Project Appleseed

The Dwarven1 may be originally from "Joisey", and transplanted to Mass, but he's not really a Flatlander.

"He ain't a hick from heah, but he's a hick from someweah."

EJ,
  I should clarify my remarks somewhat as its apparent that they are being misinterpreted.

If you cannot afford an M1 and ALL you can afford is a 22, then it is better to be armed than a slave.

If you have the choice between the two, then by all means get the rifle.  My logic behind this is that it doesnt cost a whole lot to get trained and maintain that training with a few AQT's a month.  If the increased cost of ammo between the 22 and the real rifle is whats stopping you from owning it then i refer you again to the darts comment.  Ammo cost should never be the deciding factor when the gun you are looking at has ammo priced similarly or cheaper than other real rifles.

If you really are serious about an affordable gun, magazines and ammo then the best deal on the market today BAR NONE is the AK74 5.45 rifles from century.  guns cost $300, ammo is 12 cents a round and mags are about $13.  You can mod the sights and scope it later if you want, to make it capable at 500 yards (yeah really, an ak can do 500 if equipped right in the 5,45 caliber). 

Also I would point out that a 22 has about 59 ft lbs of energy at 200 yards and has dropped 19 MOA, and a mild 10Mph wind has pushed it at least 16".  even a head shot would not be fatal at this range as it will bounce off the skull or fail to penetrate deep enough.  It is just not a substitute for a rifle when it comes to defense.


lest any of you forget this salient point allow me to remind you.

a citizen without a gun is a slave
the government, the radical islamists and all who wish to do this country harm are not afraid of your letters, your phone calls or your .22.
I case you doubt that, remember back 2 months ago when the  senate voted 57-43 to APPROVE amnesty for illegals, despite 90% of the calls and letters to them being against it. 
I wonder what the vote would have been if 10,000 riflemen showed up armed with an M1 garand and 120 rounds of ammo? ?(

make no mistake about it, You are learning  how to stand on the line and be a deterrent to invasion and tyranny, and you cant do that with a .22.

In short the garand aint that expensive to shoot and maintain.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but they don't fear your rifle either.   

The pen is mightier than the sword and will continue to be so untill someone proves otherwise.  The leasons of history are long forgotten in Washington and we can only hope to rekindle them across the American countryside.  Hence the Appleseed program.

If it ever get to the point of taking up arms and manning a post, weapons will be the easy part.  Finding men to use them and do it well will be the problem.

Hey guys (& gals), the purpose of the LTR covers a large area.

It is fairly cheap to buy and set up for the benefit you'll get from it.

Ammo is available for an unbeatable price virtually everywhere you may take it (compare that to the MBR calibers).

Due to 1 and 2 above it is a great way to get new people started shooting a rifle and for you to practice the basics).

You (and other newbies) can learn the basics of rifle marksmanship with it.

You can practice with it places you can't practice with an MBR (in door ranges, areas where homes may be close enough that the noise of an MBR is objectionable to your neighbors.)

You can use it for small game hunting (getting some practice at camoflage, stealthy movement, stalking, etc. that may come in handy later).

If you really want some extended range practice take the 25 meter standing stage targets and place them at 25 meters (standing stage), 50 meters (sitting stage), 75 meters (prone rapid fire stage) and 100 meters (400 meter prone slow fire). 

I wouldn't deny the appeal of a full power cartridge but the purpose of the LTR is not to replace an MBR for anything but training.

Quote from: SGTCap on December 31, 2007, 09:34:38 PM
If it ever get to the point of taking up arms and manning a post, weapons will be the easy part.  Finding men to use them and do it well will be the problem.

I thought THAT'S what appleseed was for?

Quote from: Paul Shanks on January 01, 2008, 01:56:47 AM

Quote from: SGTCap on December 31, 2007, 09:34:38 PM
If it ever get to the point of taking up arms and manning a post, weapons will be the easy part.  Finding men to use them and do it well will be the problem.

I thought THAT'S what appleseed was for?

First and foremost, Appleseed is about waking up Americans so that they might fight and win the "Soft War" and not have to send 10,000 armed men to Washington to "persuade" Congress to do the right thing.  If the Soft War is lost, then Appleseed will have failed in its' primary mission.

