Project Appleseed

I have been looking into a Yugo M59/66A1 SKS. Just running cheap surplus stuff, how much accuracy could I expect at 100yds? 200yds? 250yds?

Blake

Better than 4 MOA.

I have experienced between 2 and 3 MOA.

I've seen people get pretty consistent hits at 600 yards with SKSes at Jericho, so certainly good enough for Appleseed work.

why not just go with an AR, in the end the ammo is always the main expense not the rifle so for reasonable accuracy it is logical to start with a better tool, if you are looking for a greater challenge shoot weak side, that is a great skill to have

The SKS rifle is certainly capable of better than 4 MOA accuracy.  Most rifles, in good condition, will get anywhere from 2-3 MOA.  The limiting factor is, by and large, the ammunition.

Most 7.62x39 on the market today (Wolf, Tula, Brown Bear etc.) are 'made for export' and quality control leaves a LOT to be desired.  My own testing found that bullet weights can vary by as much as 1-3 grains within the same box.  Powder weights similarly vary by as much as 2 grains.  Worse, the bullet diameters vary from .308 to .310".  The bore on the SKS/AK rifles is .310" nominal.   USA manufactured ammo features a .308" diameter bullet, which, as you may guess, does not do very well in the SKS or AK.

The best ammunition that I have found has been the Yugoslavian surplus ammo, followed by Golden Tiger, which is closely followed by Silver Bear.

I have hand-loaded ammunition which achieved 1.5 MOA from a Yugo SKS.  I used a .311" 150gr FMJ, and loaded it on top of 20.4gr of AA1680.  Velocity was right around 2200 FPS.  Never did test it beyond 200 yards, but with a 3" group (prone, w/ sling) at 200, I was happy.

The SKS has a few quirks that make it difficult to shoot a Rifleman score, all of which can be worked around:

• Does not readily accept a USGI sling, though one can be rigged to work
• Sight radius does not lend itself to precision shooting
• Front sight is ridiculously wide
• Trigger on most rifles is simply atrocious

    Judging by experience shooting thousands of rounds thru an SKS at competition out to 500 yards at the old Riverside Gun Club, at what is now called the RWVA Home Range, my experience with SKS rifles of that vintage was that they were highly accurate for "rifleman style" shooting.

     IIRC, we used the SKS issue sling as a hasty sling; the sight radius was fine for "rifleman" shooting, if not for "precision" shooting; the width of the front sight never bothersome (at least to me); and the triggers on rifles of the day were generally pretty decent.

     I have witnessed "fanning the popup" at 500 yards by an SKS-shooting rifleman.

     (Sorry, I have to speak up in defense of what, at least back in the early '90s, was a good "rifleman's rifle".)

At home I have 3 sks rifles ,,,yes I have "better" rifles  but when looking at cost of rifle and cost of ammo the sks stacks up pretty good , For a Rifleman it will do the job.

Wade

when the ammo was cheap the SKS was a good way to go, but you cannot pick up reload-able brass like you can with .223 and the projectile for 7.62 x 39 will cost as much as the 3 components of .223 + the AR is so easy to work on

It ain't the arrow, it's the Indian...

Quote from: George63 on April 25, 2011, 01:32:01 PM
when the ammo was cheap the SKS was a good way to go, but you cannot pick up reload-able brass like you can with .223 and the projectile for 7.62 x 39 will cost as much as the 3 components of .223 + the AR is so easy to work on

No offence, but I don't exactly have $1,000 for an AR.

If the 10/22 is the rimfire liberty rifle, the SKS is the centerfire one.  $200-250 less than half the price of a garand, and on fifth that of an M1A.  At $200 for 1200 rounds of yugo ammo, it is one heck of a deal.  Toss on tech sights and you are on your way to KD all day.

It is an impressive rifle for what it is, and once I could get over the whole commie thing, I was really impressed with it.  My only regret is the 10 round top fed system, but if we can all worship the 8 round garand feed, then this is no big deal.

It is cheap, accurate, effective, and for 4 moa and 500 yards, a very workable solution for someone on a budget.

I call that 2 extra rounds....  I love my M1's but the SKS was the first "MBR" I ever bought if you can call it that.  It will do the job and to echo itsansks, the variability of ammo will likely be the the biggest concern.

