Project Appleseed

From what I have heard (YMMV), Rimfire never made the parts.  They were made by a company called Diversified Innovative Products (DIP Inc.)  that was in the same complex and then sold by Rimfire.

http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/marlin/82869-marlin-60-795-accessories-6.html#post1243051


They have now separated.  Try here.

http://www.diproductsinc.com/Products.aspx?CAT=3603

Thanks!  Just ordered one for my Grandson's 795

Craig
[/quote]

a)   Better stock ie. ATI (if they complete it) or something wooden or stronger, less flexible plastic, heavier.  Adjustable in length and height for different people.

b)   Better sights similar to or just  Tech Sights.

c)   With swivels/buckles quick release.

d)   With USGI sling

e)   Two extra mag's for a total of Three.

f)   Metal trigger guard as the plastic one cracks and better access to the mag release.

g)   Drop free mag's as currently it is quite stiff.

h)   Improved scope mount - A Weaver/Picatinny type to prevent forward creep.

i)   Easier, more straight forward dis-assembly for cleaning.

j)   Better trigger.  Improved weight and less creep and clean break.  I can't even feel/hear the reset on mine.

Anything else people would like to see improved ?

As no one has added to the list below.  I might as well add.

If you really want anything to change, then you need to contact Marlin.  Nothing will change if no one actually does anything about it.

Talk about Appleseed.  Provide the web address.  Maybe even a link to this forum thread.

All I have is their snail mail address from the web site.

Send Mail to:
Marlin Firearms
P.O. Box 1871
Madison, NC 27025

Remember, Appleseed wouldn't have happened if  'Fred'  and some of his buddies just shot the breeze and didn't actually do anything. 

Considering the extra money I have spent on upgrades, the postage, the hours research, talking on these threads, even at a liberal $15/hour is equivalent to at least 10 times the rifle cost.  Multiple that by 1000 people and that's a lot of extra parts, a lot of wasted shipping costs, a ton of wasted manhours.

If you want to see a   'Appleseed ready'   Marlin out of the box, even if it costs double, then write or call Marlin.  Be specific on what is needed (see below).  Add or delete what you personally think is right and let Marlin do THEIR job with market evaluation and figures.  They are a business, and that's what they do as part of their business.

I bought a second hand 795 a couple months ago when I started AS.  I really like it but when I put the Tech-Sights on I had the same problem with the dovetail being canted.  I also went to Dicks and Academy Sports to look at the 795s that they had and every one was canted.  There was one blued at Dicks and a blues and stainless at Academy; all canted.  What is the problem here? 

I've sent mine back to Marlin and they've had it for 5 days and no word.  I'll call them in the morning.  It looks like this is a continuing problem that they have not fixed.

How much does adding the rail bring the Tech sights up?

Thanks!

See the below letter that just went out in the mail to Marlin.  I included an Appleseed brocheure.  I'll post any response I get.

October 26, 2010

Marlin Firearms
Customer Service / Research & Development
P.O. Box 1871
Madison, NC 27025

Re: Marlin 795 LTR for Appleseed

Sir or Madam:

The Appleseed Project (appleseedinfo.org) is a non-profit organization dedicated to teaching traditional marksmanship skills along with the heritage and history of our Nation. The marksmanship skills and techniques we teach are the same as taught by the Marine Corps when I went through boot camp in 1970.  Most of our instruction is done at 25 meters on "D" silhouettes from the Army Qualification Test reduced in size and contrast to simulate ranges of 100, 200, 300 and 400 yards.  Although center fire rifles are welcome and used the most popular firearms are semiautomatic .22s.  Most popular among the .22s are the Ruger 10-22 and the Marlin 795.  I own both and neither comes out of the box ideal for an Appleseed.  I prefer the Marlin for several reasons, primarily it takes and costs less to make it adequate for an Appleseed LTR (Liberty Training Rifle).  Out of the box it is hands down more accurate than the 10-22.  The draw backs are it is too light, the sights are woefully inadequate, the stock is rather puny and the trigger pull is long and creepy.  The modifications I have made to both mine and my grandson's 795s are: I stiffened the fore stock by epoxying a steel rod in the channel under the barrel, this also adds some needed weight; I replaced the plastic trigger guard with a machined al. trigger guard and trigger from Diversified Innovative Products (diproductsinc.com).  I also added a scope due to my eyesight.  While not the "perfect" LTR I am able to consistently score above expert on our AQT course of fire with it.

