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M1A vs ???

Started by sparks1, May 30, 2010, 04:45:36 PM

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Old Dog

#30
June 02, 2010, 01:18:17 PM
If the receiver bridge and firing pin are in good condition it would be pretty tough to have a slam fire.  Problem is, who inspects rifles out there for the public?  As stated, in proper condition the tip of the firing pin is held back inside the bolt until the bolt rotates into the locked position - only at that point should the firing pin be able to move forward far enough hit the primer.  It does hit the primer as evidenced by the tiny dimple in the primer you'll see when you remove a chamber, but unfired, round from the rifle chamber.

This is easy to see/check - pull the receiver/action out of the stock, remove the spring guide and spring from the rifle, turn the rifle upside down, use the op rod to run the bolt into and out of the locked position.  Watch the "tail" that sticks off the end of the firing pin vs. the slot in the receiver bridge.  The tail will only line up with the slot/notch in the receiver bridge when the bolt is in the position for firing.  If your firing pin is worn or the receiver bridge improperly made then the firing pin may contact the primer too soon or with too much force.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

henschman

#31
June 02, 2010, 05:29:56 PM
My Standard model M1A shoots less than 2 MOA with surplus ammo.  I am sure it would shoot 1 MOA or less with match grade or handloaded stuff, but I've never had the occasion to try it.

The match grade versions of the M1A may be a little more accurate out of the box, but the standard is plenty good enough for me.  I went with the standard model with the regular chrome-lined barrel for barrel life, reliable feeding, and weight.

I thought about an FNAR, but yeah, they are on the heavy side, they use a proprietary mag, and they're not proven battle rifles.  And yes, they are a BAR fitted with a high-cap mag.  They are very accurate, though.

By the way, .308 ARs are service rifle-legal now, with the adoption of the M-110.  If you get one, I wouldn't recommend DPMS... they make them all with overly heavy barrels that are not good for a rifle you plan on carrying in the field.  The Rock River Arms LAR-8 is pretty interesting, though.  The price is right, and they come standard with RRA's nice 2-stage trigger.

But if I get another .308 battle rifle any time soon, it will be Kel Tec's new RFB Bullpup.  I'm just waiting for them to release the model with the 24" barrel.  They just have the 18" ones out now.  I won't be getting rid of my M1A for it, but that design looks very promising.
"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."
-- Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1819

fepowered

#32
June 02, 2010, 06:59:42 PM
Quote from: mtmisfit on June 02, 2010, 12:18:55 PM
Quote from: Colorado Pete on June 02, 2010, 12:34:08 AM
Speaking as one who had an M1 slam-fire out of battery on a Federal primer while feeding rounds from a full clip. The bolt blew back with such force that it cracked the rear of the receiver in three places.

Are you sure this was a slam fire induced by the floating firing pin and not by a high primer? The reason I ask is the firing pin on a properly functioning M1 won't protrude from the bolt face unless the bolt is rotated into battery.

You can have a slam fire yet not have an out of battery fire.  The concern is not firing out of battery but an unintended  discharge.  Commercial primers can easily be fired when used in a battle rifle with a floating firing pin.  Armalite uses a firing pin return spring to prevent this from occuring. 
"Today, we need a nation of Riflemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are
willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom."

Jungle George

#33
June 02, 2010, 07:54:42 PM
Quote from: Old Dog on June 02, 2010, 01:18:17 PM
If the receiver bridge and firing pin are in good condition it would be pretty tough to have a slam fire.  Problem is, who inspects rifles out there for the public?  As stated, in proper condition the tip of the firing pin is held back inside the bolt until the bolt rotates into the locked position - only at that point should the firing pin be able to move forward far enough hit the primer.  It does hit the primer as evidenced by the tiny dimple in the primer you'll see when you remove a chamber, but unfired, round from the rifle chamber.

This is easy to see/check - pull the receiver/action out of the stock, remove the spring guide and spring from the rifle, turn the rifle upside down, use the op rod to run the bolt into and out of the locked position.  Watch the "tail" that sticks off the end of the firing pin vs. the slot in the receiver bridge.  The tail will only line up with the slot/notch in the receiver bridge when the bolt is in the position for firing.  If your firing pin is worn or the receiver bridge improperly made then the firing pin may contact the primer too soon or with too much force.
You are right on old dog, I have shot all kinds of primers in my M1A and never had a slam fire.  I also drop the bolt on the first round to load, this is the same action as when the rifle is loading it self.  You will have misfires from not fully locking the bolt down, such as easeing the bolt forward on the first round.

JG
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.  Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."  Patrick Henry ,1778

mtmisfit

#34
June 03, 2010, 01:30:51 AM
Quote from: fepowered on June 02, 2010, 06:59:42 PM
Quote from: mtmisfit on June 02, 2010, 12:18:55 PM
Quote from: Colorado Pete on June 02, 2010, 12:34:08 AM
Speaking as one who had an M1 slam-fire out of battery on a Federal primer while feeding rounds from a full clip. The bolt blew back with such force that it cracked the rear of the receiver in three places.

Are you sure this was a slam fire induced by the floating firing pin and not by a high primer? The reason I ask is the firing pin on a properly functioning M1 won't protrude from the bolt face unless the bolt is rotated into battery.

You can have a slam fire yet not have an out of battery fire.  The concern is not firing out of battery but an unintended  discharge.  Commercial primers can easily be fired when used in a battle rifle with a floating firing pin.  Armalite uses a firing pin return spring to prevent this from occuring. 

He stated he had an out of battery slam fire, hence my question.  I know slam fires can occur but I've never had one/seen one.  I use standard CCI for almost all my handloads.
"Count it the greatest sin to prefer life to honor, and for the sake of living to lose what makes life worth having."

"Lo Que Sea, Cuando Sea, Donde Sea"

".. You MUST learn from the mistakes of others. You can't possibly live long enough to make them all yourself..."

"central planning cannot work because it is trying to substitute an individual all-knowing intelligence for a distributed and fragmented system of localized but connected knowledge."

"Process and Procedure are the last hiding place of people without the wit and wisdom to do their job properly."

Old Dog

#35
June 03, 2010, 07:19:28 AM
There are so many variables in such an incident.  The condition of the rifle (wear, cleaning, parts fit) and the load used (properly reloaded ammo, improperly reloaded ammo, factory ammo) and exactly what was going on at the time.

I used Federal bench rest primers in my M1A for almost 10 years with no issues at all.  Lately I've been using the CCI military primers since I've been "bit" by the M1 bug. 

I've never seen a slam fire or out of battery fire either but it happens.  I saw a case of one awhile back in one of those cheap old Russian rifles everyone recommends as a cheap starter rifle or a rifle to store away to give your surviving neighbors.  The guy was working the bolt and as he slammed the bolt forward to feed/chamber the round and the round went off before it was fully chambered.  Made a mess.  Bad things can happen sometimes.

An M1A isn't necessary for target shooting, for hunting, for plinking, for AQTs, for protection, etc., etc. but it is legal and it does give you a comfortable feeling when you have confidence in your rifle and your ability to use it.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
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