Project Appleseed

AR15 Malfunction - Base of round over bolt

What is the proper technique to clear this malfunction?






This is a Noveske AR15 that was on the line at Poolville, TX on Sunday March 26, 2011. It was taken off the line when the malfunction could not be cleared. The photo was taken later at a separate location.

This malfunction is believed to have occurred after the shooter fired 2 rounds, bolt locked back and a fresh mag inserted.

Starfox used the "slam the butt on the ground while pulling the charging handle" technique in an effort to clear it. That method did move the bolt back about 1 inch but he could not get it to move back any further.

Since the bolt was open and unlocked I suggested using a cleaning rod through the bore and onto the bolt face - hammering lightly on the cleaning rod handle, but the shooter did not want us to expend more effort on it.

Stick your middle finger up through the mag well and push the bolt back.  No tools, no damage, takes 5 seconds.



hat-tip boltgun71

Quote from: Chainsaw on March 30, 2011, 02:01:44 PM
Stick your middle finger up through the mag well and push the bolt back.  No tools, no damage, takes 5 seconds.



hat-tip boltgun71

If mortaring did not work it is well beyond finger pressure, I would put a pry bar in the mag well (prying against some wood shims would avoid marks) In an emergency, mortar it harder ( it either runs or is a club)

Chainsaw is correct.

Lock the charging handle in the forward position, and stick a digit up through the mag well and push back on the bolt face.  The round should fall right out.  If you need more strength to push the bolt back, use a screwdriver or something similar to push the bolt to the rear through the ejection port.

The key is to make sure the charging handle is in the forward position, as the malfunction is caused by the round overriding the bolt and getting caught between the bolt carrier key and the front of the charging handle.  Mortaring the rifle while holding the charging handle to the rear will do nothing to fix this malfunction, actually just make it worse, as the round is caught between the charging handle and bolt assembly.  You need to create space beween the front of the charging handle and bolt assembly by locking the charging handle in the forward position and pushing the bolt assembly to the rear.

I've cleared this malfunction 100 times and used only a finger through the mag well.

Quote from: boltgun71 on March 30, 2011, 03:25:33 PM
Chainsaw is correct.

Yes, he is.

Excellent. Having the charging handle forward now makes perfect sense. 

Thanks! 

Multi-tools work very well for pushing the bolt back as well:

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=6989.msg64584#msg64584

MOGromit

Sometimes you get a similar malfunction, where a round wedges in with the gas tube, and also locks the charging handle up (I thought that was the case in Poolville). I mentioned how to clear that malfunction in a reply to that IAAR. It isn't pretty.

I did try to force the bolt back via the ejector port and I'm fairly certain the charging handle either would not move fully forward, or was already engaged fully forward.  I did not reach up through the mag well however. 

The problem was the round is far enough up that the case head is in contact with the charging handle and the shoulder is also caught behind the charging handle.

I know the shooter personally, so we can try this method recommended.

Hmmm....

I guess I never tried the brute force method of using a pry-tool.  If I recall correctly, last time I saw this, I ended up taking the upper reciever off. 

Anyway, just thinking as to the cause of this malfucntion.

Would it be oversized/bad feed lips?  Causing the top round to pop out and over the bolt as the mag is slammed in?  IIRC; last time was durring a mag change too.

Quote from: AFTERMATH on March 30, 2011, 06:52:29 PM
Hmmm....

I guess I never tried the brute force method of using a pry-tool.  If I recall correctly, last time I saw this, I ended up taking the upper reciever off. 

Anyway, just thinking as to the cause of this malfucntion.

Would it be oversized/bad feed lips?  Causing the top round to pop out and over the bolt as the mag is slammed in?  IIRC; last time was durring a mag change too.

That is what I envisioned the cause to be - a round somehow jumping the feedlips.

The mags in use were Magpul P-mags.

Quote from: AFTERMATH on March 30, 2011, 06:52:29 PM
I guess I never tried the brute force method of using a pry-tool.  If I recall correctly, last time I saw this, I ended up taking the upper reciever off. 

Anyway, just thinking as to the cause of this malfucntion.

