Project Appleseed

Last weekend my son put about 60 rounds of .223 (55 grain fmj reloads with IMR 4198) through his AR15.  The same reloads were shot through two other AR15's.

When we got home and started cleaning them two of them cleaned up fine but my son's rifle wouldn't "come clean".

I took over and when I looked down the barrel the first thing I thought of was one of those old M1917 Enfields with a corrosive ammo ruined barrel.  I've never seen anything else that looked that bad. 

Saturday and Sunday I spent hours scrubbing the barrel with different bore cleaners, brushes (wore out 3), jags, patches and finally steel wool soaked in solvent on jags.  It is a chromed bore and it is getting better.  The patches come out black as coal.  No copper color, just black.  I was told by a guy on arfcom that the black color is due to the ammonia (bore cleaner designed to remove copper fouling) reaction with lead.

This rifle has a 1 turn in 9" chrome lined 20" barrel.  It has not shot any more .22 rimfire ammo than my 20" barreled AR (and not as much as my 11.5" barreled AR).

However, at this point I can say that we'll not be shooting .22 rimfire ammo through this rifle again.

Best I can say is that I wasn't inspecting the rifle after my son cleaned it (he's a big boy who should be cleaning it well enough without me looking over his shoulder) but I'll be inspecting it from now on.

Also, the guy on arfcom recommended using copper/bronze wool with the bore cleaner rather than steel wool.  I got some at the local ace hardware last night.

I have let it soak (anywhere from a couple of hours to overnight) but I still have stuff to get out of it, even though it looks a lot better.

Have a good one.

Try Bore Tech, I have had great success with it.
-TK

Old Dog,
I'd be very, very careful with steel wool in a barrel...that stuff's tougher than it looks and you can quickly do some damage.  Years ago I ruined a 1911 barrel cleaning it with steel wool. 

Yeah, I bought some copper/bronze wool yesterday and some kroil (suggested by the fellow over on arfcom.)

Actually the issue isn't with the .22 conversion kit, only with this barrel's "reaction" to shooting .22 rimfire ammo through it.  All the ammo we used was jacketed ammo, either Federal or Remington bulk pack.

I'll hopefully get back to it tomorrow night or over the weekend.  Things just keep coming up these last couple of nights that keeps me out of the barrel cleaning business.

I'll report back after I'm happy with the cleaning when its done.

Heck, I didn't even know they made bronze/copper wool.

"Kroil" a penetrating oil has worked very well for me. Run several wet patches down the bore, give it a couple hours then scrub.
I doesn't dissolve the lead, just gets between the lead and the barrel and loosens the grip.

Well, stuffed a plastic cartridge into the muzzle last night, filled the barrel up with kroil and set it in the corner of the garage to soak all night.

Went out this morning to start cleaning it again and after I got the kroil drained out, brushed it a little and hit it with some more Rem. 40X solvent the patches were right back to black as coal again.

I went through the brushing, patching (solvent and dry) for awhile and then worked it over till yet another brush bit the dust.  Still geting little pieces (boogers) hanging/sitting in the barrel after brushing with solvent.  The patch come out black for a few then get lighter and then they come out gray for awhile.

I even got some lapping compound out of the shed, put it on a patch (5 really) and ran it through the barrel on a jag.  They also came out black as did the first patch or two that followed them.  I cleaned it up real good with carb. cleaner and patches to get all traces of the lapping compound out of the barrel and receiver before I oiled it up and put it away.

I'm still not happy with the way the barrel looks.  Its just dark and "wavy" in places vs. the other ARs.  We'll see how it does next trip to the range.  Right now I'm leaning towards ordering a new barrel for it but I may wait to see how it does next trip.