Maybe the "waking-up" process is working, because the illegal immigration bill you mentioned in a previous post failed to become law without a single American taking their Garand to the Capitol.

It might be worthwhile to repeat this Appleseed statement here:

"The Revolutionary War Veterans Association (RWVA) is a gun club and an instructional school that teaches rifle shooting techniques; and also desires to maintain the heritage of the American Rifleman.

We have no affiliation with, nor do we promote or encourage, any subversive or quasi-subversive entities or acts against the United States of America or against the American People, inside or outside U.S. borders.

Any and all instruction and training conducted by RWVA is done in accordance with Federal, State and Local Laws and regulations. RWVA does not and will not train any foreign or domestic entity(ies) that could pose a threat to -- or has denounced -- the United States of America."

Quote from: raf on January 01, 2008, 03:01:09 AM

Quote from: Paul Shanks on January 01, 2008, 01:56:47 AM

Quote from: SGTCap on December 31, 2007, 09:34:38 PM
If it ever get to the point of taking up arms and manning a post, weapons will be the easy part.  Finding men to use them and do it well will be the problem.

I thought THAT'S what appleseed was for?

First and foremost, Appleseed is about waking up Americans so that they might fight and win the "Soft War" and not have to send 10,000 armed men to Washington to "persuade" Congress to do the right thing.  If the Soft War is lost, then Appleseed will have failed in its' primary mission.

Maybe the "waking-up" process is working, because the illegal immigration bill you mentioned in a previous post failed to become law without a single American taking their Garand to the Capitol.

It might be worthwhile to repeat this Appleseed statement here:

Thank you Raf.  Thats the point I have been trying to make.  The waking up process can take place with almost any firearm, even a borrowed one.  We are not trying to arm a militia here.  We are trying to get people interested in shooting and their conservative roots.

Let me make something perfectly clear here.

Politicians fear exactly ONE thing.

Educated Voters.

Why? Because enough Educated Voters will not re-elect them to office, and they know that. They also know they can Buffalo (BS) the public most of the time, especially when the Media plays to their agenda.

What Appleseed does is awaken the sleeping American to what is going on, and give him an appreciation of what our forefathers had to do, so we DON'T have to do it again.

I think at this point, EJ knows which route he's taking. It's his choice. We've shown him several routes he can travel, and soon, our personal biases will play into our comments (truth be known, they are already). Soon this will devolve into an LTR or MBR thread, more than it already is.

So, let's work with him to get him going down his chosen path, and give him all the support, encouragement and assistance we can.

Quote from: Nickle on January 01, 2008, 12:59:54 PM
Let me make something perfectly clear here.

Politicians fear exactly ONE thing.

Educated Voters.

Why? Because enough Educated Voters will not re-elect them to office, and they know that. They also know they can Buffalo (BS) the public most of the time, especially when the Media plays to their agenda.

What Appleseed does is awaken the sleeping American to what is going on, and give him an appreciation of what our forefathers had to do, so we DON'T have to do it again.

then why even bother with the guns at all?  it seems that if this indeed the case that we would be better served by holding a weekend seminar on history and political action!!  Heck if all that needs to be done is to educate ourselves and communicate with our representitives, then we can just ignore the true intent of the 2nd amendment altogether and just depend on the first. 

Maybe EJ should just take that money for the rifle and buy some stamps and calling cards.

If they really do ONLY fear educated voters, then we dont need guns at all.

Paul, I think you fail to grasp how you get the target audience to show up in the first place for one.

You also have a limited grasp on what RWVA is about.

We in NO way, shape, form or manner advocate violent overthrow of the US Government.

Sarcasm is not an effective way to talk to folks here, and I can say that it isn't acceptable here, either.

EJ wishes to learn how to shoot and how to change the way things are in the US.

He may or may not agree with your ideas on what to buy or how to do that. Others may agree or disagree with your ideas on how to accomplish that, and what to own.

How about trying to respect that.

Quote from: EJ on December 28, 2007, 01:57:17 PM
Thanks guys.

Well, obviously if I could afford both, I would have both.( or more...  ) Present personal circumstances dictate otherwise unfortunately.

I would also rather not be stuck with just a .22 should a serious situation develop.

Choices, choices, choices.... Theres always some trade-off.

