Project Appleseed

Hi all.

Great to be here and contributing.

First, I wish there were sub groups for each rifle.  It would keep pertinent information that is relavent for each rifle together.

But moving on.


So here I am, a newish Appleseeder.  I passed my AQT  3 times on Sunday.  I am a IIT-0.  I print and distribute flyers locally.  What next...oh yes, a LTR (Liberty/Loaner Training Rifle).  So I've searched all over this forum, the internet etc. and find the Marlin 795 is well considered and is available for $129 with a $30 mail in refund.  Sweet.  I'm in the process of ordering Tech sights from EEL.

So now, what about a scope aka glass ?

I'm sure there are plenty suitable, but I am also sure that over the past years, there are scopes to avoid as they fall off, break, too cheap and nasty.

So some questions...

1)   Can the scope be used independently of the tech sights  ie. so they won't get in the way of each other.

Just found out that its only one mount, so I'll need another $99 Marlin 795  

2)   What zoom for an LTR  (I like variables because I might want to steal the LTR back and use it at 50, 100 or 150 yards or put it on another rifle  :-)

3)   What make/model do people use ?

4)  The best place to buy it from

4)  Any other comments, preferably nice, that you would like to make.

Huzzah !!!

For my scoped LTR I used a Bushnell Rimfire in 3-9 power.  It is a loaner rifle for people with old eyes but I have shot it quite a bit and am amazed at the niceness of this scope which only cost about $35 including rings.

I would have liked to use an American-made scope (this one is Chinese) and the Leupold Rimfire is really nice but costs about 10 times as much.

I think the 3-9X is ideal and I usually would set it at 3X for 25 yards out to about 6X at 100 yards.  A .22 doesn't shoot far enough to set it all they up at 9X unless you are doing it to look for squirrels.

I bought it from Amazon with a gift card that was given to me and it arrived in 3 days.
HPT

I agree with HPT, a quality 3-9X magnification scope is going to get you through an Appleseed with no problems.  I have two .22 rifles, one with a 3-9x40 Tasco, which I shot Rifleman with, and a 3-9x40 Bushnell Sportsman, which I prefer to use.  I know this is getting a little bit nit-picky, but if possible, I'd go with a 40mm objective, verses the fairly common 32mm objective.  That's my personal opinion.


---GoldFish

When I've scoped a .22 I've used a straight 4X, usually an old steel tube Weaver.  However, you might really benefit from a scope with the ability to adjust for distance (meaning an adjustable objective lens to help with parallax).  I've heard some good reviews on those BSA "sweet .22" scopes but have not bought or used one myself.

Great info, keep it coming.

As i found out that there is only One mount on the marlin 795, to get One with the  'Tech Sights'  and also to have   'a scope'  I had to order a Second one.

Buy at around $125-130 with a mail in rebate worth $25  aka $100 ish, it was a no brainer.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Rebates/rebates_spring2010.asp

I hope this rebate is good.

I guess we will see  :-)

Quote from: marrandy on July 21, 2010, 08:03:57 PM
Hi all.

Great to be here and contributing.

First, I wish there were sub groups for each rifle.  It would keep pertinent information that is relavent for each rifle together.

But moving on.


So here I am, a newish Appleseeder.  I passed my AQT  3 times on Sunday.  I am a IIT0.  I print and distribute flyers locally.  What next...oh yes, a LTR (Liberty/Loaner Training Rifle).  So I've searched all over this forum, the internet etc. and find the Marlin 795 is well considered and is available for $129 with a $30 mail in refund.  Sweet.  I'm in the process of ordering Tech sights from EEL.

So now, what about a scope aka glass ?

I'm sure there are plenty suitable, but I am also sure that over the past years, there are scopes to avoid as they fall off, break, too cheap and nasty.

So some questions...

1)   Can the scope be used independently of the tech sights  ie. so they won't get in the way of each other.

Just found out that its only one mount, so I'll need another $99 Marlin 795   

2)   What zoom for an LTR  (I like variables because I might want to steal the LTR back and use it at 50, 100 or 150 yards or put it on another rifle  :-)

3)   What make/model do people use ?

