Project Appleseed

tested some loads and working up to right fps  5 shot groups for test veritable is 49 fps  ,,for long distance I think that will be to much ,,powder is within 1/10 of a grain  spot on rcbs scale ,,,brass hxp  ,, I am thinking brass prep ? or am I going to have to get match brass ?


Yea I know this is not Appleseed shooting , but where else am I going to ask and get a good answer.

TIA

Wade

bullet weight, cold vs. hot bore. If in the summer keeping the rounds cool (ie under white towel. etc could help). temp and hunity variations.

But my  gut tells me that  max spread of 49fps is probably better than most commercial ammo, including match ammo.

try using the hornady ballitics calculator to determine moa differences.


http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator

running the differences between 2601 and 2650 for a 150gr speer with a bc of .389. I get

2601     18.4 moa at 600   31.2 at 800 and 48.2 at 1000

2650     17.6 at 600   29.8 at 800 and   46.2 at 1000

so the result is 2moa or less variation out to 1000

ymmv, batteries not included


Mike

Quote from: jmdavis on December 21, 2010, 03:10:51 PM
bullet weight, cold vs. hot bore. If in the summer keeping the rounds cool (ie under white towel. etc could help). temp and hunity variations.

But my  gut tells me that  max spread of 49fps is probably better than most commercial ammo, including match ammo.

try using the hornady ballitics calculator to determine moa differences.


http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator

running the differences between 2601 and 2650 for a 150gr speer with a bc of .389. I get

2601     18.4 moa at 600   31.2 at 800 and 48.2 at 1000

2650     17.6 at 600   29.8 at 800 and   46.2 at 1000

so the result is 2moa or less variation out to 1000

ymmv, batteries not included


Mike

You meen 2 inches at 1000 yards ? 2 moa @ 1000 yards would be 20 inches  ,,with korean milsurp m-2 ball I have seen 1.7 moa,,,I have not yet chronyed a group of that perhaps I should,,,,,getting used to haveing and using a chrony so I can do some good reloading .
Thank you

2 inches at 1000 yards is not going to meen all that much at my current skill level,,,Thanks again


Wade

Wade,


It is 2 MOA so it is 20 inches. But are you shooting HXP at 1000 yards with 150 gr. bullets?

If you are paying attention to details, and it sound like you are. The 49fps variation is not a problem out to 500 or so.

Wade, yep, we all do the reloading stuff for different reasons. I do the chrony thing only to "see" where it's at and look at the SD numbers, not the actual FPS differences. Other then that, I look at the groups. If I'm geting 3/4 MOA out of one load and 3 out of another, all the other numbers don't matter. You didn't say what you are shooting, 50fps out of a 1000 fps load/caliber is a lot more significant than 50 fps at 4000 fps....O.L.

I can't tell you a thing about velocity variation round to round (never spent money on a chronograph).

I can tell you that every rifle is different.  What shoot good in someone else's rifle may not shoot in yours.  What caliber, what powder, etc. are you using.

I'll also say that at one time my rifles (M1A and 03A4) got the worst groups with Speer bullets, better with Hornady and the best groups with Sierra bullets.

My rifles also like slow burning powders (okay in the 03A4, broke the op rod in the M1A twice before I gave up on them for that rifle).

Lots of things can affect your variation
powder/charge weight consistency
internal case volume
choice of primers
neck tension of the case on the bullet

I never used temp. sensitive powders (I'm an IMR guy speaking from the old days and IMR powders gave me the best groups in all my rifles - .30 caliber and .223) so I can't speak to issues with those other than what I read.

Consistency give you good groups.  For that matter, sometimes (according to what I read) a rifle/load will give surprising groups in spite of greater fps variation than a load with a tighter standard deviation in fps variance.

You are "getting to know" your rifle better and that is a good thing.

Working up a load using hxp brass (I may switch to ka korean brass) powder varget ,primer cci lr,  bullet hornady 178 gr amax.
the resone I think of switching to the korean brass in that with the korean ammo I have seen 1.7 moa at 1000 yards  with it in my m-1  my goal is 1000 yards,,I am learning to reload properly  and going to do the best that I can , I may have to go to match brass I am just hopeing I don't have to ,,,,,,right now its test to get to right fps  .

Wade

My thoughts on this are...