Consider this;

You are the lead man on a task force and there is a bad guy behind the door with a 10/22 loaded with 10 rounds of CCI Mini Mag HP'.

You are told that the bad guy knows very well how to use the 10/22 and could put 5 rounds between your shirt pockets in less than a second.

You are told you have the choice to go through the door or not go.  You have 5 seconds to decide. 5.....4.....3.....2.....1...... Go or not go?

Quote from: Paul Shanks on January 01, 2008, 05:09:01 PM

Quote from: Nickle on January 01, 2008, 12:59:54 PM
Let me make something perfectly clear here.

Politicians fear exactly ONE thing.

Educated Voters.

Why? Because enough Educated Voters will not re-elect them to office, and they know that. They also know they can Buffalo (BS) the public most of the time, especially when the Media plays to their agenda.

What Appleseed does is awaken the sleeping American to what is going on, and give him an appreciation of what our forefathers had to do, so we DON'T have to do it again.

then why even bother with the guns at all?  it seems that if this indeed the case that we would be better served by holding a weekend seminar on history and political action!!  Heck if all that needs to be done is to educate ourselves and communicate with our representitives, then we can just ignore the true intent of the 2nd amendment altogether and just depend on the first. 

Maybe EJ should just take that money for the rifle and buy some stamps and calling cards.

If they really do ONLY fear educated voters, then we dont need guns at all.

The hope is that guns will not be necessary.

Violence is a last resort, as the Founding Fathers provided for in the 2A.  An intelligent person will prepare for all alternatives, but will work hard to avoid the Hard War.

Any person who refuses to fight the Soft War and instead wishes to instigate violence to effect change is a fool.  A dangerous fool.

Quote from: Nickle on January 01, 2008, 05:25:31 PM
EJ wishes to learn how to shoot and how to change the way things are in the US.

That sums it up perfectly Nickle. I'm not here to debate or argue about personal politics or preferred tactics. I frequent political/social activism fora for that.

I was only seeking advice on how I may do that, in the most expedient and efficient manner possible as far as firearms are concerned.


Just so it's perfectly clear:

I do not condone the initiation of force or aggressive actions against anyone, or any entity.

I believe in being prepared. I would rather have something and not need to use it, than need it and not have it to use. IME, in order to use something "properly", training/proper practice is needed.

I pray I never need fire a single round for the defense of life, or in the defense of our liberties and freedoms. Yet if needed, I want to have the self-assurance I am able to do so.


I'm sorry this thread has devolved into what it currently is; was not my intention at all.

I am very grateful for all the advice and perspectives offered, and hope we can focus on our similarities, rather than our differences.


United we stand, divided we fall.

Quote from: EJ on January 01, 2008, 07:26:03 PM

Quote from: Nickle on January 01, 2008, 05:25:31 PM
EJ wishes to learn how to shoot and how to change the way things are in the US.

That sums it up perfectly Nickle. I'm not here to debate or argue about personal politics or preferred tactics. I frequent political/social activism fora for that.

I was only seeking advice on how I may do that, in the most expedient and efficient manner possible as far as firearms are concerned.


Just so it's perfectly clear:

I do not condone the initiation of force or aggressive actions against anyone, or any entity.

I believe in being prepared. I would rather have something and not need to use it, than need it and not have it to use. IME, in order to use something "properly", training/proper practice is needed.

I pray I never need fire a single round for the defense of life, or in the defense of our liberties and freedoms. Yet if needed, I want to have the self-assurance I am able to do so.


I'm sorry this thread has devolved into what it currently is; was not my intention at all.

I am very grateful for all the advice and perspectives offered, and hope we can focus on our similarities, rather than our differences.


United we stand, divided we fall.

EJ, don't sweat how this thread changed; none of your doing.  Yours is a legitimate question, and informed people can differ as you've no doubt noticed.  The thread may have taken some peculiar twists and turns, but that's not your fault.  Such things happen all the time on the internet, and the rest of us can use such incidents as learning opportunities, if nothing else.  No harm, no foul on your part, IMHO.

Alright.

This one has gone far enough.

I have banned others for continued animosity, and will do so again.

Everyone, remeber, this is not your average gun (or other) forum, where you can spout off with out thought or controll and attack/disrespect/mock or otherwise be rude as a normal course.