4)  The best place to buy it from

You cannot use a scope and irons on the same rifle, IMO. One of the two will suffer from poor/improper cheek weld. Again, IMO.

I prefer 4x fixed for ruggedness. If you can't hit it with 4x at 200 yards, you might ought to think twice about shooting at it 

I have had two pellet gun scopes and find them clear, well made, and with good color.

Pellet gun scopes are tough as railroad ties, and inexpensive.( A magnum spring gun will destroy a $400 L'pold scope, seen it myself)

Pellet gun scopes are generally set for 25 to 35 yard parallax. That makes a big difference under 100 yards.

Pellet gun scopes can be had with long eye relief without having to pay a premium price.

I have one Tac Edge and one Leapers, both fixed 4X long eye relief. Both under $60 shipped to my door.

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Leapers_5th_Gen_4x40_Tactedge_Rifle_Scope_1_Tube_11mm_Dovetail/1683
http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Leapers_5th_Gen_4x32_Rifle_Scope_Illuminated_Mil_Dot_Reticle_1_4_MOA_1_Tube_11mm_Dovetail_Rings/2620

Very happy with each.

YHJ

I have ordered a Second marlin 795 to put a scope on.  $125-130 Marlin 795's with a $25 rebate good for all of 2010.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Rebates/rebates_spring2010.asp   -   I hope the rebate is good.

Oh my God...I'm out of control !!!

I use a Simmons .22MAG Series, #511072.  This is 3-9x32 AO scope that seems to be fairly good quality but a bit pricier than some that have already been mentioned.

As to the adjustable magnification for greater distances, 4MOA is 4MOA is 4MOA.  A 4MOA square at 25m is exactly the same size, visually, as a 4MOA  square at 500m.  If you can see that square and hit it at 25m then you can usually see it just as well and hit it at 100 or 200m.

In my case, that extra magnification is used to overcome a handicap.  I have a 'blind spot' right in the center of my dominant eye, so I need to increase the size of the target so that it is large enough for me to overcome this.  For this reason, an adjustable scope on a Loaner LTR is a very good idea.

Understand that when you mount the rings to the rail on top of that rifle you will almost certainly need to glue them in place.  The tolerances on the factory rail are horrible, and optics tend to 'walk' themselves backwards off the rail.  On another thread it has been suggested that you use something called kevlar clear nail polish...

BTW, Marlin will allow only one rebate per address/household (or at least that was the case last year).  It's in the fine print - with my blind spot I had to zoom in to about 200% to read it.  Just a heads-up.

Appears you have MRD (Marlin Rifle Disease).  

Quote from: Another D.O.M. on July 21, 2010, 11:03:15 PM

BTW, Marlin will allow only one rebate per address/household (or at least that was the case last year).  It's in the fine print - with my blind spot I had to zoom in to about 200% to read it.  Just a heads-up.

Good point - you are correct Sir !


Still, $130-$25 = $105 + a straight $130 = $235 for Two basic Marlin 795 rifles.  I think that is still a good deal compared to a Ruger 10/20.  Both will make admirable LTR (Liberty/Loaner Training Rifles).

YMMV  

Quote from: marrandy on July 21, 2010, 11:09:51 PM
Still, $130-$25 = $105 + a straight $130 = $235 for Two basic Marlin 795 rifles.  I think that is still a good deal compared to a Ruger 10/20.  Both will make admirable LTR (Liberty/Loaner Training Rifles).

You can't have too many loaner LTRs.  I have had 6 of my 10/22s on the line at an AS at once.  One of my selling points to get attendees  is "I'll provide everything, you just show up" - it takes away excuses.

Try this scope...

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=965542

I have used this scope on a Marlin model 60, tub fed rifle put into a black Dragunov style pistol grip composite stock, and have had it almost 2 years with no problems. Holds a zero, and the reticle has a small circle around the center of the reticle, which makes it easy to center the shot.