Blake,

See  SKS Based LTR  under Bank of Rifle Knowledge


LS

Quote from: Longshot on April 25, 2011, 11:22:11 PM
Blake,

See  SKS Based LTR  under Bank of Rifle Knowledge


LS

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=3305.0

Thanks LS!

After shooting mine with wolf for two days at my first AS; I was able to nail 2-3 moa groups at home...
Getting 'em on target was another story.  Never could get a consistant turkey neck/cheekweld. 

You should have seen the 'surplus' ammo used by some SKS shooters out at Rolla, last RBC....
So corroded, I wouldn't have fed it to an AK, but it was doin' the trick and hitting even at 600...

I don't have an SKS (never have, never will, too many other rifles to shoot as it is).

If I was looking to buy one the question I'd ask on this forum is -

How many riflemen here have shot rifleman scores on the AQT, at 25 meters and full distance?

I'm sure it can be done (most everything can if you want it bad enough and try hard/long enough).  I've seen several people bring an SKS to Appleseeds and to RBCS and so far I haven't seen folks get their rifleman scores with one.  Close, yeah, but not above 210 at 25 meters.

If someone has done it, or seen it done speak up and let us know if its more common than I've experienced.

Not to say the SKS won't do what it was designed to do, but it was never designed to be a "rifleman's rifle".  The cartridge, the rifle design and the manufacturing methods/materials for both did not take into account the same things the US military rifles have been designed/built to do for over 100 years.

Isn't the Yugo ammo corrosive?  If so be sure to do a thorough clean up after shooting it.  I use a black powder solvent called "Black Off" on my rifle (AR15) when I shoot it with combloc surplus ammo. Then clean and lube as I would any other rifle fired with non-corrosive ammo.  The last time I went to Ramseur for a field shoot the rifle was fired Saturday and when I pulled it out of the case Sunday morning it already had orange fungus (rust) growing on metal surfaces from the flash suppressor to the bolt carrier.  Many folks recommend starting the cleaning process at the range - I will in the future.

Good luck with yours.  If you stick with it you may be one of the first.

 I have a Soviet translation by a U.S. Army Major that stated the SKS, when fired by an expert shooter should group 4 shots within a 15 cm circle at 100 meters. If one of the 4 shots is way out it should be disregarded. If it doesn't group within 15 cm the second time it should be returned to the arms depot for repair. FYI.

As Fred stated above, The SKS is just fine for Rifleman work, and yes I have seen people shoot rifleman with them. The biggest issue with them is not the rifle it is as ItsanSKS stated, the ammo. I too have had the best luck with Golden Tiger

Quote from: George63 on April 25, 2011, 01:32:01 PM
when the ammo was cheap the SKS was a good way to go, but you cannot pick up reload-able brass like you can with .223 and the projectile for 7.62 x 39 will cost as much as the 3 components of .223 + the AR is so easy to work on

Good ammo is still only 16-23 cents per round  what does it cost to reload .223?? plus labor??? You could be dry firing instead of reloading. As for easy to work on.. it's hard to beat an SKS.

It is a shame that we have moved away from what the Appleseed Project began as. "A Rifleman can take any Rack Grade Rifle with Surplus Ammo, zero it, and shoot 4MOA Period"

Yet today we tell folks that it can't be done with their rifle you need this rifle 

Blake's question has technically been answered already..... 2-3 MOA is possible and 4 MOA is not out of the question at all. But excuse me while I address the tread drift (ie, You can't do it with Y, you need rifle X to be a Rifleman)

Are certain Rifles easier to obtain Rifleman over others.. yes. Are certain Rifles more challenging to obtain Rifleman... Obvious. Is this what we are here for??? NO, and Instructors and SB's should know better.

What would it cost to become a Rifleman, if you did not own a rifle or a single box of ammo??? Well with today's R.O.C. Program, all Appleseed fees would total $72.19 plus $20 for the RWVA Membership/R.O.C so $92.19 total Appleseed Fees.

The Rifles + Sling=
AR      $850 (atleast, more for a reliable one)
SKS    $280
-----------------
$570 difference



Decent Ammo (not match)
AR     $.33-.40 per round, 1000rd case of PMC Gold 55gr, $330

SKS  $.16- .23 per round, 1260 rd case of Yugo surplus $210 (per 1000 = $167)
----------------------------------------------
$163 per thousand difference

National Average of Appleseeds to achieve Rifleman = 3

Pre-Reg Fee + AR15 & Sling + Ammo for 3 Appleseeds
92.19 + 850 + 495 = $1437.19

Those numbers leave us $1065 for SKS Ammo, and seeing as the R.O.C. allows as many Appleseeds as needed to achieve Rifleman, how many Appleseeds can we go to with that much spare cash?? Well that covers 6656 rounds of ammo for the SKS, divide by 500 rounds per Appleseed... rounded down just to keep things simple...

