Project Appleseed

In case the .223 reloading post I type in the other day wasn't seen...

I'd never thought about doing this before but I'm having issues with .223 (now that I have a couple new/different ARs). 

I spread lube on my lube pad (RCBS green standard one), Lee lube, smeared it as usual with my finger, laid (counted first) 30 pieces of .223 brass on the pad side by side and rolled them back and forth.  I put the Lee .223 resizing die in and ran 10 pieces of brass through it.  Not hard to resize, wiped them off and set them aside.  I took the Lee die out and put the Pacific .223 resizing die in and ran 10 pieces of brass through it.  Man were they hard to resize.  I thought I was going to twist that big RCBS press off the top of the bench.  I wiped them off and put them aside.  The I took the Pacific die out and screwed the RCBS X die .223 resizing die into the press.  Ran 10 more pieces of brass through it and it took about the same effort as with the Lee die.  I wiped the lube off them and ran each one through the new carbine.  No problem, in/out.  The cases run through the Pacific die chambered but 3 or 4 of them were a little sticky coming out.  The cases run through the Lee die were a mess.  Only about 3 or 4 of them were easy to extract and some wouldn't completely chamber.

I didn't think I'd see that much difference from die to die.  The Pacific die (by the way) was used for years to reload ammo for my Rem. M700 varmint special and my Ruger mini14 with no issues.  The Lee dies had worked for my brothers Savage varmint rifle and my vARmint rifle.

The dies can make a big difference - this isn't saying any of the dies are "bad" just that rifle chambers are different and the resizing die you have may not work for that rifle.

Good luck with yours.

Again, most chambering problems are OAL, or maybe primers not seated correctly (you removed the crimp from the LC's?)

Generally autoloaders have generous chambers. Military designs even more so. There is a difference between 308 SAAMI and 7.62Nato: surplusrifle says "The .308 go-gauge is 1.6300, the .308 no go-gauge is 1.6340[I Think This Should Read 1.6400.]  The 7.62 go-gauge is 1.6350, the 7.62 no go-gauge is 1.6405."  The 308 SAAMI drawing states chamber headspace at 1.630/1.640 min/max. I'm not sure what you are actually measuring with the Hornady gauge, but it's possible you're in spec.

Can you chamber the sized brass without a projectile? (Sized using the Lee directions)

BTW: What shellholder are you using?

What is the rifle?

The rifle is a Saiga 308 (ak action made in the Izhmash factory in Russia) Nato chamber. 

Crimp removed & primers seated just below flush. It's definitely not OAL, it's the shoulder for sure. Using a #2 Lee shell holder that came with my original dies. I double checked and it's the correct one.

Aromatic has lent me a set of of Forster dies and some imperial sizing wax and that has helped a lot. Plus a Wilson Gauge and a modified Wilson Gauge that has a spin down component that reads in thousands. Still experimenting, but so far 2 of 3 that I've resized have fit in the gauge correctly. This is all military brass and I'm pretty sure a good portion of it was fired from a MG. Some of it is still really difficult to resize. I'm getting some flex in my table so I'm going to move my press to a heavier duty table top and try again.


-=-=-=- update -=-=-=-

A little more lube and different table top makes things even easier. No problems resizing the rest of a test batch, other than I'm still getting .009 variance after resizing 29 pieces of brass.

8 won't chamber, (either .006 or greater over. A few of them measure ok on the shoulder but have a dinked rim that won't let them fit in the regular Wilson gauge)
13 chamber easily (.000 to .003 over. 2 of which are .002 too short and the rim falls below the 2nd edge on the gauge)
8 are tight/borderline (.004 to .005 over)

My Lee press is an O-frame, but maybe there is enough slop in the double threaded top piece that holds the die or something.

All of the factory ammo I have measured +002 on the modified gauge I have borrowed. Should I be getting this much variance? Just guessing I would think between a couple of thousands would be the norm, but I'm fairly new at this.


Shoulder measurements

-002    -001     0     +001     +002    +003     +004     +005     +006     +007
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1         1        2        3           5          3          5           4          3           1

Should not be that much variance in shoulder length. I use lots of Lee products but I don't have a Lee press. It seems something is moving during the resizing process. The die itself is a solid compact piece of hardened steel that shouldn't vary in size under pressure. Your press on the other hand might be flexing diagonally while the shell is being pressed into the die. Try your dies and lube on a friends press and measure the results then compare. When you get the sizing problem figured out let me know how your Siaga does with reloads. I'm a big fan of the AK and I am considering getting one myself. Hope this helps...wolfman

Last time I prepped 556 brass I got several hundred within -0.002 to -0.004.  My last suggestion is to leave the brass in the shell holder and size the brass twice while pausing at the end of the stroke.