  I am sure you receive an endless supply of suggestions and requests for various firearm designs.  However if you will consider a few modifications/upgrades to your basic 795 there is a waiting market for it.  I personally have already been responsible for at least five (5) 795s leaving store shelves headed to an Appleseed.  For my preference just make it look and feel like a 85% scale version of the M14 and you are there.  That would also appeal to a substantial market outside of Appleseed I am sure.

For a more precise list of  modifications/upgrades:
•   20 - 22 inch barrel (my 1970s vintage Mdl. 60 has a 22" barrel that appears would be an easy  replacement on my Mdl. 795.  Something I am considering.
•   Full size, beefier stock with a higher comb (or adjustable cheek piece)
•   Aluminum trigger guard and trigger similar to the D.I.P.
•   Longer more substantial magazine release (we perform mag changes during the course of fire)
•   Drill and tap receiver for scope/sight mounting
•   M1/M14 style sights.  Tech-Sights (tech-sights.com) makes M16 style sights for a number of rifles including the 795.  These would be ok but the M14 style sights preferred.  We sometimes fire .22s out to 100 yds.  Ease of sight adjustment is a big plus
•   Better trigger with less slack, creep and over travel.  The D.I.P. trigger actually has two set screws to eliminate a lot of the slack and over travel.
•   Accessories could/should include four (4) magazines and military style loop sling (M1/M14 sling).
With the above you would have an "out of the box" LTR seemingly at a lower cost than the bottom of the line current "WalMart" Ruger 10-22.  Please visit the Appleseed Project website.  While there click on the RWVA Links and check out the forum.  You will find that there is substantial interest in a factory LTR.  I hope you will decide to make it a Marlin.

Thank you for your consideration.


Craig S. Whitfield
1446 Conley Road
Conley, GA 30288
cswhitfield@yahoo.com
PS: By the way there are Appleseed shoots scheduled for November 13&14 in both Waco and Toccoa Georgia.  Come join us and see for yourself.

I have done something to my 795 stock that I don't think has been mentioned yet.

I noticed the flexibility of the stock, and it possibly affecting POI when I sling up tight. So I just used a utility blade and cut around the barrel channel, effectively free floating the barrel. Excessively free floating. I ended up with a fairly large gap, maybe 3/16" in between the barrel and the stock, allowing for flex without touching the barrel. My 795 has performed flawlessly like this. 

I would definitely recommend doing something to the stock. Either stiffening it, or free floating it like I did. I just found it easier to cut out stock material than find a rod and epoxy it. You probably get similar results with either method.

I did pretty much the same thing with a half-round file. 

Quote from: BP on November 05, 2010, 03:27:47 AM
I have done something to my 795 stock that I don't think has been mentioned yet.

I noticed the flexibility of the stock, and it possibly affecting POI when I sling up tight. So I just used a utility blade and cut around the barrel channel, effectively free floating the barrel. Excessively free floating. I ended up with a fairly large gap, maybe 3/16" in between the barrel and the stock, allowing for flex without touching the barrel. My 795 has performed flawlessly like this. 

I would definitely recommend doing something to the stock. Either stiffening it, or free floating it like I did. I just found it easier to cut out stock material than find a rod and epoxy it. You probably get similar results with either method.

I myself have had NOTHING but luck with my 795! (first rifle)

I shot Rifleman with it about 3 weeks ago. I have found that the Mags need to be broken in sometimes, I took my mags and loaded/unloaded each one about 10 times. Went to the range a few days later and had NO fail to feeds, I have also noticed that if the chamber is lubricated, and you have a spent/unspent round in the chamber to remove. You must pull the bolt back quickly for the bolt to grab it, don't pull it back slowly. (Obviously this is only neccesary if you're in the middle of a mag because the bolt always stays open on the last shot.) So far my Dad and I are in it about $200.00 and it would have cost more than that for just a Ruger with no accessories! I HIGHLY RECOMMEND MARLIN 795's AND ANY MARLIN PRODUCTS!

-Blake

I hope that everyone had a great Thanksgiving yesterday!

