Project Appleseed

CMP is selling A/P rounds again. $60.00 for 192 rds in Spam can.

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!         

They have plenty....

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/8034/cmptriptour2010059.jpg

 Yeah, that's what tghey said about the HXP a year or so back. With 10 case limits the MG guys go thru it like grease thru a goose!

Quote from: Camljr on May 08, 2010, 01:42:28 AM


They have plenty....

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/8034/cmptriptour2010059.jpg

That doesn't look like "plenty" to me, considering their server almost crashed and was bogged down ALL DAY yesterday from everybody jumping in line to order.  I saw on other forums where people were trying for hours to get through to order just 2 cans.  I bet this stuff doesn't last more than a week or so at this price.

How well does AP shoot compared to standard ball?

I don't know if this is true, but I've heard it shoots better than ball, but not as accurate as match.

   Texans, be careful.  Section 46.05 of the penal code prohibits even possession of armor-piercing ammunition!

This is feel-good legislation.  I know of no concerted effort to enforce this, and many LEO's aren't even aware of it, but it's there.

Last think we want is for an Appleseeder to be arrested for a violation of a law, when he had no criminal intent.  But what a public-relations nightmare it would be, if that were to happen, especially at an Appleseed event!

Edited to add:  What with all the cross-references in law, and defenses-to-prosecution, etc., it MIGHT be legal to possess it at the place of residence, but beyond that, it gets really iffy.  Someone more versed than I, in the workings of the Texas Penal Code, is more than welcome to chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.  I'd love it if I were!

Really dunb question here, When was the federal ban on AP lifted?  Not just for importation, but possession?  I don't believe it was part of The Assult Weapons Ban but separate legislation. 

:wall:Just part of my CLEs!

Tom

 I thought the AP ban was regarding pistol ammunition, but I could be wrong on that.

The FEDERAL ban is on pistol ammunition of certain composition (steel or tungsten bullets or cores, IIRC).  It's part of the "cop-killer bullet" red herring.

My neighbor, the retired cop, asked me "What kind of bullet WON'T kill a cop?"  I couldn't answer.   


What I posted about is the TEXAS ban on armor-piercing ammunition, in any caliber.

That M2 AP that's being sold by CMP is entirely legal under federal law.  I don't know if they'll sell it for shipment to Texas, don't intend to order any to find out.

Now, figure this out, the 62-grain "penetrator" 5.56 ammo is for sale, at retail, all over the state.  What's the difference between "penetrator" and "armor piercing?"  Anything beyond the printing on the box?

I really do wish somebody would explain it to me.

Did I mention I hate feel-good legislation?

And this does connect to Appleseed.  In his book, Carlos Hathcock said that when they were using .30-06 in sniper firles in Vietnam, when the couldn't get match ammo, they used AP, because it tended to be more accurate than regular ball.  I'd like to get a few cases, for use on the FD stages at Appleseeds, but I don't dare.

Here's a good summary on the federal law...

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIG1.html

There was never a federal ban on possession of AP bullets.  The ban was against further PRODUCTION and IMPORTATION for the civilian market, kind of like how the Brady Ban worked: they banned the further production or importation in the civilian market of guns with certain features, but they never outright banned the possession of anything.  

The Federal law against AP bullets applies only to bullets that can be used in pistols, but the ATF construes it as applying to anything that a pistol was ever chambered for, which would include most common rifle calibers because of Thompson Contenders and those stock-less ARs and AKs that are legally handguns.  

The law is directed against the bullets and penetrators only, not the whole loaded cartridge... which is why it's perfectly legal to hand-load new cartridges with existing AP bullets.

The law defines AP bullets two different ways:  one definition is a bullet with a core or penetrator made entirely of a laundry list of different metals including tungsten, steel, and uranium.  Another would be a bullet with a jacket that makes up over 25% of the bullet's weight.

The law has never applied to SS109/M855, because its core is made of mixed lead and steel... it is not made ENTIRELY of any of the listed metals, like the law requires.  The ATF has also specifically exempted .30 '06 M2 AP ammo... I'm not sure why.  Maybe for the same reason, maybe just because they felt like it.

The Texas law only applies to ammo intended to be fired from a handgun and which was designed for the purpose of penetrating metal or body armor, and made to be principally fired from a handgun or revolver... so any ammo that is principally rifle ammo like .30 '06 is fine in Texas.

Now...  For the real question...
Is this reloadable?

Thanks for the answers and documented sources.  My misunderstanding of what was delineated under law v. reality was phenomenal.  I've never fired AP designated ammo, but if I come across any, it will be shot!