I've actually ran some of these through two or three times. Some of them it helped, and some it didn't. I may try to anneal a small batch of case necks and see if that makes any difference. I'm almost betting that it's down on the bottom end of the brass where it's thicker that is causing the problem though, so annealing the top probably won't make a difference.

Other than buying another set of dies... maybe the small base RCBS or trying on a different press, I'm about out of ideas too.

---update----

ok.. maybe I'm starting to get it down. I went really slow on a batch of 20 and was able to get them within .004 thousands, with only a few of them having to be run through more than once. It seems narrowed down to a lube issue now. Using the imperial sizing wax with my fingers, I think I wasn't getting a consistent amount on each piece of brass. I made triple sure this time i lubed heavily all the way down on each piece and held down the press arm for a good 5 count on each one. I wonder if I used my lube pad if that would help me get the lube consistent? May have to try that tomorrow.

I recently discovered Frankford Arsenal case lube from Midway. It is an alcohol based wax in a pump spray bottle. I just dump my brass in an old sugar cookie tin and give them a few good squirts then roll them around a bit. While they are still wet take them out of the tin and place them neck up in a reloading tray so air can get around them and evaporate the alcohol. As I am picking them up I make sure the neck has some lube on it. I don't work for Midway or Frankford Arsenal, I just really like this stuff. The small base die might also solve your problem, I have to size with a RCBS X-die when loading for my M1A. That thing is brutal on brass. Keep plugging away and you will get it figured out...wolfman

Not sure but I wouldn't think the Saiga (even in 308) is chambered that tight as to want an SB die.

The saiga 308 is brutal itself on brass - the saiga-12 forum guys line the rcvr cover with rubber door guard.

spitstickler - are you able to get the contact between the die and the shell holder (are you using the Lee or the borrowed forster dies?)

I thought I read someplace about the 1-1/4 bushing having too much play in the challenger O press - maybe that is what's giving you issues. I think the fix was permanently securing the bushing (giving up on the quick change ever using LARGE dies with that press.)

Hi Spit,

Just out of curiosity,  what are the cases gaging before you size them?

First, put it all through a full length sizing die.
next put it all through a small base sizing die.
Lotsa lube!!!
Patience!!
Look at it carefully ina case length gage'

That Lake City brass is tougher than woodpecker lips! Ya gotta be patient with it but it's worth the work.
RCBS is made in China. Take a close look at the Dillon and Lee stuff.
Good luck.

Quote from: gunville on April 25, 2010, 02:48:57 AM
Not sure but I wouldn't think the Saiga (even in 308) is chambered that tight as to want an SB die.

The saiga 308 is brutal itself on brass - the saiga-12 forum guys line the rcvr cover with rubber door guard.

spitstickler - are you able to get the contact between the die and the shell holder (are you using the Lee or the borrowed forster dies?)

I thought I read someplace about the 1-1/4 bushing having too much play in the challenger O press - maybe that is what's giving you issues. I think the fix was permanently securing the bushing (giving up on the quick change ever using LARGE dies with that press.)

I'm using the Lee O press that comes with the anniversary kit with Aromatic's Forster dies.

I'm betting your right about the bushing. JB weld might fix it, but I think I may just buy a better press and use this one for decapping, etc.

Quote from: Aromatic on April 25, 2010, 10:29:42 AM
Hi Spit,

Just out of curiosity,  what are the cases gaging before you size them?

i just measured about 20 cases. The vast majority of them were .016 -.021. I found one that measured .010, and a couple at .013 & .014.


I've refined my lube and sizing "technique" enough now that I'm able to get most of them within three thousands now.  From .001 to .003 for the majority and some go easier than the rest down to .000 on the gauge. I think this press just has too much slop in it. I moved my setup on on the back porch this weekend in the shade and with the bright sunlight shining on the back fence I could definitely see a really small sliver daylight on the the ones that were .002 and .003 out. I guess I just couldn't see it inside the house. However, at this point the press didn't have anything else left in it. Running each piece of brass  2 or 3 times, I could shrink it by another thousandth or so, but it sure is tedious. Lube, size, wipe down, measure, re-lube, size, wipe down, measure, etc.