Well... on my way to putting together a Marlin 795 for a "loaner" gun.  I ventured out on Black Friday to my local Sports Authority where after the rebate the rifle will be about $95 + tax.  However, I got there early enough to get one of the scratch off coupons, and snagged one for an additional $25  discount (if I had been lucky enough to the $500 coupon my wife would have hated me cause I would have come home with multiple rifles!).  So for around $70+ taxes I'll have loaner here after CBI opens and they run my background check. 
I also sent an email to Boyd's to see if there is any chance of them making their TactiCool stock for this rifle in the future.  I mentioned AS directly as well as including the URL for them, and hope that this might give them a little push to make this good gun even better.  I have 3 of their stocks already, but they really don't offer much for the Marlin line of .22's... maybe the idea of being able to sell few might help our efforts to keep the LTR's affordable.
I have shot both 10/22's as well as Marlins, and have to say that my Marlin 60 is probably the most accurate .22 in my collection, so getting a magazine fed version will be a wonder addition to my safe, and for use on the trail.
--JF

I had the opportunity to shoot the Marlin Pappoose , a few months back. As I recall the bbl was attached via a threaded nut , which loosened frequently .

Seems the best group (bench) was 12 minutes.
Is anyone familiar with this backback type rifle?
JA

Quote from: Johnnyappleseed on December 12, 2010, 11:49:27 PM
I had the opportunity to shoot the Marlin Pappoose , a few months back. As I recall the bbl was attached via a threaded nut , which loosened frequently .

Seems the best group (bench) was 12 minutes.
Is anyone familiar with this backback type rifle?
JA

I saw Jimi in NM with one a couple months ago.  Give him a shout.

Thanx JJ
The best source I can think of is an RWVA Rifleman
JA

Quote from: Johnnyappleseed on December 13, 2010, 01:27:09 AM
Thanx JJ
The best source I can think of is an RWVA Rifleman
JA

You're welcome.  I only remember because when I saw it I said "ooooh I want one."

Quote from: marrandy on September 30, 2010, 01:07:16 PM
a)   Better stock ie. ATI (if they complete it) or something wooden or stronger, less flexible plastic, heavier.  Adjustable in length and height for different people.

Figure about $100 for this.

Quoteb)   Better sights similar to or just  Tech Sights.

Add $60

Quotec)   With swivels/buckles quick release.

While it comes with studs, add $10

Quoted)   With USGI sling

Add $15

Quotee)   Two extra mag's for a total of Three.

Add $61

Quotef)   Metal trigger guard as the plastic one cracks and better access to the mag release.

Add $45

Quoteg)   Drop free mag's as currently it is quite stiff.

Add $20

Quoteh)   Improved scope mount - A Weaver/Picatinny type to prevent forward creep.

Add $25

Quotei)   Easier, more straight forward dis-assembly for cleaning.

Marlin would have to redesign the rifle - never going to happen.

Quotej)   Better trigger.  Improved weight and less creep and clean break.  I can't even feel/hear the reset on mine.

You can improve the trigger weight with some gunsmithing, but there is no way to remove the creepy take-up, it is inherent to the design of the trigger group.

So all in all, the changes you are looking for will make the rifle's cost increase by somewhere in the range of $336.00, to a total of $435.00. That's more than I charge for a Ruger 10-22 LTR ready to go, with all the bells and whistles.

Douglas G. Cowan

Quote from: douglas34474 on December 15, 2010, 01:16:29 AM

Quote from: marrandy on September 30, 2010, 01:07:16 PM
a)   Better stock ie. ATI (if they complete it) or something wooden or stronger, less flexible plastic, heavier.  Adjustable in length and height for different people.

Figure about $100 for this.

Quoteb)   Better sights similar to or just  Tech Sights.

Add $60

Quotec)   With swivels/buckles quick release.

While it comes with studs, add $10

Quoted)   With USGI sling

Add $15

Quotee)   Two extra mag's for a total of Three.

Add $61

Quotef)   Metal trigger guard as the plastic one cracks and better access to the mag release.

Add $45

Quoteg)   Drop free mag's as currently it is quite stiff.

Add $20

Quoteh)   Improved scope mount - A Weaver/Picatinny type to prevent forward creep.

Add $25

Quotei)   Easier, more straight forward dis-assembly for cleaning.

Marlin would have to redesign the rifle - never going to happen.

Quotej)   Better trigger.  Improved weight and less creep and clean break.  I can't even feel/hear the reset on mine.

You can improve the trigger weight with some gunsmithing, but there is no way to remove the creepy take-up, it is inherent to the design of the trigger group.