ALL.  We do not go for this type of shenaingans.  Treat others here as you would like to be treated.  We are like a family here, and we need to treat eachother accordingly.

Guy

Man Guy......My family just left and I was happy to see them go.  They brought colds, broke a bed, backed up the toilet and taught my childeren "new words".......You mean that kind of family

Play nicely All, I have seen The Guy really mad, and it ain't pretty (not that it was a big step from normal for him ).

BTW, personal attacks on "The Guy" are exempt from adverse actions by the administration!

Back on topic:

LTR or M1, assuming you can only afford one?

Tough call.  Cheaper practice ammo vs. a more-costly round that's better for shooting at longer ranges.

I guess I'd choose the .22, with the understanding I'd be putting my savings on ammo into a jar labelled 'Garand fund.'

I can tell you that Ken S. was hotting the 200 yard pop up in Ramsuer, and knocking it down, shot after shot.  I can't recall if he had to stop at 400, or 300, due to lack of scope adjustment, but it was farther than I thought a .22 would reach.

A M1 is the more powerful choice, yet I beleive the .22 would be of more use right now.

What I (me, and sugestion only!) would do is to get the LTR set up, and to start stocking up on all the 30-06 ammo I could afford.  It won't get cheaper any time soon, and it seems that the Garand is the way you want to go.  You will always be able to find a Garand somewhere for purchase, but the ammo will only be getting harder to find, and will rise in cost faster than inflation, while the gunshow Garands will raise with inflation.

Plus, a 6 month or more wait won't change the CMP price that much.

Only if a new AWB comes in 09 would I get in a panic to get one, and then only maybe.

Good luck, and I hope to see you on a firing line someday.

Guy

Quote from: EJ on December 28, 2007, 12:53:48 PM
Hi all;

If someone could only afford to purchase a LTR or a rack-grade M1;( w/o having the option of hand-picking; never mind possible replacement parts/ammo) which would be the wiser investment?

Any alternative advice/suggestions for us "po" folk? 

T.I.A 

EJ

I'm assuming that you do not presently own a rifle.

I would suggest you ask yourself what is the primary purpose of your purchase of a rifle and how many rounds you expect to fire it on an annual basis.

If learning marksmanship and shooting for recreation is your goal then I would suggest a 22 of some kind.  If Appleseed type of marksmanship is your goal, then you cannot do better than the Ruger 10/22.

If the primary reason is for personal / national defense then a cmp M1 would be first choice.

Good Luck

Quote from: The Guy on January 02, 2008, 01:09:26 AM

Only if a new AWB comes in 09 would I get in a panic to get one, and then only maybe.

Guy

Hey Guy, I like your suggestions better than mine.

The softwar battle of 08 is only 10 months away, about the time of the end of the 2008 appleseed season.

We don't need no stinking AWB

Quote from: The Guy on January 02, 2008, 01:09:26 AM
I can tell you that Ken S. was hotting the 200 yard pop up in Ramsuer, and knocking it down, shot after shot.  I can't recall if he had to stop at 400, or 300, due to lack of scope adjustment, but it was farther than I thought a .22 would reach.

A M1 is the more powerful choice, yet I beleive the .22 would be of more use right now.

What I (me, and sugestion only!) would do is to get the LTR set up, and to start stocking up on all the 30-06 ammo I could afford.  It won't get cheaper any time soon, and it seems that the Garand is the way you want to go.  You will always be able to find a Garand somewhere for purchase, but the ammo will only be getting harder to find, and will rise in cost faster than inflation, while the gunshow Garands will raise with inflation.

Plus, a 6 month or more wait won't change the CMP price that much.

Only if a new AWB comes in 09 would I get in a panic to get one, and then only maybe.

Good luck, and I hope to see you on a firing line someday.

Guy

I'm surprised a 22 had the energy to know anything down at 200meters.  I know I practice on clay pigeons at about 100meters and that is a lot of fun but boringly easy. 

     A penny thrown at a pop-up will trigger them. I've seen people knock them down at 300 without much prob (remember the story I like to tell of the British champion shot who back in 1940 conducted tests with a .22 rimfire [standard velocity!] and determined to his satisfaction that if you "had nothing but a .22", you'd have a weapon that could "do some good" on the enemy [thick-necked Germans, at the time!]).

