Project Appleseed

Put your questions and comments about reloading the .308 Win/7.62 NATO in this thread.

I've got some military surplus 30-06 bullets that I picked up at a gunshow. Can they be loaded for 308? I know they are both 30 caliber but the 30-06 bullets are longer and would extend into the 308 case a little farther (causing increased pressure?) Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks 

The bullet diameter for both 308 Winchester and 30.06 is the same - .308".  That means the military surplus bullets can be used in either cartridge.  If they are surplus 30.06 bullets they are most likely "flat base" bullets, it .308 they are most likely "boat tail" bullets.  The length of the bullets aren't the "longer" you see when you look at the cartridges, it's the length of the case itself.  So the 30.06 bullets, providing they are the standard 150 grn. flat base bullets will not stick farther down in the .308 case if you seat them to the proper depth.

I wouldn't try to use the commercial hunting bullets in 180 to 220 grn. weights in your .308 as they will stick much further down in the case when seated to the depth required to reach the overall length required to feed and chamber.

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the information. The 30.06 bullets are 168 grain and are flat base as you described. However, they are 1/4 inch longer than the 150 grain boat tail bullets I've been using for .308 reloading. I've done some measuring and it looks like they will extend into the case even if seated to the maximum OAL allowed for 308 rounds. Should I try to trade these for some .308 boat tail just to be safe?

I'll make sure to stay away from the 180 to 220 grain bullets when loading .308

Those should work all right. Just bear in mind you will be seating them a little deeper than the 150 gr.

FWIW, I've used 180 gr bullets in the .308, but limit them to bolt guns only. I do NOT recommend using 180's in the M14 or M1, whether the M1 is .308 or 30-06. Neither of these rifles are designed to use them, they were designed for 150 through 173 grain, and there's no valid reason to use heavier than the 175 gr Sierra Match King, and then I would use the 168 gr Match King through 500 meters, rather the 175. But, that's me.

I'll take the time to add that I've used more than a few 165 and 168 Sierra's in the M14, and I can say that is a good choice. I'm sure you will find several reloaders here that agree, including M1A4ME (he knows what he's doing, trust him).

Thanks to you both for the information. I'll give the 168 grain bullets a try. I figure its always a good idea to ask the experts before trying something your not sure is right. This reloading forum is a great idea. Its hard to find someone to answer reloading questions. My only other option was to just go ahead and load them and show up at the range in my level III armor and kevlar to test em. 

Of course your milage may vary

For the .308 I use 43.5 Grains of Accurate Arms 2460
This is the most accurate load I've found
A collet pulled bullet .308 from Pats Reloading
Winchester large rifle primers
and fill em on a dillon 550b.
I seat the bullet to just fit in the mags I dont remember the number

I have had really good results with the Accurate Arms 2460 in both .308 and .223 it is also rated for .30-06 but I have yet to load any with it yet.

I really like the fact I can go to the local store and buy it $99/8lbs
I usually keep an eye open for sales and then stock up I've got it for $79.99 once!
It is rated safe for the M1-A, M1 Garand, M1 Carbine and AR-15

Jason

Hello
Wolfhound I was wondering which reloading manual you are using, some have seperate data for use in M14s. (But do you think I can think of one right now?)

I am also curious on what powder you are using.

The load I shoot is a 150 gr bullet over 42.6 grs of IMR-4895 with Fed. LR primer. IMR-4895 is one of the powders recomended for the M14/M1A in Lymans 48th reloading handbook.

Though I must confess I do not have an M14 but shoot this load in a Handi Rifle.

Good Shooting.
Stumpy 

Nickle:

I bought some Hornady 150-grain polymer tipped projectiles, with a view toward loading them for my M1A.  They have a cannelure, but comparing bullet length forward of the cannelure with a USGI flat base projectile, as well as the M80 boat tail bullet, it would appear that my OAL might be a problem.

Cannelure placement determines seating depth, right?  And seating depth determines OAL, right?