So all in all, the changes you are looking for will make the rifle's cost increase by somewhere in the range of $336.00, to a total of $435.00. That's more than I charge for a Ruger 10-22 LTR ready to go, with all the bells and whistles.

Douglas G. Cowan

I didn't need to do squat to the 795's I bought to shoot Rifleman with them other than add the optics and sling.
$16 sling and swivel set
$45 Scope
$140 Rifle
$201 total

Shoot, i did even less thatn that.

Bought three spare mags, at 15 bucks a mag + 8 bucks for shipping= $53


USGI sling and mounts was about 20 all together.

30$ BSA .22 Special variable scope (was on sale)

Rifle cost 100$ after rebate.

I have found little need to do much tweaking.  I did a very little bit of work to the trigger to make it a little lighter.  I have no problems with my mags.  Sure they dont drop free ar-15 style, but because they protrude and Im used to guns WITHOUT drop free mags, this isnt a really big deal at all.  Adapt yourself to your circumstance.

So, still under 210$ for a nice little rifle I've used to qual rifleman with on more than one occasion.  Im not knocking the ruger 10-22 at all.  If thats what some one wants than so be it, but I've got an amazing rifle that does everything I need it to do with the bells and whistles.  

My next .22 I plan on getting a ruger, simply because of the vast amount of aftermarket stuff out there for it.  Its fun for tinkering.  I bought my marlin because at the time, I had no desire to tinker with it, and I still dont.

Keep things in perspective.
It ain't about gadgets, bells, whistles, tacticool or pretty stuff.
You CANNOT buy success, you have to get down on yer belly and earn it.
Six steps and one round at a time.
I ain't saying you shouldn't have any fancy rifles, I sure got a bunch of them and I love 'em all, but that don't matter here at Appleseed.

When all is said and done, you need to be able to do that Rifleman performance with that old SMLE you found in your in laws attic, at 2 AM with no sleep, in the mud. That come from hard work, not the cover of a magazine

Quote from: SamD on December 15, 2010, 10:17:03 AM
Keep things in perspective.
It ain't about gadgets, bells, whistles, tacticool or pretty stuff.

I agree completely. I was pointing out that making the changes on the 'wish list' will increase the cost of the rifle. What is the old saying about making a silk purse of a sows ear.

I got my ATI Dragunov stock in the mail yesterday.  I'm going to tart up one of my 795's.  With the stock, I'll still be under $200.  Also, building up the hammer with JB weld helps with the trigger take-up and a $.25 allen screw helps with overtravel. With a little sanding and filing the mag drops free on my short one but I still need to do a little more on the long one.  I'll take care of that when I tart it up.  The only problem I have with the rifle that I can't fix for under $10 is the design of the mag release button. Other than that, hand tools and a drill press will make the rifle rock.

Quote from: SamD on December 15, 2010, 10:17:03 AM
Keep things in perspective.
It ain't about gadgets, bells, whistles, tacticool or pretty stuff.
You CANNOT buy success, you have to get down on yer belly and earn it.
Six steps and one round at a time.
I ain't saying you shouldn't have any fancy rifles, I sure got a bunch of them and I love 'em all, but that don't matter here at Appleseed.

When all is said and done, you need to be able to do that Rifleman performance with that old SMLE you found in your in laws attic, at 2 AM with no sleep, in the mud. That come from hard work, not the cover of a magazine

I was going to post something along these lines last night, but got too tired.

THANK YOU!

Ive been noticing at a lot of appleseeds, and even on the forum, that return appleseeders, rifleman and cook alike, are trying to more or less "Game" the system to get the rifleman score.  What I mean is, they are trying to do add all the bells and whisltes as you say in order to pump their score up.  And while thats ok, it also defeats the purpose of the shoot and the spirit a bit, IMO.

THe intent was to teach every man, woman and child to pick up any service grade rifle and make a hit at 500 yards.  It wasnt to teach them to take any service grade rifle, add 500$ of optics, premium handloads, jeweled actions, and feather weight triggers so they could score a 210 or better.

We should never forget, as one very wise shoot boss explained to us at an event, that the course of fire was designed around bolt action, interal magazine fed rifles over 100 years ago with rifle and ammo made by the lowest bidder.