13 SKS Appleseeds for the price of 3 AR Appleseeds....

I know I know... that's just crazy talk, who would go to 13 Appleseeds to hear over 4X the History and Heritage and see 4X the instruction from potentially 4X the Instructors providing 4X the tips and tricks and instruction, and meet 4X the great folks on the firing line.... That is crazy talk, because the SKS shooter, worst case scenario would probably have it done by the 5th, maybe the 6th shoot which leaves this frugal shooter enough dough to buy a Rack Grade M1 from the CMP, and still be under the cost for the AR Rifleman!

But wait there's more......

That SKS Rifleman who now proudly owns a CMP Garand, can borrow the AR Rifleman's Rifle, and after shooting a 210 with the SKS, shoot a 240 with the AR that is not theirs (of course after that one shot zero).. probably a 230 with his new to him M1 Garand as well.

But that AR Rifleman on the other hand is out of ammo, but he can borrow the SKS Rifleman's Rifle after scoring 210 with their own AR, and shoot a 160 with the SKS.... and maybe a 180 with his new friends Garand.

What is our goal Appleseed Instructors and SB's??? Tell folks that it can't be done? Or make Rifleman regardless of the Rifle? Who is the better Rifleman? the Fella that score 210 with an "out of the cosmoline" SKS or an AR with optimal sights and a decent trigger??

Which Shooter will hear more of the History and Heritage? Isn't that more important than seeing how fast one can score Rifleman???

For $50 more than a 10/22 (or a $100 less the way some feel the 10/22 HAS TO BE), the SKS is a great centerfire capable of getting the job done not only on an AQT, but putting Bambi on the plate as well!! So don't hesitate buying an SKS to Appleseed with, and if you already own one, what are you waiting for? And of course check out the thread LS and Techres mentioned... http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=3305.0

See you on the trail....

QuoteIt is a shame that we have moved away from what the Appleseed Project began as. "A Rifleman can take any Rack Grade Rifle with Surplus Ammo, zero it, and shoot 4MOA Period"

An EXCELLENT point...way too many people are hung up on "hardware", instead of "software"..I've been guilty of that myself!

BTW...I have an SKS, and with the right mags it's a very dependable, predictable rifle.

Great.  I'm glad somebody has seen somebody do it.  I'm not promoting match grade AR15's.  I'm saying the SKS is not (cartridge, sights, etc.) something people find easy to shoot a rifleman score with.

In the 1890's the best riflemen of the day could shoot a 10 shot group of 12 inches at 1000 yds.  However, the rifles were single shot rifles and the mid range trajectory of many of those black powder cartridges was 55 (fifty five) feet.  How'd you like to shoot one of those at the pop ups?

I've seen guys who earned their rifleman patches with their M1 Garands, M1A's and 10/22's just aggravate the snot out of themselves trying to do it with a SKS at a rifleman's boot camp.

Sure a guy who gets lucky enough to find a good shooting SKS and good ammo deserves congratulations for working hard enough to shoot a rifleman's score with it.  Has he learned more than if the score was shot with an M1, M1A or 10/22?  Did he pick up an IiT had sooner, get his red hat sooner?  Get on the trail sooner?

All rifles are fun to shoot, some are more fun and more capable.  I understand the thrill of "scaring" someone with a high dollar rifle when you've got a 'beater' rifle.  I get a kick out of the kids with the 10/22 out shooting the adults with the AR15's, M1's, etc.

I also don't blow smoke you know where when someone asks a question.  Just ask anyone at work.

Not blowing smoke at all OD,

The rifle can do it, we need to quit telling people that they need something special to get the job done.. It is total BS. I have seen a Mosin Nagant do it, and I have seen SKS's do it. YOUR JOB as an Instructor/Shootboss is to see that they do it..... With their Rifle, not a $1000 dollar 10/22 "loaner" or $1500 AR!

The entire course of fire is based on a bolt action 30-06, quit making excuses for your shooters, and teach them to shoot.

Quote from: Garand69 on April 26, 2011, 08:35:45 PM
The entire course of fire is based on a bolt action 30-06, quit making excuses for your shooters, and teach them to shoot.