My wife, who is disinterested in shooting, loves this rifle and when I actually get her to go to the range with me, she always asks...
"Do I get to shoot the Black rifle with the scope on it?"  Yep, that's the one, honey!!!

I will second the idea of a Fixed 4x scope over a variable power scope, and the reason is simple.  9/10, someone with a variable power scope (at their first appleseed) will inevitably crank the power up to maximum "just so I can see the target" when what they really mean is "so I can see the bullet holes in the target".  I had a 17-18yr old with perfect eyesight using a variable power scope, and had the thing set on 12x.  Put them in an iron sighted rifle, and their scores (and cadence) immediately improved..

Even with a 4x, if you've got good eyes (what are you using a scope for) you can see bullet holes, but you have to really concentrate. 

Stick to fixed, low power scopes, and you should be okay.  They also typically cost less, and seem to be more durable.

I bought two 795's to use as LTRs at the end of last year, but haven't gotten them set up yet.  I asked for a set of Tech-Sights for one, (birthday is in 8 days, we'll see!) and a BSA Sweet 22 for the other.  I had my wife order the Sweet 22 from Sportsmans Guide: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=644012.  I have heard bad reports about mounting scopes directly to the factory dovetail grooves in the 795/60's, so I searched Amazon the other day and found this Weaver rail adaptor:  http://www.amazon.com/UTG-11mm-Weaver-Adapter-Adjustable/dp/B001CJ67E6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1279817042&sr=8-1-spell For $6.95 plus free shipping, what do you have to lose?  Seems to get good reviews.

The main complaint I have seen about the 795s is that it is hard to get a good cheek weld with a scope.  Probably esp so with a riser like I linked above.  So I got a set of low-mount Weaver scope rings from Wal-Mart to hopefully mitigate that as much as possible.  We'll see how it all works out.  Maybe in 2 weeks I can update with how it all came together. 

I'm pretty biased, scope wise.

Can't go wrong with an old steel tubed Weaver.

Older (1980's) Bushnell are OK, but I just had a newer one fog up. Not impressed. Not impressed with Simmons, either, and definitely won't recommend a Leupold, won't sell them. They fog, and don't hold up to New England/Northern New York winters.

I've got at least one BSA scope (6x24 Mil-Dot on a .308 long range rifle, as in excess of 500 yards), and, though they're cheap, no problems yet. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another BSA.

My personal "go to" rifle wears an expensive Aimpoint CompM4, I won't recommend that one, due to the co$t. Great stuff, heavy hit on the wallet. Cheaper Red dot scopes are a maybe. Battery life is usually short, and batteries for them not cheap (unlike the Aimpoint).

Low power is good. 3x9 should be your max, and keep it down on 3x. 4x is the max fixed power I'll recommend. 2.5x or 3x are also great choices.

You can probably work out the Tech Sights so you could install a fairly short scope at the same time. Both won't be usable together, but you'll have a choice, by installing or removing the scope. SKS or pistol scope, or a Red dot would be the trick. I'm doing up a couple of 10/22's like that, cutting the scope mount.

I also recommend a fixed power scope for an LTR.  Like others have said, this keeps shooters from tinkering with the power when it should be on its lowest setting... plus, many of the cheaper variable power scopes will change POI at different settings.  Fixed power scopes tend to be shorter, which is good because it is usually hard to mount a scope far enough forward.

As for power, I believe a 2.5x is perfect.  The closer to this you can find, the better.  2.5x is just enough to clear up the sight picture for people with bad eyes, but not enough to transmit enough "wobble" to cause them to fuss the shot.  Yes, look for scopes designed for the AR or SKS -- they tend to be short, low power, and short eye relief.  I know on a Ruger you want the lowest rings you can find, but I'm not sure with the Marlin (I know they have a taller stock).

There are deals out there... I'd look on e-bay, or check for scopes on clearance at Wal Mart.  That's where I got my LTR's scope -- a fixed power BSA for $17.00.  If you see an old straight tube Weaver, buy that sucker.  Those are great. 

Quote from: Nickle on July 22, 2010, 02:52:26 PM
I'm pretty biased, scope wise.

