Project Appleseed

Quote from: ItsanSKS on March 18, 2010, 03:50:44 PM
Hello all, I hope you can explain to me whats going on here...


All cases were sized to proper specs on an RCBS X-Die, then trimmed to a length of 1.747" +- .001" on a Giraud case trimmer.
The SS109 proj. were seated to the cannelure, and a modest crimp added via a Lee Factory Crimp Die.
The only variable changed was the powder charge, and these were all hand-measured for consistencies sake.

Check your crimp die.  The Lee factory crimp die works off of a collet; pull a bullet from a crimped case and mic the dia to see if you have over swaged the neck into the bullet. For mass reloading consistency the crimp die that came with your die set can't be beat. The only thing that comes into play then is the consistency of trim length. Use just enough crimp to get the job done and reset the crimp die when the cases stretch.  The Lee die works best with concentric turned necks and only enough pressure to hold the bullet in place.  I use the Lee for match ammo but I spend much more time prepping cases than shooting at that point. 

1. is that the 62 grain military bullet with the steel penetrator?  If so they are far from the best choice for small groups.  Why are the "surplus"?
2. SD in velocity doesn't always mean small groups.  I have a rifle that seems to really like that powder with 45 grain bullets, no idea what the SD is with them as I never check velocty, just group size
3. while I'm not convinced about the theory myself I've seen several posts where folks have stated that with some rifle, some bullets, some loads, etc., etc., etc., will require a certain distance from the muzzle for the bullet to "go to sleep", meaning the group size may be larger at some distance from the barrel than it is even FARTHER from the barrel - large groups at 100 yds. but smaller at 200 or 300, etc.  I have never seen this in any rifle or any load I've ever shot.  Seems counter to everything we "talk" but there are folks out there who say this can happen for some loads/rifles.  Have you shot yours farther out yet?  Do you have access to a range where you can shoot farther out?
4. Usually magnum primers are recommended for ball powders and cold temperatures.  Many years ago the reloading manuals stated that usually magnum primers result in higher pressure as compared to standard primers and often in less accurate grouping.
5. do you need to crimp?  so far I'm not crimping and not having issues

I've got a few hundred of these bullets, too. Yeah, surplus.  So let us know what you find out.

Good luck.

Hah!!  Sooner or later, something "bad" happens.  After all that talk on the .308 loading (recent thread) posts about Lee dies (me included) I just "found" a problem with all these .223 rounds I've been loading.

I got several sets of Lee dies a couple of years ago in my brothers reloading stuff.  I've used all of them in the last couple of years (.45 acp, 44 mag., .308 and 30.06, oh, and .223).  I resize brass, try it in my rifle (chamber a few rounds, measure one, right the number down and just repeat each time I reload that caliber/combination.

I recently built a new AR15 with some different features from my previous rifles and I've been itching to take it to the range but haven't been able to the last few weeks.  I got it out today, went outside, pointed it in a safe direction, made sure the safey was on, inserted a full magazine (to run through the rifle by hand to make sure it chambered/extracted/ejected okay and guess what?  The round that fit my 20" flat top just fine won't chamber in the new carbine. 

I got the calipers out and got to measuring.  I ran 10 pieces of .223 brass through the Lee resizing die and then through the old Pacific resiziing die.  I wiped the lube off and measured the diameters at 3 spots down the case.  The base is the same but the area right below the shoulder is 0.008" larger in diameter on the brass resized in the Lee die.  There is also a slight difference in the shoulder angle but I don't have anything to measure that with.

Looks like the 20" flat top has several years worth of ammo loaded up for it.  I just gotta get to the pile, pull out the .223 cans and label them so I know what rifle they're for.  When I resize them next time it'll be through the Pacific dies and I'll check them in all the rifles next time.  Of the rifles I checked today 3 had chromed chambers/bores and one did not.  The 20" flat top they chamber/extract from manually has a chrome chamber/bore.

Also gotta check and make sure the brass resized with the Pacific dies fits the other 20" barreled ARs.  I checked the new carbine and they worked fine in it.