One problem is, with my eyes the way they are these days, the barrel looks okay with my standard reading glasses but when I put on my "let's work on guns glasses" the barrel just ain't right.  I'm wondering what the barrel looked like when it was new.  I know I looked down it and I know I used a brass cleaning rod to knock a piece of metal (hanging down from the gas port hole) loose and out of the barrel but I don't remember looking at it with high powered glasses so I'm not sure it was "perfect and pretty" when it came in from the vendor.

I'll sure check out the next one with the big glasses.

Oh, used some of the bronze wool, too.  Didn't see much difference from using brushes except little pieces came loose and stayed in the barrel till a patch or two pulled them out.

Ordered some lead removal cloth/cleaning material from Brownell's.  I'll find out this weekend if it'll get the rest of the stuff out or not.

This is a chrome moly steel barrel not a stainless barrel correct?

If it was a stainless barrel, you could mix up some "suppressor dip" and clean it that way.  Stuff is toxic as hell when it mixes with lead so you must handle outside and with chemical resistant gloves but it'll clean the lead out.  Problem if you have a chrome lined barrel, it might take the chrome out too.

The dip is made from 50% Hydrogen Peroxide and 50% Vinegar.  It dissolves lead REALLY well.  So well, the lead can absorb through your skin.

But as a last resort, you can use it if you are careful.  Lots of suppressor guys use it to clean the lead deposits out of their baffles.

-David
Edgewood, NM

Just wonderin'.....as I have never used one.....But doesn't Outers make some kind of "Foul Out" device that is some kind of electric rod that you leave in the barrel overnight.

Anybody ever used it?  Any good?  Would it help Old Dog?

Keep us up to date.  I have a 22 conversion kit that has yet to be installed.  Makes me wonder now.

EEL

I used a foul out once on an old HR mod (44?) surplus .22 bolt gun had to fire more than a hundred rounds to get decent accuracy again.
If the kroil treatment did not work, then that lead must really be ironed in.

Its a 22" chrome lined barrel.  I'll work on it tomorrow.

I've used the .22 conversion kit in 4 other AR15's without any similar issue.  There's something different going on here, either with the barrel something else I haven't figured out yet.

I use a ceiner kit in mine and my son's is a CMMG kit.  Not sure what difference that would make but since it just hit me we're using two different .22 conversion kits I'm going to get his kit out and go through it as well to see if there's any buildup in the "chamber" of the conversion kit.

Well, started on it yesterday (again).  I stopped today.  No more time to spend getting it perfect.  Its way better than it was, almost as clean as my rifles.
More brushing with the Remington bore cleaner (wore out two .22 caliber brushes and even wore out a .243 brush).  I got a pack of that lead removing cloth from Brownell's.  I cut it into patches and ran it through the barrel and used up half of the cloth.  It is removing something (lead??) as every patch comes out black as coal.  I let it soak over night sloppy wet with the Rem. 40X bore cleaner and then brushed it some more. 

No .22 ammo in this one from now on.  We'll see how it does with .223 ammo next trip to the range.

Is this kit one of the stainless steel ones from CMMG? I shoot a lot of .22 through through Ceiner kits, and the earlier kits from CMMG, the ones made from carbon steel. I have never had any problems with the carbon steel ones. I bought my daughter a left handed AR, and it is the stainless steel one from CMMG. I have had all sorts of problems with it. It was over-sized (too fat and long to fit in chamber).  It's machining is poor....very sloppy compared to the carbon ones.

Anyway, I am wondering if his kit is under-sized for the chamber. This would allow a lot of fouling to build up in the chamber.  If you use it in one of your rifles, check to see if the fouling is symetrical, or if it is just on one side, etc.  Did his rifle have bad accuracy with the .22 kit? My friend had one from CMMG that was also undersized, and was terrible. This is a guess, but I think the chamber insert was not symmetric, and also the bullet had too far a "jump" from kit to rifling, causing poor accuracy. Also, after a few hundred rounds, it was cemented in from all the fouling, and we had to use a screwdriver to pry it out. CMMG is a great company, and replaced his, which works great. I think CMMG may have some quality control problems.