I am worried I might wind up with a bunch of ammo that is "too short."  And "too short" means inaccurate, right?  As well as possibly dangerous?

HELP!


Counselor

I think Nickle is spending his two weeks training with/for Uncle Sam.

You don't have to seat to the cannelure.  I don't even crimp my rifle bullets and have never had a problem.  Not sure how much difference you are talking about (between the GI ball and the OAL of your load if you crimp in the cannelure.)  Seating the bullet deeper will increase pressures and increase the distance the bullet "jumps" from the case to the rifling (this one can negatively affect accuracy).  Even if you do not seat to the depth of the cannelure you can still do a very slight "roll" crimp on the case mouth that will not damage the bullet but will let the case mouth get a little better grip on the bullet.  I always tried to seat my bullets out just short of the magazine length.  Of course, you'll have to try setting the seating depth and then check the bullet in the chamber to make sure the bullet does not contact the rifling when the bolt locks up.  That can be as bad as being too short for increased pressure.  You can do that by chambering a round, ejecting it and examining the bullet to see if the rifling left tiny little marks on the soft (compared to the the rifling) jacket material.  If it touched, adjust the bullet seater a little deeper and try it again with a fresh bullet.

Counselor:

  +1 to what M1A4ME said.  The trick about seating the projo almost touching the rifling PROBABLY increases accuracy due to creating more uniform starting conditions for the burn.  With the projo almost immediately having to engrave, the pressure curve SHOULD be more uniform than if it has a distance to travel before engraving.  During this "jump" there is gas blow-by and bullet wobble, both of which are very difficult to duplicate consistently.

  Another way of accomplishing the same thing is to crimp in such a fashion that the bullet pull is consistent.  Conventional roll crimps are problematic, as they are very sensitive to case length variations.  I REALLY like the Lee Factory Crimp Die.  This one does not roll crimp, instead it has a collet that is squeezed down around the outside of the case, with no roll crimping shoulder.  This makes it almost indifferent to case length variations (within reason of course), and also makes for a more consistent crimp.

See:

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1184332376.4064=/html/catalog/dies-crimp.html

SoM

Just so everybody knows, what SoM and M1A4ME said is true.

Counselor, you really won't notice any significant loss od accuracy by seating at the cannelure, with an M1A. If you were shooting a REALLY accurate (as in sub 1 MOA) bolt gun, you probably would, but if you've got a 2 to 3 MOA Rifle, you won't lose much.

But, if it worries you, as was said, you really don't need to crimp, or use the cannelure. USGI M118 Match, M852 Match and M118LR ammo (or .30-06 M72 Match) doesn't have a cannelure on the bullet, and it's not crimped.

Check out the attached.  Although opinions are like you know what, this is good info that I have found to be true for the most part.

Tens and X's...

I gave that .pdf a quick look, and it looks right to me.

For data, especially using USGI Brass, check out the stuff I've got posted on the subject. It isn't from me, though I got it, it's from the US Army TM on Small Arms Ammo. It has the loads currently being used, and a few that are out of production.

M852, M80 and M118LR are in there.

Quote from: Nickle on August 10, 2007, 03:15:04 PM
I gave that .pdf a quick look, and it looks right to me.

For data, especially using USGI Brass, check out the stuff I've got posted on the subject. It isn't from me, though I got it, it's from the US Army TM on Small Arms Ammo. It has the loads currently being used, and a few that are out of production.

M852, M80 and M118LR are in there.

I have to apologize as I am new to this site, but where specifically can I find your M80 and M118LR data?  Thanks.

Quote from: wcmartin1 on August 10, 2007, 05:48:00 PM

Quote from: Nickle on August 10, 2007, 03:15:04 PM
I gave that .pdf a quick look, and it looks right to me.

For data, especially using USGI Brass, check out the stuff I've got posted on the subject. It isn't from me, though I got it, it's from the US Army TM on Small Arms Ammo. It has the loads currently being used, and a few that are out of production.

