Project Appleseed

Can't seem to find any existing threads regarding night vision scopes.  Does anyone have any experience with them, good bad otherwise?  Looks like some decent deals on Gen 1 scopes but without trying one out it seems risky based on the cost.  Thanks

You're right about that.  I haven't been to an after dark Appleseed yet.

They cost a lot of money.  They're heavy/bulky.  You can't buy one at WalMart or the local gun store.

You'd be better off going to a forum like arfcom (ar15.com) and searching there as it seems like those guys (some of them anyway) own one or more copies of just about anything that goes bang or fits on anything that goes bang.

I've only used the old Army night vision scopes (Vietnam era) and they were "cool" at the time but way obsolete vs. the present (and very expensive in my view) night vision scopes.

On the other hand some very good rifle scopes will allow you to do amazing things under low light conditions.  A combination of objective lens diamter and coatings that allow light to pass through the lens can give you an unreal view of the world after lights out.

There is a thought, a Low Light course of Fire. Modified "Hits Count..." target. Possible. Will try it next year

The scopes can be very useful if used the right way. wearing them and adding an IR aiming laser is very effective. Gen 1 is good enough for Most uses. Ensure the scope has brightness controls though. I have seen them without and they get very bright.

Let me second the advice on Arfcom -- lots of folks over there who've spent time and money thinking about this stuff.

For my own opinion -- I've spent a great deal of time with night vision equipment in scenario paintball, including helmet-mounted night vision, infrared weapon sights, and high-powered IR illuminators, and equipment from Gen 1 to Gen 3.  I've also done scientific research with thermal imagers.  Before getting into night vision you should take a very hard look at what you want to do with it. 

If you're serious, for almost everyone I recommend against a weapon sight.  First of all, there may be a legal issue depending on where you live -- IR-emitting "sniper scopes" cannot be attached to a firearm in California, and it's questionable if this applies to passive-only or thermal sights.  I Am Not A Lawyer, do not construe anything I say as legal advice, just be careful and know the laws.

Second, if your night vision is a weapon sight you are unlikely to use it for anything else.  It's not a good idea to point a firearm at something just because you want to look at it.  Weapon sights are for shooting.

Third, inexpensive IR weapon sights will perform poorly in daylight.  The Gen 1 scopes have a pinhole cover for use in daylight and even this use should be done sparingly.  The pinhole produces parallax and will make zeroing your rifle very difficult.  Also, if you plan to use this rifle in daylight, you'll need to take off the night-vision scope, and even the best quick-release mounts are not as solid or predictable as a solid one-piece that never moves.

The alternative, what I usually recommend instead, is to go with a head-mounted IR system, and put compatible sights on your rifles.  Irons and scopes will work poorly but both EOTech and Aimpoint make fine sights that work well with night vision.  Then you can set up your rifle and zero it in the daylight, and you don't have to mess with it at night.  Simple.

The cheaper Gen I night-vision scopes can still be useful for hunting, provided you keep it within about 50-100 yards or so, and provided you're away from white lights.  Eyeballs reflect the IR beam brightly.  Beyond that range you're not going to have a good enough image, or enough confidence in your zero, to take a confident shot.  In paintball I used night vision almost exclusively as a spotter rather than a sight, and if you're going to do that, hand-held or head-mount is superior and cheaper.

Personally I don't use night vision in my kit (apart from paintball).  I put my optics money into a very nice set of binoculars, red-dot sights, and a weapon light for the rare situation too dark for those to work.  These do practically the same thing, except I can use them all the time, I can train with them easier, and they break less often and use much fewer batteries!

Best of all, you can use binocs and red dots at an Appleseed.  Night vision, not unless it gets dark before you're done cleaning up!

Hope that helps.  Now back to bailing... and staying on mission... 

20 years ago I put a $2500 NV scope on a $69 SKS. Worked perfect for what I needed, short range night varmint control.

Today that scope probably sells for $500 or less.  It was good to about 150 yards with a good IR illuminator.

If I was going to equip a special purpose rifle today I'd opt for one of the hybrid thermal imagers.

Not much use for one at an AS though.

Had my eye on the ATN MK390 for nocturnal pest control.  $400 seems reasonable since I end up spending far more than that in rodent damages.  Thanks for the thoughts.

I can't understand why the prices haven't come down on NV like they do with all other types of electronics........

Hey All,

Just my .02 on this subject...  I have a 2gen night scope from ATN and I like it.... I don't love it but I do like it. I hope I don't stick my foot in my mouth but I can see and hit a milk jug at about 150yds with just starlight and a bit of moon light. I can not see anything without it so I'd say it works pretty well. It was a pain to sight in though the pin hole but if you do it at night it goes alot smoother.
Bottom line. For the money I spent...I like it. and it could fill a need.
LIVEFREEUSA

I'd love to do a reduced light Appleseed.  Me and a couple of other folks (that happen to wear orange hats) often play in the pitch black at one of our ranges in a deep dark valley in the middle of nowhere.  We do a lot of ambient light shooting, as well as playing with lights. 