Find the best load/group for your current rifle and then start to tweak the variables one at a time. ( That way you can trace the changes to one thing)

Good groups...try different primers with that load
OAL??? Try changing that. (You didn't say if it was a magazine fed...this makes a difference as length is limited by mag. Allow .010" to clear mag) If a bolt gun try different seating lengths...ie> touching the lands, .005" off the lands, .010" off the lands. Bullet jump can make or break the accuracy factor.
Crimping??? I suggest not to crimp. That way bullet release is consistant. Uniform neck thickness can help with grip on the bullet and consistant release.
Long range shooters do a lot of case prep to get consistant brass. But this is in bolt guns tweaked for accuracy. A battle rifle cannot hope to equal their results.( Aaah, there you started one , Sparks)
Weighing cases to see if they are same or close??? Can make a difference too. Culling brass by weight is something precision shooters will do, making sure their weight falls within close tolerances. Something about a heavier case is a smaller cylinder and so the same powder charge in it will boost pressure above other lighter cases. Hence your fps will be higher with that round.

Too many factors to get into... you just have to start to eliminate some of the variables. Which is what makes long range accuracy maddening and fun.

I shoot some winter league stuff out to 500yd with a Savage 10 FCP in 6.5 Grendel. Most the others are shooting their 1000yd guns that are customed out and with Hubbel telescopes that can see bullet holes at 500 yds. Their loading proceedures are a science and involve spendy tools , but boy do they shoot some small groups at any range.
ALL these guys weigh their powder to the exact weight, BTW, so you are doing that right.
Keep  us informed

Rifle is m-1 Garand  it has put out 1.7 moa groups when I do my part ( and thats with korean ka 73 m-2 ball)  barrle is a 1965 trigger group shimed up for proper lock up , barrel penned so the front sight is allways in the right place (ie  gas tube does not rattle about) standred nylon web sling  GI sights ,,I weight the brass I shot,, found it to be from 192 gr to 200 gr also before loading next wieght brass to matching exact for 3 shot groups group 1 195.0 group 2 195.5,,,,, exact powder charge in bolth groups, will see what i get tomorrow ,, still working upto  right fps for 1000 yars with the garand ,,,,,and I do have a bolt gun for this(savage fp 10 tactical .308 with mil line  3x9 scope)  but I think that would be to easy beside's I don't like the trigger its to light .
o yea trying to get muzzel fps of 2500/2550 so it will stay subsonic at 1000 yard's, can't go much faster then that by the book with 178gr amax and varget powder,,,,and yes powder is exact to 1/10 of a grain spot on
Wade

 Wade...my 10FCP is also a .308. Just had to do the Grendel with it. Only broke in the .308 and then switched barrels. .308 is waiting for the day to get back on the rifle, but it did shoot nice little cloverleafs at 200yds with 168 SMK's.

BTW...my trigger was too light also. Found out when it's in cold weather for a few hours the sear will not set...something to do with the accu-trigger. Had to set it at about 2lbs for reliability. Guess I can tune it lighter for summer months. Hah.

I ran into some very exact research on pressure (fps) variance done by some bench rest guys. They determined that between powder, primer, case and projectile the primer caused the most deviation. The best way to reduce the variance caused by the primer is reducing the power of the primer so the bench rest type primers are the least powerful. This makes them poorly suited for ball powders especially in cold weather. To wring out the best performance with standard components weight sort the brass to 1 gr batches, bullets to .1 gr, use stick powder to + or - .05 gr and try different primers maybe bench rest but for 30-06 I doubt BR primers would do well

I used Federal large rifle bench rest primers in my .308 and 30.06 for several years until I read somewhere that they were "bad" for this type of rifle.

I no longer use them since I live somewhere that I can buy other brands/types and I found out for my rifle they didn't really help much.

They (Fed. BR primers) never had any problem igniting IMR 4350 powder, even in compressed loads in those two calibers.

Primers for reloads should be treated like .22 rimfire ammo for your LTR.  Buy a box or two of different brands/types and try them to find out what works best for you in your rifle.

Wade, I hope I didn't go through this thead too fast, but what do YOU consider long range? NRA says it is 800 yards or farther.

Also, there is nothing "magical" about match brass. If you are interested in a consistant load for 800 yards, your brass, and bullets all need to be weighed and segregated into groups of the same weight, and then loaded with a suitable powder weighed for consistancy. As far as the brass, it doesn't matter if it is HXP, LC, FC, or whatever as long as the prepped brass weighs the same, which means the internal volume is the same in all the cases. Match primers are a given.

All the ammo loading steps you take is wasted though, unless a premium, air gauged, hand lapped barrel is used. A GI or factory barrel won't get it for long range.

BTW, I don't have the guts to try to shoot an M1 at 1000 yards, for that I shoot my Kreiger barreled 40X in .308.

If I were going to go to the trouble of weighing/segregating brass (and I have a time or two years ago) I'd resize it, trim it and weigh it (at the time I also turned the neck down).  That way you know the outside size is the same, the length is the same so the internal volume has to be pretty close when the brass weight is close.