     In fact, in pre-RWVA days, we had a ".22/400 yard" fraternity - you had to 'ring the gong' on an AQT-size metal target at 400 yards twice in a row (ten shots allowed) to get into the group.

     First, it was off the bench.

     Then, people got off the bench, finding the bench too easy.

     Then, someone issued a "standing" challenge - and it was done standing.

     Then, a pistol shooter said he could do it - and did - off the bench.

     Then, a pistol shooter said he could do it, standing - and did, THREE times in a row, on a dark windy dusk so dark you couldn't see the target - but you could hear it "ding" as he hit it.

      His complaint? "I was having to hold about fifty feet over, using the blue sky in a gap in the trees as my aiming point - and the wind was making the trees sway so the gap kept disappearing on me!"

I think I would go for the 10/22 first. Stock up on 22 ammo and when you feel you have a good stockpile stored up start buying 3006. When you can afford it, buy the Garand.

If the time comes when you need a rifle for personal/national defense, that's not all you are going to need. You are going to need a way to feed yourself and your family too. If you live in the eastern 2/3rds of the country (and most of us do) nothing will feed you better than a 22 rifle. No fuss, not much noise and you can find small game anywhere. It will help defend a garden too.

VAshooter

Quote from: The Guy on January 02, 2008, 01:09:26 AM

Plus, a 6 month or more wait won't change the CMP price that much.

No, it won't change the price much, but it may change availability from CMP. They've been planning on getting out of the Surplus Rifle end of it this year, if they can (before the political climate changes). Not many folks know that, but it is out there. And, they're running low on M1's, have run OUT in fact a couple of times in the past few years.

Folks, the inside info is that EJ is planning on really biting the bullet, so to say, and getting both an LTR and an M1 (assuming he likes the M1).

Quote from: Fred on January 02, 2008, 03:32:54 AM

     A penny thrown at a pop-up will trigger them.

      His complaint? "I was having to hold about fifty feet over, using the blue sky in a gap in the trees as my aiming point - and the wind was making the trees sway so the gap kept disappearing on me!"

Are those pop up's the electronic type that senses bullet impact?

I have had the opportunity to use those a few times and they are interesting indeed.  They could be programmed to require multiple hits also.  1, 2, 3 or could be made to reappear after a hit.  Sure was fun.

Regarding the 22 LR again (the world's most underrated cartridge);

In my younger days I have made many trips to Wyoming, SD, MT and a few other states in an attempt to wipe out prairie poodle towns.  The general practice was to start with the 22 LR (I had best results with Winchester Power Points).  On windless days out to 75 yards the greatest difference between 22 center fires and the 22 LR was the absence of Red Mist, and the aerial display.  100 yards is about the limit of my ability with the 22 LR, however my cousin that I hunted with and the best field shot I have ever seen was devastating out to 125 +.  We frequently stepped off our shots to cross check our range estimation.  I recall on our last hunt stepping off 214 LONG steps on one of Charles's 22 LR shots with his Marlin 39A sighted with a Tasco 4 X 16.

I wonder if Fred would agree that "Power Certainly has It's Place but Is Not a Substitute for Marksmanship"?

There is a lot to be said about "SHOT PLACEMENT".

Much as I love shooting my .22 LTRs of various kinds, my advice to the OP would be to go ahead and get the CMP M1 NOW, while you still can. A year from now, or two, you'll still be able to buy and build up a LTR for little if any more than today's prices. I don't think it's as easy to say that about M1s. If you wait, you might miss the boat on that completely, or an M1 might cost substantially more than one does today.

Back in the '70s, I had the chance to buy a decent IHC Garand for about what two fairly nice .22 rifles would have cost me. I bought it (even though I didn't get a nice .22 until several years later) and I've never regretted that decision for one minute.

Well heck, he may be getting both anyway, so that is a WIN-WIN for sure.

Quote from: TwoGlock on January 02, 2008, 01:16:15 AM
I'm assuming that you do not presently own a rifle.

If learning marksmanship and shooting for recreation is your goal then I would suggest a 22 of some kind.  If Appleseed type of marksmanship is your goal, then you cannot do better than the Ruger 10/22.

Affirmative; I currently only own a single handgun.