M852, M80 and M118LR are in there.

I have to apologize as I am new to this site, but where specifically can I find your M80 and M118LR data?  Thanks.

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=267.0 The bottom sticky'd thread. USGI Ammo Specifications.

Thank you, SIR!

FYI - Here is an eMail I sent to Alliant Powder and their response:

To: alliant.reloading@atk.com
Subject: Reloader 15 and 7.62 MM, Ball Special, M118: Long Range
X-Attachments: D:\Documents\GunStuff\TM 43-0001-27 7_62 NATO[M118LR].pdf;

According to your information about Reloader 15 (which I have used for years in several rifles) it is the powder that was "Selected as the powder for U.S. Military's M118 special ball long range sniper round."

Looking at the Army Ammunition Data Sheets (TM 43-0001-27) it lists the propellent as "WC 750".  Is this Reloader 15?  I would like to safely duplicate this load and would appreciate any information or load data that you can provide.

I am attaching the data sheet for your convenience.  Thank you for your cooperation in this matter.  Should you have any questions or require additional information, please advise.


And their response:

"I am not sure what the military calls our RL 15, but I have been told in the past that 44 grs was the charge.  We do not give this information out because that charge exceeds the amount recommended in the Sierra manual with their 175 gr bullet and RL 15.  According to Sierra they start with 35.8 grs @ 2200 fps and the max is 41.3 grs @ 2600 fps.  I recommend that you use the Sierra data.  Thanks for your interest in contacting us and let me know if you have any additional questions.  Have a nice day."

I think I will buy a box of loaded M118LR (expensive - $30/20 rounds) to see if my rifle (M1A Standard/Loaded/Stainless/Synthetic) likes this load as well or better than my 168 grain load (168 gr. SMK/41.5 gr. H4895) before I proceed.  This rifle has a 1 in 11" twist with 6 groove rifling.  I have heard that 6 groove rifling likes 168's better than 175's and the 1 in 11" may not stabilize 175's as well as 1 in 10" but I will have to find out for myself.

I have had success with 42 grs. of Reloader 15 and 165 gr. Nosler BT that I used in this rifle to take a whitetail buck last year and it was accurate (4/5 hits on 500 yard steel silhouette in failing light [dusk] from prone w/sling), but I have heard that this powder may be slightly slow for this action.

In addition, Nickle, thanks for your thoughts on this matter yesterday as follows:

"Well, checking Alliant's website, they show 42.8 to 45.5 gr  max loads with 168/165 grain Sierra's and 44 gr for the 180 Speer bullets. I saw what they say about RL-15 being the powder. Yeah, I'd use it, and start low, then work up. An alternative is to make M852 Match, rather than M118LR. Use 42 gr of 4895 and the Sierra 168 gr bullet. I'm real partial to this load, and up to 600 yards, it should work well. Past 600, you're going to want the 175 gr or heavier bullet."

Final Note: 

I am not condoning the use of the loads listed above in your rifle, I am only sharing my experience and thoughts using these components.  This information and data may vary considerably depending on many factors, including the components used, component assembly, the type of firearm used, reloading techniques, safety precautions practiced, etc. 

The individual accessing this site assumes the risk of safe loading practices. Failure to do so could result in severe personal injury (or death) and/or property damage.

Got a box of M118LR last week ($40/20 after shipping).  Pulled the bullet on one - the powder looks and smells just like the Reloader 15 that I had on the bench.  Weighed the charge and it was 43.5 grains according to my PACT digital scale.  I haven't shot them yet, though.

Quote from: KAUKAUNA on June 22, 2007, 10:17:32 AM
Of course your milage may vary

For the .308 I use 43.5 Grains of Accurate Arms 2460
This is the most accurate load I've found
Jason

Is Hodgdon "Varget" burn rate correct for M1-A?

I am using Hornady 150 gr. FMJ bullets.