Can't go wrong with an old steel tubed Weaver.

What Nickle said. He gave me that advice, and my LTR wears a Weaver 2.5x7 (A K7, I think?) and my AR-15 wears a T-8 - 3x8). I shoot AQTs with the magnification all the way down low and do just fine. (my eyes do NOT like Tech-sights, alas... but I'm trying to shoot lefty and see if my dominant left eye will do better with them)

Quote from: henschman on July 22, 2010, 03:26:36 PM
I also recommend a fixed power scope for an LTR.

I have a bolt-action .22 with a no-name 4x scope on it - came with the rifle. Seems to work pretty good, though. Good enough for me to regularly shoot Rifleman scores on the AQTs and clean Redcoat targets.

Really, that glass is just there to correct for your eyesight's deficiencies, not to let you circumcise a gnat at 300 yards. Low power seems to work best for me.

ok

with a 795 make sure you get good rings.  the contact surface that attaches to the rimfire rail needs to be as long as possible.  i have seen some 795's with cheep rings that the scope will slide.  Millet and tally both make good rimfire rings. 

I like 1.5X to 4X shotgun scopes on rimfires.  4x is plenty for a rimfire.  the great thing about a shotgun scope is that they are built to focus at the same ranges where a 22 works well.  Another added bonus you get with a shotgun scope is they have a longer eye relief range than most rifle scopes.  This lets you find one scope position that works for a lot of different shooters and positions. 

Woody

I went with the wallmart, all-in-one-chinamade, Crown Point (?), 3x9. It has a lot of orange in the paperwork. Made for .22, has scope/rings/caps/cover for about $60.

If you haven't mounted one before please read up on it...not hard at all but slightly complicated, should use a laser to help, and too much torque can flatten out the tube.

As noted, you can have the old iron sights there to use if the scope goes bad but watch for cheek weld.
As noted, keep it set at 3 or 4 power for out distances. When you go to 100 yds you'll have to adjust.

I have 4 LTR's in various set ups, like the scope on the standard 795, and I've gotten several people set up like the above, all without complaints.

Now you get to see what you like and fits you best. I'd suggest that you 'borrow' and shoot a friends or LTR that are set up with different sights/scopes and see what fits you before you spend too much. I feel quite secure in saying that most instructors would let you see 'their favorite' and shoot it if you explain what you're up to.

Oh yeah.... then you get to see which manufacturer and bullet weight your rifle likes to fire.....other threads talk about what people have found works for them.

Good luck, and welcome.

CSHR

On our 795 LTR's we use the 3-9 Bushnell Sportsman with the 3-2-1 Low Light Reticle. A $50 scope. Use low rings and possibly double up on the rings as they tend to creep.
Keep it mounted pretty far forward too.
You can use a special locktite to stop this ring creep though. Do not forget to build up the comb to get a proper cheek weld. A piece of foam and a neoprene slip on ammo pad works great.

The LL Reticle is actually a standard cross hair with a duplex reticle, but it also has another duplex a bit wider below that.
These make great aiming points for the KD 22 portion of our AS. Once you know the MOA from the cross hair to each of the duplex posts for each power you can match that with the bullet drop for your particular ammo/rifle combo and have a BDC reticle of sorts.
A good exercise for the shooters to figure that out if you have time and the right crowd. They make their own range cards just like the big boys.

So if you see a rabbit at 25 yds take the shot with the cross hair, if one pops up at 100, use the top of the first duplex reticle. For 150 yds the lowest duplex.
You get the idea.
Here is what it looks like:



Sorry, sorta strayed a bit off topic....

I don't know TaosGlock.  I always wondered why the .22 rimfire at 25 meters/yds into a 1" square didn't appeal to more small game hunters.  If you can learn to keep your rounds in a 1" circle you can headshoot the small game all day at normal .22 rimfire ranges.  My folks always did headshots on squirrels and rabbits as it doesn't damage the meat you intend to eat.  Grandpa even head shot ruffed grouse if he caught them walking along through the woods.