Ask the 132 german prisoners that Sgt Alvin York took with his Springfield '03 bolt action rifle if drop free mags were what won the battle  

We added a 795 to the family rifle stable.  It came with a scope!  Nothing was on the box to suggest it was there when we bought it.  It made its first Appleseed appearance in early December.  Youngest daughter with approximately 500 previous trigger pulls to her name managed a 201 and suddenly became dedicated to earning her patch and 7th stepping.  It was a good purchase.  In our stable it may be the most accurate semi-auto. 

Quote from: dart67eb on December 15, 2010, 12:19:19 PM
I got my ATI Dragunov stock in the mail yesterday.  I'm going to tart up one of my 795's.  With the stock, I'll still be under $200.  Also, building up the hammer with JB weld helps with the trigger take-up and a $.25 allen screw helps with overtravel. With a little sanding and filing the mag drops free on my short one but I still need to do a little more on the long one.  I'll take care of that when I tart it up.  The only problem I have with the rifle that I can't fix for under $10 is the design of the mag release button. Other than that, hand tools and a drill press will make the rifle rock.

It took some MAJOR carving up to get this to work.  The trigger guard assy on the 795 is much longer than the model 60 and the stock had to be carved to fit.  The innards on the 795 are also wider than the model 60 due to the bar that keeps you from firing when there is no magazine.  It took about 3 hrs with a drill press, forstner bit, grinding bit and some hand files to get it to fit.  Even then, it's not 100% pretty.  A milling machine would have been better.  Also, you can not get the front handguard on with low rings and a scope on it.   You have to take the scope off and then reinstall it.  I'm going to have a word with Walter at ATI about this.

SamD your post regarding the standard mill spec rifle is right on 

Still even Henry's uncle Max ,could not resist modifying his M1 Garand ,before making a super shot from a bell tower on a German General during WW2
JA

If Mr. Ross had consulted with me, I would have told him to tweak that part a bit  .

My nephew (the one with the ego that won't let him come to an Appleseed) socializes and shoots with him ocassionally, maybe we can get it changed in the next printing 

The 795 with the ATI stock (and now free dropping mags)

Registered a "0" on the wife-block meter for one.   

Does that mean you get to buy one?

Quote from: Piker on February 14, 2011, 10:56:51 PM
Registered a "0" on the wife-block meter for one.   

"0" block = Buy  

10 block = not hap'nen

Seen CS shoot an AQT with his, and his grin. That 795 is a rifle.

And at 100 WFRN's at Gander Mtn with sling studs already attached, why not!!?

Ive been noticing at a lot of appleseeds, and even on the forum, that return appleseeders, rifleman and cook alike, are trying to more or less "Game" the system to get the rifleman score.  What I mean is, they are trying to do add all the bells and whisltes as you say in order to pump their score up.  And while thats ok, it also defeats the purpose of the shoot and the spirit a bit, IMO.

I've read that colonists would hand select their cast lead round-ball and recast ones that were out of round or had voids that made them wobbly. Can't hunt for the table with a musket and wobbly ammo.

The spin a rifle gives a projectile equalizes the imperfections in the construction and allows it to fly true. If smoothbore ammo is painstakingly selected, it can vastly increase the range of said smokepole.

If Hezekiah Wyman did this with his ammo was he "Gaming"? If some Militia at the North Bridge used hand selected ammo were they "Gaming"?

If Mr. Wyman or any Minuteman had their frizen rehardened to make more spark and yeild a lower misfire rate, if they had the V spring replaced in their lock, if they had the pan reshaped to better allow the main charge to ignite, if they kept the flash hole polished and free of corrosion, if they had the local locksmith work on their trigger, where they, "Gaming"? If they practiced a lot, bet they knew to render their waters down the barrel to remove fouling, this might smell gamey, but was it "Gaming"?

Was it "Gaming" if a colonist knapped an Agate instead of a Flint for his flintlock? Agate gave better ignition and held it's edge much longer, but cost a bit more. Not unlike getting a bolt jewled, radiused, head space corrected, the extractor tuned, and the firing pin profiled and pinned.

If I remember right, the misfire rate on a Bess or a Charleville was 30-40 percent. Was it "Gaming" if a militiaman made a few improvements to his dad's old British or French musket to make it more reliable?

Was it "Gaming" to actually look at your intended target? Or was it better to do as the regular Brit forces and turn your head after leveling your musket?

Rendered their waters?  Were they shooting Mosins?