Based on the ones that aren't as far out to begin with and size easy, I'm sure the die is set at .000. However, I just can't get it to go down all the way on the majority of them. And, I am using a ton of lube now also. I have to take the die apart every 30 or so when I start getting lube dents, and I'm careful not to get any on the shoulder, but there's so much on the case it finds it way up there.

That sounds like its more work and lube than its worth, and you're working the brass quite a bit.

That's the "Challenger" press. I took a look after posting and found the reference in the reviews for the press on midway.  The guy said he tightened the bushing another half-turn.  Its probably worth a call to Lee.

There's a lot of food for thought in this thread.  I'd never considered that a press could be part of a resizing issue.  My first (and oldest) press is an old Pacific "C" type press.  I used it for everything and never had an issue (I even resized 30.06 cases with split/torn necks into .308 brass a few times).  My second press was a used RCBS "O" type press.  Both are cast iron, not aluminum (yeah, I'm one of those "steel and wood" guys for the most part).

I can see an aluminum press flexing more than a cast iron press but wonder if it would also be more likely to stretch and/or crack with less rounds through it.

Those case checker things might be okay (I bought one for 30.06, I think) but don't really use it.  Until this last little .223/AR15 issue I'd never had a problem with a piece of resized brass not chambering in a rifle.  A lot of reloading is really about fitting the reload to YOUR rifle, as each rifle can be very different from another one of the same type.

I don't know if a set of headspace gauges would help in determining whether the issue was chamber length or diameter in one or more parts of the chamber.  Remember that stuff you could melt and pour into the chamber to check the dimensions of your rifle's chamber?  I wonder if a cast from that stuff would fit into the case checking "die" or if it would tell you anything useful?  Hey, was that stuff called "cerro safe" or something like that??  I can't quite rememeber.

Yeah, OD, the stuff you are thinking of is indeed called Cerrosafe.  It comes in 1/2lb or 1lb ingots, melts at an extremely low temperature, and gives an excellent representation of the chamber of your rifle.  The cheapest I have found it is $25/lb, from http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,1143.html

Any semi-competent gunsmith should have a chamber gauge for .308, and they aren't exactly hard to use..  This will at least tell you if your chamber is within spec.

Once you have ruled out the chamber as being the culprit, which, IMO, is the least likely of all possible causes, you can start looking at your reloading setup. 

A case gauge is a reloaders friend, as it allows you to manufacture ammo that meets SAAMI specifications, and will allow your ammo to chamber in any rifle chambered for that cartridge.  If you only have one rifle of that size ammunition, then it is not as significant, and not sharing your ammo with friends also mitigates these potential issues.

Doing this (making ammo to SAAMI specs) does negate some of the benefit to reloading- you are no longer making ammo that is tailor-made to your rifle, but instead sizing the brass to fit some middle-of-the-road chamber, which will end up having loose tolerances. 

YOU need to decide which is more important for you- having ammo that is 100% reliable in any rifle chambered for it, or having ammo that is tailor-made for your rifle, but may or may not function in other rifles. 

I have chosen to make ammo that will fit in any rifle chambered for it, thus alleviating the "which rifle did I make this lot for" question years down the road.

Well, I got a set of RCBS small base dies in the mail today and gave them a whirl. Same deal... closest I could get was around .004 in variance. I tried it without all the guts inside the die as well. Same thing again. I'm thinking t's gotta be the press.

I had this problem back in the 70's when I first started loading.  I was using a lyman C press and it was flexing enough that the very bottom of the case, close to the rim and was being sized unevenly.  You said you have an O press it may be flexing to one side, watch it as you reach the bottom of the stroke and see if it is even all the way around, your die has to touch the shell holder when resizing.  if that isn't it I would say your chamber is too tight.

JG

Just to follow up on this, as many of you indicated, the press was indeed the culprit in this situation.  

A new Forster co-ax solved all the problems for me and is very consistently resizing my brass now.  

Thanks to all who helped me through this. Always something new to learn.

I got started reading this thread and couldn't wait to find out how this mystery was resolved.  A real page turner, so to speak. 

Going from a Lee to a Forster press is a big jump.  I guess the lesson learned is that it can be less expensive to buy quality tools from the outset.  It's just hard to know whether you're paying more than necessary to accomplish the task at hand. 

I'm a new reloader too, and have bought twice more times than I care to admit.  Now I find myself defaulting to the more expensive option to avoid buying twice - at least that's how I justify it when my wife questions the price tag. 

