FYI:  I have a Ruger 10/22 and can shoot that all day long without flinching.

I should have time to hit the range this weekend so I'll focus on trying to fit in the gun better and doing some dry fire during the week after work.  I'll then make sure I fire from all positions this coming weekend to get a better feel for it too.

hrm.  interesting.  Eye relief for me and the swift scope is 4" @ 3x magnification.  So, that should yield plenty of room for recoil.  Recoil pad is roughly 2 1/2", so I'm doing something else, which alludes to cheek weld not being good enough for my head to move back with the recoil.

Of course, this is only one piece of the puzzle.

Not having seen your body position in relation to your rifle (but reading your post about your height and long arms) I'd say one thing you can do to change were your cheek is at on the 03 Springfield is to "open up" the angle between your body and rifle.  If your upper body is twisted so you're facing the target (left shoulder farther back = if you're shooting right handed) it'll move your head rearward on the stock putting your eye farther back from the receiver.

Don't know about rifled slug barrels and birdshot.  Never had a rifled shotgun barrel (4" three shot groups at 85 yds. is plenty good enough out of a 60 plus year old Ithaca M37).   

I don't have a clue what that shotgun looks like (or the types of mounting system available for it).  Are you using it because of you eyes (can't see the bead)?  Or because you want to ID something in the brush that might turn out to be a deer?  They make scopes that sit out on the barrel (special rifle mounts) but I don't know if they make stuff like that for shotguns.  They use LER (long eye relief) scopes or even pistol/handgun scopes so there is 4 to 5 times as much distance between the scope and your eye as with your present scope set up.

As JMDavis said it is all about relaxation.  Dennis Demille always says that to win a match or shoot well, "you must shoot the rifle as if it is empty".  The only way I have found to do that is through front sight focus. Now obviously you need a comfortable and stable position before any of that. Once you have mastered the fundamentals of position you can start to work and battle with the mental aspect of shooting. By focusing on the front sight we forget the trigger.  It is our focus on the trigger that allows us anticipate the shot and therefore flinch. You can shoot a rifle with a trigger as heavy as 10 pounds or as light as 10 ounces and in both circumstances you know consciously or subconsciously exactly when the rifle will go off. You have to get the trigger pull to become muscle memory to the point that you don't think about it. To the point that when your breath reaches its exhale, the front sight becomes clear, and your body relaxes that the rifle will go off. You know generally when it will break but not the exact moment of the break.  It is a hard thing to learn to do. It is a battle you will fight for your whole lifetime.  By occasional Ball and Dummy and a healthy dose of dry firing you can eliminate the flinch.  Every time I catch myself tensing up for whatever reason I unload the rifle and dry fire several times, re load the rifle and continue. It helps instill in your mind that the rifle is always unloaded. If you want any further help feel free to PM.

TK

Great points about relaxing and paying attention to the front sight.  Since I'm used to shooting iron sights and not a scope (I got it to help more quickly identify my target in the bush) I forgot to focus on the "front sight."  I do that when shooting my .22 and don't worry about pulling the trigger.  Guess I have some work to do this week in the house watching  TV and then hit the range to see if there's any improvement...

Old Dog - thanks for the suggestion to open my shoulders.  funny, after my appleseed I've closed my shoulders more.  I didn't think to try the opposite with the shotgun.

A 12 gauge with a rifled barrel should function fine with light skeet and trap loads.  The pattern will be terrible but that is not what you are using them for.  Make sure you use quality ammo since a poor shot cup will give you more cleaning.  You did not say if the shotgun was a pump or a semi.  I prefer semi since it lessens the recoil.  There are reduced recoil tactical loads for slug and buckshot on the market too.  Something to consider

The SX3 is a semi-auto. Generally lightweight at around 7 lbs.

Well, I'll tell you that the absolutely worst recoiling firearm I ever shot was a Ruger Red Label from the bench, using 3" sabot slugs. Purely miserable, worse than any 300 Mag (and I did have a 300 Weatherby built on a Remington action at one time).

7 pound 21 gauge using slugs is going to be a high recoil situation.

So, consider using a heavier shotgun, if you can. If that isn't going to be practical, then get healed, and then start using those light loads, working into the heavier loads. That's AFTER you get the gun fitted to you.

If you're getting slapped by the scope, the eye relief is too short. If the scope is mounted right, and you're holding the firearm right (turkey necking), the ONLY way the scope can hit you is if the firearm slips totally off your shoulder (as in under your armpit).

If you're getting hit occasionally, then you will flinch.

All the points made above will help get rid of that flinch.

Shooting a shotgun w/ slugs off the bench, even 2 3/4" is just pure misery. Luckily after the gun is sighted in you should'ne shoot more a couple a year. Also not near as painful when suited up in hunting clothes and shot from an offhand position.

Maybe you could get someone to try ball and dummy with you on the shotgun ?

Reduced Recoil 12 gauge slugs:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=96471/pid=43498/Product/

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/hastings-low-recoil-laser-sabot-slugs-12-ga-2-3-4-1-1-4-ozs-5-rds.aspx?a=202707

Quote from: DWillis on September 26, 2011, 10:20:16 PM
Great information.  Some additional information:

One area I hunt in requires shotgun slug only, so I either get a 20ga and hope it's enough to take the deer down, or try to work through my issues with the 12ga.  I'd prefer to work through the issues because I am confident I can, just need some assistance with getting things squared away with consistency and dedicated practice.