Thanks again to all,
Tom

Quote from: AFTERMATH on May 09, 2010, 01:15:36 AM
Now...  For the real question...
Is this reloadable?

I have some old ww2 surplus ap ammo and I have reloaded the case's I also have some not as old talon reloaded ap ammo  so I would think most likly it is reloadable ,,,how ever I am not sure what the corrosive primers do to the case's so that would be an unkowen part to me .

Wade

Some is boxer primed, some is beradin primed.  Reloadability for this batch is questionable.

Wade has a good point.........Some of this MAY have corrosive primers.  Clean that precious M1 well after firing or you may be 

EEL

 There was a list of US Govt. arsenals that had the date and lot # of when they stopped using corrosive primers printed in the American Rifleman some years back. I'm sure there are milsurp sites thar would have the info available also. The corrosive primers will not hurt anything for reloading purposes, just clean your barrel and gas system with soapy water, black powder solvent, etc. after firing. Anything to cut the salts that make it corrosive. USGI bore cleaner does it too. Then clean with your favorite nitro/copper eating commercial or? bore cleaner. The corrosive primers do not harm the brass case.
If you do not want to field strip your Garand every time after firing this stuff you can use it in your '06 bolt gun and reload it for the garand and not deal with cleaning a gas system. The only good thing about corrosive ammo is if you value your rifle it will get you to clean it every time you use it or you will suffer the consequences. FWIW  clean the bore and chamber a couple days later to make sure, then a light coat of oil. Regards, Tom.

 I was just on another site where the discussion centered on using Coca Cola as a bore cleaner to remove salt deposits. It is a mild phospheric acid that is used in rust conversion coatings. I've heard of people using coke for rust removal, it could have merit.

This ammo is for using when you are not worried about picking up your brass for reloading,
and don't care if it is gonna rust your barrel right now...  I have other ammo for that.

All moot points "sold out"

It didn't last long.  I'm glad I saw on the CMP forum Thursday night that it was going up for sale on Friday.   I spent the entire day checking the store every 10 minutes, and mine was in the first 10 orders to go through.  Good thing I had internet access on my phone was was able to monitor it throughout the day.

Managed to snag a few thousand rounds of it.   And no, I will not be reselling any.  It's all mine!   

we received successful orders from approximately 8,000 customers in the first 36 hours. Each order resulted in another outgoing email from estore acknowledging receipt of the order.

We have no way to tell how many customers tried to access estore during this time and were unsuccessful, but we estimate it was in the hundreds. We do know that there were at least another 1,000 customers who were successful in getting to estore who received the message that the club membership we had on file for them had expired.

The AP ammo is sold out and we have no reason to expect more. We apologize for the hassle and inconvenience we caused this weekend. To reduce the impact the next time we have any type of release we suggest customers (in a few weeks) email us with updated club information if there is any doubt that we may not have the latest information. On our side, we will do a better job on the pricing.

Again, our apologies. Thanks for your support and understanding.

Orest Michaels
Chief Operating Officer

I guess there wasn't enough.....

Henshman was right.  Those Texans who got any of this ordered, or who have a chance to grab any .30-06 AP don't have to worry.     

Thanks to an unnamed friend who led me through the cross-references.  Section 46.05 of the Texas Penal Code does prohibit AP ammo, but Section 46.01 says that , for the immediate purpose, "AP ammo" only means AP ammo intended for handguns.  Basically, what 46.05 SAYS isn't exactly what it MEANS.   

I guess that's why we need lawyers, to translate legalese into plain English.

Quote from: didactic on May 10, 2010, 07:58:27 AM
I guess that's why we need lawyers, to translate legalese into plain English.

If they wrote the law in plain English in the first place, then we wouldn't need lawyers hardly at all.   

QuoteIf they wrote the law in plain English in the first place, then we wouldn't need lawyers hardly at all.

Unfortunately the laws are in plain English, but the meanings of the words are not consistant with everyday common usage.  Remember Bill's response to Congress: " ...what do you mean by 'if'?" and not being held in contempt?  Legislatures and Congress when writing and reviewing laws (yeah, right!  ) use that big ol Oxford English, or Collegant English Dictionaries- you remember seeing them in school, they were 3 ft thick!

Roberts, et al, did a great job of dissecting Legislative Intent in the weight of words in Heller, take a look at McDonald v. Chicago written arguments (available generally on scotusblog.com or the scotuswiki); the context of the words are not as us unwashed use. 

On the good side, look at the state's Administrative Code for additional info- this is the interpretation of the Revised Statute, or what they meant to say, among other things.

Tom