Would it be oversized/bad feed lips?  Causing the top round to pop out and over the bolt as the mag is slammed in?  IIRC; last time was durring a mag change too.

Yeah, I'm really don't like the thought of jacking around with metal tools inside a rifle's chamber. 

One thing I did notice is the shooter consistently used the charging handle to chamber the first round.  I'm not sure if that played a part,  but obviously countless feeding problems can be due to riding the bolt forward.  I always use the bolt release on my AR.

I can't resist the urge to be a turd...

Dump the high-end AR and get a real battle rifle....  M1 Garand, M14, FAL, or  HK91.  Of course the Garand and M14's reciprocating charging handle makes it fairly easy to clear any malf.

-David
Edgewood, NM

Quote from: NMMI9100 on March 30, 2011, 10:49:35 PM
I can't resist the urge to be a turd...

Dump the high-end AR and get a real battle rifle....  M1 Garand, M14, FAL, or  HK91.  Of course the Garand and M14's reciprocating charging handle makes it fairly easy to clear any malf.

-David
Edgewood, NM

Well, I've had an M1 bolt lock in a closed but out of battery position that literally took me standing on the handle to get it open. I've seen a bootcamp student bring 3 FAL's to an RBC and by the end of the week those rifles had been assembled and reassembled in almost every configuration to keep one working. My personal experience with HK91's is that they are dependable but their sighting systems (like that of the FAL) leave alot to be desired when working at "Rifle" ranges.  Finally short people like me find that the silly box on the bottom of the M14 gets in the way of our support hand.

While my 1955 H&R M1  is a favorite, I don't feel undergunned with my scoped M4gery or HBAR. They're accurate out to 460 yards and I've handed them to shooters as their first centerfire experience at a boot camp and seen them do VERY well.

My personal go to rifle right now is an 03a3. It can get the job done. Field shooting the 03a3 is a pleasure and once you learn the sights, your rifle and ammunition, you can use it to score well on the popup range or on paper.

BTW Once you've been taught how to deal with it by Boltgun71, the bolt riding over the case is not a big deal.

Thanks for that lesson BG71.

Didn't mean to offend those with the poodle shooters.... My wife has an AR.  My 11 year old has one.  And my 6 year old has one too.

I put a lot of value in reciprocating charging handles...hence I have one HRA M1, one Springfield M1, and one LRB M14SA. 

My FALs have Israeli charging handles.  They don't reciprocate but they're pretty tough.

Glad ya'll figured out how to fix that $1500+ Noveske AR malf.

-David
Edgewood, NM

This malfunction is primarily caused by 'whacking' the magazine to ensure lockup in the mag well.   This action is normally required when inserting a magazine into a rifle whose bolt is closed.  When done on a rifle with the bolt open, the top round(s) will jar loose from the magazine, and when the bolt is released, will cause all sorts of problems. 

At the recent boot camp here in FL, one of our shooters experienced this problem on multiple occasions- always on stages 2 & 3, and always with round #3.  Observed her through stage 2, noticed her 'whacking' the magazine home, and told her to stop- inspect the chamber, and whaddya know?  That first round had been partially dislodged from the magazine, and was just waiting to jam up the rifle. 

Stopped 'whacking' the magazine, and voila! no more problems... 

Quote from: boltgun71 on March 30, 2011, 03:25:33 PM
Chainsaw is correct.

Lock the charging handle in the forward position, and stick a digit up through the mag well and push back on the bolt face.  The round should fall right out.  If you need more strength to push the bolt back, use a screwdriver or something similar to push the bolt to the rear through the ejection port.

The key is to make sure the charging handle is in the forward position, as the malfunction is caused by the round overriding the bolt and getting caught between the bolt carrier key and the front of the charging handle.  Mortaring the rifle while holding the charging handle to the rear will do nothing to fix this malfunction, actually just make it worse, as the round is caught between the charging handle and bolt assembly.  You need to create space beween the front of the charging handle and bolt assembly by locking the charging handle in the forward position and pushing the bolt assembly to the rear.

I've cleared this malfunction 100 times and used only a finger through the mag well.

"Word"

umm,,,get a hammer