I have had good luck with Birch-wood casey bore solvent and Kroil, and lots of  time. 
t
If the chamber is clean and you are still geting black patches, it may be some fouling from the gas tube, that the Kroil is loosening up. 

I finally got around to inspecting/cleaning the .22 conversion kit today.  It was pretty clean and no sign of leading inside it.

Its a standard kit, not the stainless steel one.  It was actually the barrel of the rifle that was badly leaded.  Not sure why and since we aren't going to shoot .22's in it anymore I hope I never have to do all this again.

I believe the bore diameters between a .22 LR and .233 Rem are slightly different, with the LR coming up short. Its a tiny amount but it will be enough to make a difference. Definitely in accuracy and most definitely your leading problem.

I used a CMMG unit in my S&W M&P15 this weekend and i used random brands of jacketed ammo. I had no unusual buildup and it came clean really easily.

I've seen several of the conversions and all of them the accuracy sucked. A dedicated upper or a dedicated gun is the only way to go unless minute of barn door will work for you....O.L.

I don't think a dedicated upper is a requirement.
I use my standard .223 upper with a Ceiner.

(I can't recommend them because their customer service is completely non-existent, but they were once the only show in town...)

I had accuracy issues that went away with Blazer 22lr - considerably better than barn door, and definitely under 4moa. (Federal gave it heart burn.)

After I shoot with the 22lr bolt I put the regular bolt in and cycle 3 or 4 rounds of .223, mostly in interest of the higher pressure. I had read on a forum it keeps the gas tube from being fouled by the lower pressure 22lr. Could be complete fantasy, but I do it anyway.

Cleaning hasn't been a problem / no leading, eventhough there is no plating on the Blazer.

Accuracy, as with any firearm, is dependent on several factors.  My first AR15, as unlikely as it seems for accuracy with either caliber, has been seen shooting dime sized 10 shot groups at 25 meters with Remington Golden Bullets (also a favorite of my Ruger 10/22).  Who would think a 10.5" barreled XM177 clone made by Olympic Arms (uhoh, 2 strikes against it already  ) would shoot groups like that - and with no sling at all (vertical fore grip attatched to the bottom of the handguards).

Anyway, accuracy is something you usually have to figure out.  The easy step is buying different brands and bullet weights/types.  Never accept internet wisdon/rumors about which type of ammo is either worthless or best for YOUR rifle.  YOUR rifle is different (all of them are in either big or small ways) from the next one beside it on the rack or the firing line.  Remember bulkhead (from NC)?  He reported trying several types/brands of .22 ammo in his 10/22 before buying some Remington Thunderbolts (widely reported on the internet as being worthless junk) and finding his rifle was a tack driver with that ammo.

Once you find the brand/bullet weight/type of .22 ammo that shoots the best groups in your rifle you need to start practicing with YOUR rifle.  There's really no substitute for practice (either dry firing or with ammo but preferably with both in some ratio that helps you improve).

Of course, any of us that shoot much realize the installation of a good sling and sights, whether Tech Sights or a scope, is also a necessary part of appleseed type shooting.

Everyone like a nice trigger.  How much you work on it or spend on it is up to you.  Lots of folks also like to add the aftermarket stocks, magazine releases, bolt hold open devices, extra capacity (or sometimes reduced capacity) magazines. 

The modificatons/customizations you feel you want/need to make on your rifle is up to you - just remember if your LTR is meant to step in and replace your MBR for cheap practice purposes will it still mimic your MBR after you "trick it out" with all those slick custom parts? 

By using a .22 conversion kit on your AR15 then yes, the way the rifle fits you and the way the "controls" operate are the same.  If you have a separate .22 rimfire version of an AR15 how close is it set up to match your .223/5.56 AR?  If your MBR is an M1/M1A how close does your LTR match up to it?