Two Glock
Yes Varget can work well in M-14 loads. Palma shooters have a love hate relationship with it. Produces some extremely accurate loads but it has a big lot to lot variation so everytime you change lots you need to back off at least 5% and re-check your velocities.

Quote from: Joe on October 25, 2007, 12:16:14 AM
Two Glock
Yes Varget can work well in M-14 loads. Palma shooters have a love hate relationship with it. Produces some extremely accurate loads but it has a big lot to lot variation so everytime you change lots you need to back off at least 5% and re-check your velocities.

Varget has the virtue of being consistant (at least inside the same lot) weather you use it while it is 10 degrees or 110 degrees outside.

I have had to vary my sight settings as many as 5 clicks to compensate for warm ammo before varget came into my life.

I use Varget on the advice of my good brother Bravo- and he ought to know, as this is his matier (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/metier). I have been very happy with the results. about 43 grains pushing a 168 grain SMK BTHP. MMMMMMM smells like fed match 

Quote from: Joe on October 25, 2007, 12:16:14 AM
Two Glock
Yes Varget can work well in M-14 loads. Palma shooters have a love hate relationship with it. Produces some extremely accurate loads but it has a big lot to lot variation so everytime you change lots you need to back off at least 5% and re-check your velocities.

Thanks for the information.

Quote from: kool aid on October 25, 2007, 12:56:55 AM

Quote from: Joe on October 25, 2007, 12:16:14 AM
Two Glock
Yes Varget can work well in M-14 loads. Palma shooters have a love hate relationship with it. Produces some extremely accurate loads but it has a big lot to lot variation so everytime you change lots you need to back off at least 5% and re-check your velocities.

I use Varget on the advice of my good brother Bravo- and he ought to know, as this is his matier (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/metier). I have been very happy with the results. about 43 grains pushing a 168 grain SMK BTHP. MMMMMMM smells like fed match 

Thanks;

Think I'm going to try it.   I have been using H-4895 but  the local gun store seems to not stock it.  They always try to get me to buy Varget.

2 of the best powders for the .308 are Varget and 4895.

RL-15 and WW 748 are 2 more excellent choices, along with the associated powders, such as H335 and BL-C 2.

TwoGlock,

Check out the .pdf by Glen Zediker that I posted earlier in this thread.  Read the whole thing, but starting on page ten it mentions Varget among others. 

As I stated in a previous post, I have used RE15 on a limited basis in my M1A and for the most part I have found RE15 and VARGET to be almost interchangeable in several other rifles.

As with all other opinions - use your own judgement and find your own truth.

You can find the .pdf here:

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=277.msg5896#msg5896

Good luck, Sir!

That wouldn't surprise me at all.

4895, Norma N201 and H332 all could be interchanged by VOLUME at one time. THat was in a .22 PPC, .219 Donaldson Wasp or a 6mm PPC.

I wouldn't recommend it to the squeamish, or for use in anything other than a REAL STRONG bolt gun (like a Hart or Remington action), but I've seen it done.

The powders were just that close in burn rate and volume that it could be done.

There is good info about mil spec 7.62 ammo here:  http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/762mm_ammo.html

Tom

I have been using both RL 15 and Varget . Although the verdict is still out it seems that the Varget work's better with the 180 gr. or heaver rounds then the 15. The Varget also burns cleaner. This is with a Panther.  With the FAL, it defiantly work better with the Varget and 168 gr. Matchkings or mine dose. In the real world, both these powers will get the job done. I have also notice that when you start to getting up around 2900 fps you start seeing flyers.
Has anyone, seen or heard of a standard 308 168/175 gr. being push faster then this with accuracy?

www.6mmbr.com/308win.html Has some interesting loads. I have tried most of the 175 gr. loads and they work good in the Panther 308 and my FAL. They show a load for Varget 47.5 g with Sierra 110 gr. at a smoking 3200 fps. Has any one tried this load?