I found a great resource for reloading that includes advice regarding the various equipment options - Handloading for Competition by Glen Zediker.  I wish I had found it before I started gearing-up. 

Hey, Spit...

Glad to hear you got things sorted out. I'm been reading along and holding back comment, waiting to see what turned up.
was a little concerned, since I'm fairly sure that's the brass you got from me. More so because I have yet to start processing the portion of that brass that I held back for myself. Now I know what not to do....   


BTW, could you shoot me a PM  regarding that really sweet brochure POP was waving around at WSMR?

Regards,
Longshot

Glad you got it figured out Spit.  Sometimes you just have to have the right tools for the job 

Quotei just measured about 20 cases. The vast majority of them were .016 -.021. I found one that measured .010, and a couple at .013 & .014.

Are the numbers you give from cases shot from your rifle?

I don't like buying twice either but no regrets in this situation. As far as Lee equipment goes, I'm very thankful that they offer a low-cost alternative to get started with reloading. If the initial cost would have been much higher and without a mentor to guide me when I was starting out, I probably would have never started reloading. LEE doesn't make the best stuff, but with their kit, a set of dies, components, and reloading manual, I was able to try reloading for under $300.

The kit served me well and has reloaded some extremely accurate .223 ammo for my AR. However, I know now that with the inexpensive price there are limitations in capability. Once I get to a point where I have replaced everything in the LEE kit, I will probably give it to someone else who wants to give reloading a try.

Quote from: douglas34474 on June 04, 2010, 09:24:09 AM

Quotei just measured about 20 cases. The vast majority of them were .016 -.021. I found one that measured .010, and a couple at .013 & .014.

Are the numbers you give from cases shot from your rifle?

No, those numbers are from what I received it... Once fired.

Quote from: Longshot on June 04, 2010, 12:50:13 AM
Hey, Spit...

Glad to hear you got things sorted out. I'm been reading along and holding back comment, waiting to see what turned up.
was a little concerned, since I'm fairly sure that's the brass you got from me. More so because I have yet to start processing the portion of that brass that I held back for myself. Now I know what not to do....  


BTW, could you shoot me a PM  regarding that really sweet brochure POP was waving around at WSMR?

Regards,
Longshot

Hey Longshot! Yes, it is that batch of brass that I'm finally getting around to messing with. No worries here. I'm still working on finding "the" load for my rifle, but I imagine this batch of brass is going to last me a loooong time.

Quote from: Aromatic on June 04, 2010, 09:00:22 AM
Glad you got it figured out Spit.  Sometimes you just have to have the right tools for the job  

Special thanks to you, Aromatic for lending me dies, tools, etc.  The Mo's gauge is awesome!  (I still need to catch that guy that makes them and get one for 30.06, .223 and for .308.) Much easier to use than than the Hornady headspace kit that attaches to your calipers, and more consistent on the readings as well.

I've attached a couple of pics of the different gauges used throughout the process. I'd never heard of the Mo's gauge until Aromatic hooked me up. A super handy tool, that's easy to use and gives you a specific number in thousands to measure cartridge headspace.

good to hear you got it figured out. 

Its funny how some "stuff" works great for some rifles but not for others.  Who do you blame, the "stuff" or the rifle?

Quote
I don't like buying twice either but no regrets in this situation. As far as Lee equipment goes, I'm very thankful that they offer a low-cost alternative to get started with reloading. If the initial cost would have been much higher and without a mentor to guide me when I was starting out, I probably would have never started reloading. LEE doesn't make the best stuff, but with their kit, a set of dies, components, and reloading manual, I was able to try reloading for under $300.

The kit served me well and has reloaded some extremely accurate .223 ammo for my AR. However, I know now that with the inexpensive price there are limitations in capability. Once I get to a point where I have replaced everything in the LEE kit, I will probably give it to someone else who wants to give reloading a try.

I stand by Lee's products for the novice reloader.  I think their C presses are probably fine for pistol rounds (at least it has so far in my .38 cowboy reloading).  Great cheap way to get the handle on the process of reloading.  Given your problems and my own with Lauren's match AR, I would say that rifle reloading (at least for bottlenecked cartridges) requires higher end presses.

Quote
Special thanks to you, Aromatic for lending me dies, tools, etc.  The Mo's gauge is awesome!  (I still need to catch that guy that makes them and get one for 30.06, .223 and for .308.) Much easier to use than than the Hornady headspace kit that attaches to your calipers, and more consistent on the readings as well.