Small game hunting was where many of the American rifleman know to us today through history got their start.  Even in the days of black powder rifles the folks on the frontier learned to be such good shots because they used their rifles to supply meat for the table to help feed the family.  In more civilized times/years even if many families in rural areas did not own a centerfire rifle they did own a rimfire rifle for that same reason.

When we look for "fun" targets to give shooter's a break in the afternoons maybe a squirrel's head or rabbit's head target might be seen as fun by some folks.  Of course there are others who might be upset that we'd even think of using a .22 to mimic what it was designed for.

marrandy,

I have a simmons 3x9x32 .22 mag on my model 60.   It came with scope and rings for the dovetail rail mount on a 60/795 at about 40 bucks at Dick's.  I have been very happy with it as the blade sights on the 60 are nearly worthless.

THis is the scope:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=213471&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=free&utm_campaign=657

Dick's had several in stock in silver and matte finish and there is a model with AO that is about 10 bucks more.

Thanks for all the great replies.

Keep em coming.

I'm going to see if anyone has a Marlin 795 locally with a scope just to check it out.

Thanks again everyone.

Regards and best wishes...Martin

I haven't shot a Marlin with a scope but I know from experience that it can be hard to mount a scope far enough forward on a Ruger 10/22 to get sufficient eye relief.  Prone and sitting positions place the eye very close to a standard-mounted scope.

There are scopes with short eye relief but if you run into the problem, Evolution Gun Works (EGW) makes a mount that will get the scope out far enough.

http://egw-guns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=39_128&products_id=218

Here's where to go to buy your scope:    http://catalogs.natchezss.com/D172010/t1.asp?page=2
I've had decent luck with Simmons, for inexpensive scopes. One of my loaner Marlins sports a 22 Mag Simmons. Finally, go here for some accessories:  https://www.rimfiretechnologies.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=50    BeSwift

"plus, many of the cheaper variable power scopes will change POI at different settings."

Yep, they'll change eye relief also. Adjust the scope at low power or vice versa, change the power setting and now it doesn't fit.

HPT, "I know from experience that it can be hard to mount a scope far enough forward on a Ruger 10/22 to get sufficient eye relief."

I ran into that as well. On my own personal gun, adding a slip on butt pad added 1" or so of stock length along with putting the scope as far forward as possible helped a lot. Added a cheek pad too for a more natural cheek weld placement. Lots of little things you can do to help the gun fall into a natural/comfortable position.

Haven't tried them on the .22's but we've put Redfield 2-7X on our AR's. They run about $120 and we're very happy with them.

As for possible ring slippage, put a bit of rosin in the rings before tighening them down.....O.L.

A bit of delay...My wooden stock from numrich came in.   Nice.  2 screws to change it out.  Also Rx'd my tech sights from EEL,  Also easy to install.  The QD slings w/screw fittings finally arrived, but I haven't installed them.  This week sometime.

I'm still debating (more like prevaricating  -  Martin...get a grip) about a scope.

Despite the advice for a fixed 4 x,  I really have a preference for 3-9x, maybe a 40mm as I like larger lenses.

Question...are there are decently priced 3-9x40 that don't change POI ?

Yes, I know eye relief changes as you adjust magnification, but a half decent scope shouldn't change POI.

Thanks.

Ive got a variable 3-9x32 BSA ".22 special" scope on my marlin and it works great.  Glass is clean and crisp, seems to hold its zero well.  Got it on sale at Gander Mt for 29$ and couldnt be happier with it.

You can get nice rings with the vertical hold down screw at pyramid air for under $10.

OK - let's be real specific with some ACTUAL test results.

If anyone has the time or inclination, can they test their.22 rifle/scope at minimum magnification and maximum magnification e.g. 3x then 9x and see if there are any POI (Point Of Impact) changes.

100 yards would be best, but 25, 50 or 75 would be OK.

Please list your Make and Model and if you used the mount that came with the scope, or the make/model of any add-on scope mount/rings.

If there are POI shifts, at least we will know with which scopes and have a permanent record in the forum for future Appleseeders.

Regards and best wishes...Martin