Outside of taking a basic NRA rifle safety course and going plinking a couple of times with a .22 as a young teen; I have n hands-on experience with rifles. Which is rather embarrassing considering my family's history; my grandfather was a gunsmith with Olin, and Winchester for one. 

Learning proper marksmanship is the main reason I am here. I hope to make the most of my experience and learn as much as I can.

Quote from: The Guy on January 02, 2008, 01:09:26 AM
What I (me, and sugestion only!) would do is to get the LTR set up, and to start stocking up on all the 30-06 ammo I could afford.  It won't get cheaper any time soon, and it seems that the Garand is the way you want to go.  You will always be able to find a Garand somewhere for purchase, but the ammo will only be getting harder to find, and will rise in cost faster than inflation...

For that reason alone, perhaps a rifle chambered in another caliber would be a more sound investment for me?

I have researched this type of info. on several firearms related forums and seems there is no consensus; and the amount of differing perspectives really makes it difficult for us noobs.

From what Ive been reading rifles using 5.56 aren't considered true MBR's

Perhaps I'm just getting this all twisted.

I'm not particularly attached to getting an M1; it just happens to be the most cost effective solution for a "real" MBR, for me at this time.

I hope to have several rifles eventually; an LTR and an MBR just happen to be at the top of the list.

5.56 is an intermediate power round, between a service pistol and 7.62 NATO-class an MBR.
5.56, though smaller than 7.62, is accurate, used successfully in NRA High Power shooting to punch paper at 600 yds, and its terminal ballistics (stopping power) can be enhanced by selecting hunting ammunition or hollow points.  The cost of ammunition, cartridge weight, penetration, and cost of reloading are all less than 7.62 NATO. 
5.56 is firmly established here in the US, and is our current military cartridge, of course, not to mention a NATO standard round. 
5.56 rifles can be converted to fire 22 rimfire for around $150.  I think you'd be happy with a 5.56, and again it's my view that there's no wrong rifle for learning how to shoot.  ARs have superb ergonomics, are modular and adaptable, and easy for kids and ladies to shoot.   
I'd suggest you shoot M1A, Garand, AR, LTR, etcetera and see what you think of them prior to buying- I'm sure somebody near you would be able to meet you at a range or an Appleseed. 
What's interesting is that while the military can implement a vast array of heavy machine guns, crew served weapons, cannons, etcetera against vehicles, buildings and hard targets, the only implement an armed citizen may bring to bear against some national threat, like the contemplated Japanese invasion of our nation proper during WW2, is their personal firearm. 
It is my opinion that diligent, conscientious Americans should take it upon themselves to learn how to shoot rifles in order to be squared away prior to joining or being drafted into the military, mainly.  Second best reason, because it's less likely to happen than the previous, is that the private arms of the US population, and our will to use them, are both the deterrent to and the response to, foreign invasion.  I don't know how much warning we had prior to the outbreak of hostilities with Japan, but we learn from our history, as we did on 9/11, that world events take nasty, rapid turns, so we need to be ready at all times.  The third good reason to learn how to shoot is because the Founders saw an armed citizenry as the best guarantor of their liberty.  We may not swear oaths like police, soldiers and presidents to uphold and defend the Constitution, but nevertheless, that's our duty, too.  And a meaningful, concrete step in our defense of our nation and Constitution is our rifle marksmanship.  Now these are all excellent reasons, and I've ranked them by my idea of their likelihood of being needed. 
But for any, and for all of these, I'd like to commend you for what is your right, proper and American desire to learn how to shoot.  It's a pleasure to have people like you stepping on board- what regular people like you have done makes this whole effort worthwhile, and is the reason we're all here.         

perhaps one of the CMMG AR's from the bargain bin and a ceiner kit would beter suit you?

As for the AR not being a true MBR, yes and no.  It doesnt have the power of 308 or 30-06, thats for sure.  keep in mind though that it has been the main service weapon for all branches of the military for decades.  There are thousands of dead folks across the glode that will attest to its ability to kill when needed.  Everyone from Cooks to Special Forces carry a m4/m16 platformed weapon in 5.56.  Its still an effective round.  THe great thing about the AR is that it is very versital and modular.  I think thats why it is so popular.  You can upgrade it as money allows with almost no limitations.  And it is hard to beat for accurracy.  I maintain that the worst ARs will shoot as well as the best m1 latform weapons.