I've attached a couple of pics of the different gauges used throughout the process. I'd never heard of the Mo's gauge until Aromatic hooked me up. A super handy tool, that's easy to use and gives you a specific number in thousands to measure cartridge headspace.

I would be interested in ordering some of those too for .223 and 30.06. 

Quote from: spitstickler on June 04, 2010, 12:23:33 PM
I don't like buying twice either but no regrets in this situation. As far as Lee equipment goes, I'm very thankful that they offer a low-cost alternative to get started with reloading. If the initial cost would have been much higher and without a mentor to guide me when I was starting out, I probably would have never started reloading. LEE doesn't make the best stuff, but with their kit, a set of dies, components, and reloading manual, I was able to try reloading for under $300.

Yeah, same here. If it wasn't for some old farts (mentors) in my area I won't know about much. Still a baby when it comes to reloading. But I'll say heck yeah as to making some accurate ammo. Got some reloads now that are better than even Black Hill's so called match grade. We had done some .223 jacketed but with soft nose and it fed with no problems. Good expansion, even better than hollow point, and talk about accurate, sheesh. Great stuff.

Now if I could only get enough 308 brass dangit.

Oh, and no offense to old farts, I'm one myself.

Hi spitstickler,
 I have been following this thread with much interest as well. I'll be loading 7.62x51 for my M1A as soon as I get my hands on some brass. Like you were in the beginning, I am using mostly Lee equipment. Currently loading only .303 right now and as others have said, producing some real nice rounds with it!
 So if your problems have been largely solved, may I shamelessly hijack your thread!?

Questions;

  I'm looking at the Forster Redding small base die, any experience with this die?

 What about Machine gun once fired LC '05 brass? I know where some is available for a reasonable price.

Like the rest of us, I'm just trying to get the most for my $$  

(if this thread hijack is not acceptable, I'll move it or start over!)

Thanks

Andy

If I may...

I use the SB die for .223 AR reloading and find it to be most excellent. (After using a regular .223 sizing die that after sizing brass they would not chamber in my rifle.)

MG brass is okay to use...BUT a SB die is recommended for resizing as the MG brass expands because the chamber on them is larger than a rifle. This is what I read, I have no firsthand experience with it. Nor with a MG...durn it. Too expensive for this working mans wallet. Tho' I did get to shoot a WW1 water cooled MG at the range once. Waaaaaaaaay too much fun. Winter time and the guy filled it with H2O and anti-freeze. Trouble was the seals leaked, so as it fired pink spray flew everywhere.

not every chamber is the same.  My M1A has a match barrel (and therefor most likely a "match" chamber) and standard dies have always worked for it.  I've picked up machine gun brass and resized it for my rifle in my Pacific (Hornady) dies.

If you need small base dies then you need them but not all rifles do need them.  I have no experience with them but some folks say if you don't need them you are shortening the life of your brass because they size smaller than necessary for your chamber.  Who knows for sure, just what I read.

Folks also say you won't get the life out of machine gun brass you will out of rifle brass but I've not had that problem.  After my recent experience with the new AR I'm going to start using my RCBS X dies.  The brass resized with them chambers in the new AR when the brass resized in the Pacific and Lee dies has several failures to chamber out of every batch.  Many folks are also reporting increased case life when using the X-dies.

Many of us older reloaders learned the hard way as I said I started out with a lyman C press and it did okay till I got to the 7.62.  I used small base dies in my M1A for several years and then tried regular dies and they did okay.  The smaller you size the brass the less times you will load them.  If you use a 30 cal necking die on cases fired in your rifle they will last much longer, but they will not work in any other rifle unless it's chamber is the same as yours or smaller.  I have a 300 Win Mag. 700 Remington that is what I do to it. 
   Your not hijacking info here, us old timers are passing it on so you don't make the same mistakes we did.  We have been to the school of hard knocks, learned the hard way.  They didn't have internet when I was young ( I know Gasp!!) reloaders were few and far between, so you had to read or figure out the hard way.  So we pass this on to others to save you time and money, I too have learned a lot here on the forum.  The internet is good stuff a lot better than smoke signals.

JG 

Thanks guys for the replies.
   I think I'm going to throw $15 on the roulette wheel and start with the Lee die. If it doesn't work, I'll only be out that much, and after case length and headspace gauges it shouldn't hurt too bad...hopefully...

As spitstickler did, I'll post my progress and mistakes here (not that spit made any mistakes, but I'm bound to!)

Andy