Check, check, recheck and now I've got something new to check.

Its funny, those Lee dies are what my brother used to reload .223 ammo for his Savage .223 Rem. varmint rifle.  Hard to imagine AR15's having tighter chambers than a very accurate Savage varmint rifle.

Sorry to have missed your reply, Old Dog. 

The 62gr bullets are indeed the military spec ones, steel core 'penetrator' and all.  These were purchased from Wideners as factory over-runs. 

Retried the same loads with the Wolf 223 Mag. primer, and the groups shrank dramatically.  Best group was just over 1.25" at 100yds. 

While I may not 'need' a crimp, my idea was to mimic the factory M855 round as closely as possible, and the M855 is crimped... I tried the loads (wolf SR primer) without a crimp, and there was no noticeable change in group size. 

Testing for this load was put on hold for a while, as I recently traded the M4 16" upper for an Armalite A2 HBAR.  Had to break it in, and am now back to the drawing board as far as my loads go.  I'm just glad that I hadn't begun 'mass production' of a load yet, only to find it wasn't suited to the 20" rifle.

Your recent issues with the cases not fitting from one rifle to the next is something that I was worried about, too; I chose to buy a Case Gauge, and have set my dies accordingly- the case gauge mimics the minimum SAAMI specs, and if a case will 'chamber' in the case gauge, it should chamber in *any* rifle that has a chamber within SAAMI specs.  Sure, this doesn't allow for optimal head space for YOUR rifle, but it eliminates the problem of my ammo not chambering in any rifle chambered for .223

Well, a little more info (no measurements, just info).

I got about 30 pieces of brass out of the bag, lubed it on the pad, set up the Lee resizing die (.223 of course) and ran the 10 pieces through, wiped them off with a rag and started trying to chamber them.  Some wouldn't allow the bolt to move fully forward, on some I had to "beat" the charging handle to the rear to get the brass out, some (a few) chambered and extracted fine.

I put the Pacific die in the press and ran 10 pieces through it.  I thought I was going to rip the corner off the table.  Very had to resize the brass.  Wiped the cases off with a rag, starting running them through the chamber, every one chambered no problem, 3 had to be "tapped" out of the chamber by wacking the op rod.

I put the RCBS X-die in the press and ran 10 pieces through it.  They didn't take anywhere near the same force the Pacific dies required, more like the Lee dies or maybe even slightly easier.  All 10 pieces went through the chamber like you know what through a goose.

That much difference between the dies (Pacific is Hornady by the way, in case not everyone knows it), the amount of force required to make the shell holder "kiss" the bottom of the resizing die and chambering/extracting the brass.

Looks like the Lee dies go in the box with a coat of oil on them and will end up on the top shelf in the corner.  I'm going to use the RCBS dies to resize a few hundred pieces of .223 brass, then load them and shoot them in the new rifle to see how they do.

Oh, some rounds I'd loaded up for the vARmint rifle and never got around to shooting (15 with IMR4695, 15 with Varget and 15 with IMR 4198) went through the new rifle like you know what through a goose, too.  In the past I did not record info on the reloading equipment I used (I will in the future) as I only recorded the date, the primer used, the powder used and how many grains, the bullet used and how many grains, the caliber and the number of rounds loaded.

Old Dog,
You ever pop those rounds in a case gauge? I picked up a Wilson for my .223 and .308 and as long as they went in case gauge no problem, they went into a rifle with no problem.
MB

Don't have one in .223.  I bought one in either 30.06 or .308, popped a couple of pieces of brass in/out of it, went hmmmm, oiled it up and put it somewhere on a shelf or cabinet in the reloading shed.  I may get one for the .223 some day but what kind of guarantee would I have that one was any more consistent/in spec than the reloading dies or the rifle chambers.

3 sets of dies - two sets work for all but two of my rifles

are the dies "bad" or are those two rifles chambers just a little too tight???  I need to buy some factory ammo and try in them just for grins and giggles.