Man, that'd be awesome. An all black rifleman patch with "rifleman" and the flag in dark gray. 

Be an interesting challenge to clear rifles without frazzling everyone's night vision though.  It could be done with a red lens I think.

Couldn't you clear them by "feel"?  You can "feel" the mag is out, you can "feel" the bolt is back, you can "feel" its on safe, you can "feel" the chamber flag is in and you can "feel" its on the mat.

You need to be sure the folks you do this with will not forget and handle the rifle in the dark before the start of the prep. period.

We did some night stuff at the RBC in Feb. 2007 and again in Jun 2007.  I don't know if they still do it or not.  Not shooting for a score, just shooting some targets under low light conditions and with improvised lights and some just looking to see what we could see at different distances from the firing line.

It can be a real "eye opener".

Quote from: Old Dog on December 20, 2010, 11:28:22 PM
Couldn't you clear them by "feel"?  You can "feel" the mag is out, you can "feel" the bolt is back, you can "feel" its on safe, you can "feel" the chamber flag is in and you can "feel" its on the mat.

You need to be sure the folks you do this with will not forget and handle the rifle in the dark before the start of the prep. period.

We did some night stuff at the RBC in Feb. 2007 and again in Jun 2007.  I don't know if they still do it or not.  Not shooting for a score, just shooting some targets under low light conditions and with improvised lights and some just looking to see what we could see at different distances from the firing line.

It can be a real "eye opener".

I've done more shooting in the dark than the average bear.  And yes, it's "eye opening" to be sure.  Just kind of seems like a safety nightmare in all but the most strictly controlled conditions.  It'd be hard to keep track of where everyone is for example using AS's SOP.  Would you be able to see the line?  Would you be able to see if anyone's wandered downrange?  Those would all be challenges that would have to be addressed.  Not impossible, mind you.  But they'd have to be dealt with.

Boy would I love it though.  I think everyone should shoot in the dark.  (safely)  It's something most people never consider.  And it's chock full of challenges, all of which can be overcome.

Quote from: siglite on December 20, 2010, 11:23:00 PM
I'd love to do a reduced light Appleseed.  Me and a couple of other folks (that happen to wear orange hats) often play in the pitch black at one of our ranges in a deep dark valley in the middle of nowhere.  We do a lot of ambient light shooting, as well as playing with lights. 

Man, that'd be awesome. An all black rifleman patch with "rifleman" and the flag in dark gray. 

Be an interesting challenge to clear rifles without frazzling everyone's night vision though.  It could be done with a red lens I think.

Wow, what did I start.......Well, to add to that idea we could add the phrase, "Rifle marksmanship never sleeps"   Naw, maybe not. 

You could just run a reduced Line. Say 2 firers per iteration. Keep everyone else off the line grouped up with an instructor. That would keep the safety high and not fry everyone's night vision.

Now back on your Heads.

You know, I see nothing in the Instructor manual that says Applseed has to be shot during daylight hours.   

   YES I WANT THE BLACK PATCH     And yes I agree it would be a safety nightmare (no pun intended) but it could be done! A red light on the line and dark targets or just turn on the red light after the string of fire, clear the line check targets, prep, turn off the red light and use the "F" word. fun fun fun

I would like to post an update regarding my recent experience with a Gen 1 ATN MK390. 
After paying $499.99 from Amazon the unit showed up in 3 days as advertised.  I was initially impressed with the quality of construction although the weight was substantial.  I understand that these scopes are all heavy, mine was a little over 3lbs not counting the IR illuminator which was included and mounts on a small picattany rail on the top of the scope.
The biggest problem that I encountered was the lack of mounting adjustments.  The rail on the rifle that I was intending to use this on was 6" long, probably standard for most rifles. After mounting the scope, the rubber eyepiece sat 3" forward from the recoil pad.  Now I don't need to tell you the problems with that since if you are reading this you are already aware of the whole turkey neck concept.  In this case it's more like reverse turkey neck.  Awkward to say the least and very rough to produce accurate shots.

Now after all of this I would like to point out that if you have a rifle with an extended picatanny rail like the newer M4 carbines do then pushing the mounting position forward is not an issue. 

The overall performance with the ATN MK390 was not worth the price in my humble opinion.
I sent the unit back for a refund on Monday and I picked up a quality 30mm scope with an illuminated reticle to replace it.  Thanks for all the thoughts and advise.