I want to concentrate on the SX3, my deer gun, which has a rifled barrel so I'm not sure I can just get some half load bird shot to get used to the gun.  I have a friend who is just getting into loading so maybe I can have him load me some lighter slugs to try them out to get used to the gun more.

I have a swift 680 M Illuminated 3-9x40 scope, mounted very low.  The eye relief is roughly 3".  I've never measured it but I'll check it and post my findings.

The SX3 also has a foam stock end that is some inches deep.  Part of me wonders if that foam end is allowing the gun to push back into my eye, and I might be better served with a stiffer stock, or one that is longer.  But, I'm not sure where to look to find those types of parts for my gun.  Apparently the rifle came with spacers that you can put on the stock between the stock and the recoil pad, but since I got the gun used I don't have the spacers.  I'll have to look around and see if I can find them.

I'm tall, 6'5" with a long neck and long arms, so I'm wondering if my positioning on the rifle maybe where part of the issue.  Of course the next question is:  How do I know for sure if I have a good cheek weld?

FYI:  I have a Ruger 10/22 and can shoot that all day long without flinching.

I should have time to hit the range this weekend so I'll focus on trying to fit in the gun better and doing some dry fire during the week after work.  I'll then make sure I fire from all positions this coming weekend to get a better feel for it too.

"D", I'm 6'4" and a standard 10-22 is about 1" too short for me, a slip-on recoil pad that adds 1" makes it about right.  AR-15 with factory standard stocks is the same, I have to add about 1", that gives me a LOP (length of pull) at 14.5-15". Measure from the trigger to the end of the butt, if it's less than that, odds are it's too short for you.

The stock most likely has a drop appropriate for iron sights. Even a scope on low mounts is going to be 1" or more above that. Making you "hover" above the best cheek weld to get a clear picture. I use a strap-on cheek rest from BlackHawk in situations like that. Just like NPOA, close your eyes, mount the gun and get comfortable, opens your eyes, if the sights/scope aren't lined up, you got work to do. Now some will say just adapt yourself to the gun, these are the same folks that cut their toes off so their shoes will fit or just suffer! ...O.L.

" Now some will say just adapt yourself to the gun, these are the same folks that cut their toes off so their shoes will fit or just suffer! ...O.L. "

One of the folks that comes to the regularly scheduled Sunday shoots is like that.
He is continuously wondering why I take his advice with a grain of salt!!!

Jerry

Improvise, adapt, and overcome....The more we improvise, the less we have to adapt and overcome! ...O.L.

LOL.  I've actually been looking for one of those slip on recoil pads for the 10/22 but haven't found any yet.  I'm going to sit down tomorrow night (I didn't get to it tonight) and see how I fit up with the rifle.  I'm pretty sure its not where I really need it to be.  More information to come once I get through that tomorrow.

http://www.tacticalinc.com/1022-recoil-stock-extension-p-517.html

This is what I bought for my 10/22.  Make it fit better.  If this wasn't a thread about coping with recoil I'd joke that it helped me with the kick from that 10/22 as well.

Believe it or not, I know a guy who complained about my AR15 kicking him.  I left the M1 in the rifle case.  My son just looked at me and grinned.

OD, that looks like it would work well, and cheap!

The standard 10-22 stock, the LimbSaver small slip-on will fit but they are proud of them. It's too big for the "youth" model. I square off the butt so we're not trying to get a straight recoil pad on a curved butt. If you don't square it off, it'll fold over with sling tension and not necessarily in the same direction causing changes in cheek weld....O.L.

How about you bring both the 10/22 and 03 to the next AS? Avoid the Shotgun and 03 for a couple of weeks prior (don't want you sore before you begin). The instructors there will be happy to help you figure out cheek weld, scope placement, LOP and other issues. We have been know to do field surgery on scope mounts as well as comb grafts butt extentions as needed.

Lots of good advice here but accualy seeing the problem works best.

2cl

Ok.  So I sat down tonight with my SX3 and performed some tests.  I definitely have a cheek weld problem.  The stock is much too low and I need to raise it up by a few inches.  So, I'm going to pick up the blackhawk strap-on cheek rest.  In addition, the length of pull is 14", much too short for me.  I really need it to be closer to 15", if not further.  So, I need to figure out how to extend the stock.  There's only 1 factory shim in it so I'm going to see if I can find some shims for the SX3 stock I can buy to add on.

Those are two major pieces.  The cheek weld problem is definitely why I'm getting an eye full of scope from the recoil.  I'll have to look around and see what I can find to fit the shotgun to me better.  I have no doubt this is a major reason why I'm flinching, in addition to becoming more comfortable with the trigger.

Thanks for the link to the 10/22 stock extension.  I ordered it.

Not sure what your blackhawk stock pad looks like.  The ones we put on our M1A's were "sloppy" and didn't work right at first.  No matter how tight we got the straps it still moved around us more than we wanted.  We went to Lowes and bought some of those peel and stick velcro packs.  We took the two (or was it three) inch circles and put two on each side of the stock with the matching pieces on the inside of the cheek pad.  Nailed the cheekpad in place much better than the straps alone.

A tip if you do this - put the coarse piece of velcro on the inside of the cheek pad and the smooth/soft side on the stock.  That way, if you ever have to remove the cheek pad and use the shotgun (like if the scope broke or was knocked out of alignment) then the smooth/soft side won't eat up your cheek like the rough side might.