Just something to think about.  The LTR's primary purpose shouldn't be to get you over 210 on the 25 meter AQT - its to give you a means to cheaper (cheaper than a half dollar a round .30 caliber ammo) practice so you can practice more and save more of your center fire ammo for the big rifle's needs.

The lead was smeared into the rifling from the chamber all the way to muzzle with some areas seeming to be worse than others on my son's AR15.  I can't say it came from the .22 rimfires or whether it came from a 5.56 round that had the (I used some pulled/surplus bullets) jacket damaged enough to come apart as it travelled down the barrel.  The bottom line is I don't know and may never know for sure without a lot of time with me shooting the rifle and trying to duplicate the issue while checking the barrel every little bit (and I sure don't want to go through 2 or 3 weeks of hard work cleaning that barrel again  ).

Have a good one.  Keep it in the black if you can.  If you can't - PRACTCE more!!

Had a shooter this past weekend use a Ceiner conversion kit in his AR for Day 1 of the New Bremen Appleseed.  The kit worked fine, only one malfunction that I remember, but the accuracy wasn't good enough to hold 4 MOA.  While shooting squares or 300/400yd silhouettes, only 2-3 rounds out of every 5 would be on target with the other 2-3 going any which way they wanted.  He was using CCI Blazer ammo for the most part and then I think might of tried some Aguila but I'm not sure.  He switched back to his 5.56 bolt and all of his groups shrunk to 4MOA, so it was definently the conversion kit he was fighting against.

I have a GI M261 conversion kit myself that I use from time to time, but only for CQB practice and drills.  It once again is only capable of 6-8MOA so not good enough for Appleseed/AQT use.  I typically use Federal bulk or CCI Blazer out of it as it gives me the best reliability out of it.

As for leading the bore, I run a boresnake through after each range session with the conversion kit and when I get the chance switch bolts and fire a few 5.56rds through it and dont notice any real difference when I clean the rifle than if I had just fired regular 5.56 ball ammo.

I cannot speak for the others. I used the CMMG unit in my m4 and earned my Rifleman patch with it. i punched the same hole several times.

My CMMG conversion was not as accurate as centerfire.  It was a bit finicky at first but settled down to feed reliably but accuracy was not within 6MOA even from a bench.  I may try to find if there is an ammuniton type or brand that it likes better if I can find the time.

I must have gotten lucky with my conversion. After reading all the bad reviews on the accuracy of conversions i'm feeling pretty blessed.

RE the electrolysis type bore cleaners.
They work, but you can build your own for < $10.00 worth of hardware store parts. Mine is powered by an old cell phone charger. I found the directions on milsurps or a similar site.
G

Well, all that cleaning paid off.  My son shot that AR last weekend and he was pleased with the groups.  He remembered a story I tell sometimes about shooting the thumbtacks out of my buddies target at 25 yds. with my old Win. M52B so he decided to try to do that with his AR15.  I had used staples but he could see them with his scope.  After I finished shooting my groups (one with the SUIT, one with the iron sights & SUIT removed, one with the SUIT) he told me he'd been shooting at my targets upper staples and couldn't figure out why the target hadn't drooped over.  We went out to look at it and found the staples were gone but the bullets had pushed the paper of the target back into targets under it on the backer so the target stayed put.

I'd say he's much happier with it now.  I'll put that conversion it with another 20" HBAR so it'll be there when I take that rifle to the range.

If you get the barrel leaded up again, order a bottle of D-lead all purpose cleaner concentrate. It is advertised for cleaning floors and other surfaces at ranges or industrial settings. When I used to be the gunsmith at Gander MTN in Canton OH, I used it regularly. Mixed it hotter than the directions called for 50% cleaner and 50% watter. I would work it with a bore brush 10-20 strokes, let the sudzey foam  work for 10 min, or so; re brush a few strokes, and run 3 to 5 patches through bore. repeat until patches stop coming out gray. If you have 2 cleaning rods it will save a lot of time.