Git-R-Done! 

American bolt action rifles firing a cartridge steeped in battle and honor where both the rifle and cartridge were designed to allow hits on human targets to the limit of a rifleman's eye sight and beyond.

Rifles designed and built to be reliable and accurate.  Not designed to throw out a high volume of fire in the general area of where you're getting ready to try to over run people unable to shoot back because bullets are digging up the dirt all around them.

$1000 10/22's.  Darn, I guess my $125 used 10/22 just don't measure up.  Crashkid2K probably doesn't think so since he used it one time to "break the ice" and put him over the top on the 25 meter AQTs.

Don't get all bent out of shape over what rifle is or isn't better.  I just hate to see people encouraging someone to stick it out when they might be able to get it done quicker with a better rifle.  Like I said, maybe he's got a good one.  Maybe he'll shoot a rifleman score with it pretty quickly.  If so that's great.  My experience in watching some guys who are now redhats and SI's is that they spent quite a bit of time trying to shoot a rifleman score with an SKS after they'd already done it with two or three other rifles.  So they weren't inexperienced, they weren't new shooters, they weren't trying to learn the fundamentals, they just found out that the SKS they had did not perform like their USGI rack grade rifles.

My Chinese SKS cost $79 in 1985.  It'll make nice cloverleafs at 25m, is dependable as anything in my safe, has a decent trigger.  Yes, the stock sights make it challenging, but tech-sights (or a scope for it) are  great investments for an inexpensive platform.  BTW, it ain't for sale.  Get your own...
-sg

Give the stock SKS a shot. If you get through a thousand rounds without hitting 210, spend $50 on a set of tech sights.

One of the best things about an SKS is that they're easy to sell. If it doesn't work for you, take it to a gun show - you won't even get out of the parking lot before someone tries to buy it from you. Take it to a shoot and you'll have it sold before the weekend is out. Whether you keep it or not, you'll know all about the SKS, which is handy knowledge. The rifle is not a waste of your time or money.

I've shot a 25-meter rifleman score with a 10/22 and my M1A, both with Irons. I'd love to try it with a tech-sight equipped SKS.

I've seen Dinky Dao tear stuff up at 300 yards with a bone stock SKS.

BD

Yeah, the tech sights are a good idea.  Also, contact/PM Son of Martha and ask about the modification he made to the sling attachment points on an SKS to allow the use of a GI web sling (looked easy to do and it worked). 

Seems like at one time, when the SKS's were first getting popular, you could get a modification done to your rifle to allow the use of AK47 magazines (20 and 30 round).  Don't know if its legal in your state or not or if anyone is selling the parts/doing the work.

Quote from: Old Dog on April 27, 2011, 06:23:48 AM
Yeah, the tech sights are a good idea.  Also, contact/PM Son of Martha and ask about the modification he made to the sling attachment points on an SKS to allow the use of a GI web sling (looked easy to do and it worked). 

Seems like at one time, when the SKS's were first getting popular, you could get a modification done to your rifle to allow the use of AK47 magazines (20 and 30 round).  Don't know if its legal in your state or not or if anyone is selling the parts/doing the work.

We've got an AWB, so detachable mags would would limit you to one "evil" feature (pistol grip, collapsible stock, bayonet lug, flash hider, grenade launcher) - since your stock Yugo has more than one of those, you'd need to do some additional modification.  I wouldn't worry about the mag too much though, the clips for those work very easily.  Bone stock it's a fine rifle, and an excellent starting point.

I picked up an old SKS practically for free a couple years ago. My son wanted a CF to shoot at KD Appleseeds, so I made it a LTR project. It started out with a really bad trigger, so we got that tuned up, added tech-sights, Tapco stock and magazines, and put a GI sling on it.

With Silver Bear ammo he was making consistent hits out to 400 yds. It really will shoot now.

Prior to the improvements, it was difficult to get 8MOA out of it. I've got another SKS, and it shoots pretty well, but some of these commie guns are really not put together too well, and it shows downrange.

My 2 cents or IMHO for the younger ones, good solid rifle that works. Accuracy is sub 4 MOA, "quick digression" My cushion in Arkansas has chosen His SKS as his "go to" rifle for hunting. Fast lightweight and more than acceptable accuracy. With the low cost of Econo 7.62X39 ammo you should be able to afford several brands to find the one that works best for You.