We'll see.

Quote

Brass needs to be trimmed before using an X Die. Did the bullets seat with the same pressure? Thinking uneven neck tension. I just started using magnum primers for ball powders, haven't documented results personally but read somewhere it worked. We will see...Wolfman

I'm a fairly new reloader and this has been an interesting thread seeing others observations. After reloading various pistol rounds getting started with .223 took some growing pains to feed 3 different AR's.

We bought RCBS Comp. dies and initialy didn't have any feeding problems. We shoot a good bit and have a few thousand rounds on hand so I didn't try to keep track of number of times individual cases had been reloaded. Then we started getting an occasional feed problem confirmed in more than one gun. If one FTF in one gun, it FTF in another.

This issue was finally traced down to bases weren't being sized well and after a few times being reloaded wouldn't chamber fully. I started making sure to set the sizing die down far enough to get a solid cam over on the rock chucker and bought a Wilson case gauge. Haven't had a problem since. Using the Wilson gauge I'll find maybe 1 out of 100 that's a bit tight and I lay them aside to run through a gun when time isn't critical and FTF isn't an issue. I've found even ones that won't fully fall into the case gauge still feed without issue.

Well, due to issues with that new AR I bought some Forster .223 Remington headspace gauges.

We sat down in the kitchen floor yesterday (my wife totally understands, either that or she's used to it after 33 years) and one by one, tore apart 4 AR15's.

Rifle#1 - A2 flat top with the HBAR contour barrel and chromed bolt/bolt carrier, chromed bore/chamber - the Go gauge allowed the bolt to close easily (as it should).  Next was the No Go gauges and the rifle chamber swalled it like it was another Go gauge.  The Field reject gauge did not allow the bolt to close.  This rifle has maybe 500 rounds through it.

Rifle#2 - 16" barrel, carbine/flat top with a "skinny" profile barrel that has chrome plated bore/chamber and BCM ion bond coated bolt/bolt carrier - The go gauge allowed the bolt to close easily.  Next was the No Go gauge and the bolt didn't even come close to closing.

Rifle#3 - another A2 flat top with the HBAR contour barrel that has a chrome plated bore/chamber with a standard parkerized bolt/bolt carrier  - the Go gauge allowed the bolt to close easily.  The bolt did not even come close to closing on the No Go gauge.

Rifle#4 - another A2 flat top with the HBAR contour barrel with a non-chrome bore/chamber and standard parkerized bolt/bolt carrier - the Go gauge allowed the bolt to close easily.  The bolt would not come anywhere near closing with the No Go gauge.

Three chome bore/chambered rifles with three different type of coated bolts/bolt carriers and one non- chromed bore/chambered rifle with a standard bolt/bolt carrier.  Three of them gave pretty much the same results while my 20" barreled rifle has a "sloppy" chamber. 

No wonder it was chewing through the reloads the new rifle wouldn't "eat".  Well, lots of .223 shooting to do to turn that brass around with the new RCBS X-dies.

Have a good one.  And remember.  No matter how much they look alike on the outside, they can be very different inside.

Well, got out there yesterday and started going through some of my ammo cans of .223 reloads.  About 1 in 4 (so far) will not drop into and back out of the headspace gauge/checker for reloads.  These were resized/reloaded with the Lee .223 dies.

I checked right at 20 of the rounds that would not fit properly into the headspace checker by inserting them in a magazine and running them through the "loose" chambered AR15.  No issues, they all fed/chambered slick as could be.  I'll have to shoot them through that rifle and then reload them with the RCBS dies.

I also noticed something else "funny".  The rounds I've reloaded so far fit just fine (small amount of clearance between the bullet tip and the front/inside of the magazine) in CProducts stainless steel magazines, PMags and D&H (??) aluminum magazines.  They are not fitting well in CProducts aluminum magazines.  This along with having 3 of the last 10 new ones fail to feed the last two rounds out of the magazine (first 28 feed fine, the last two give me nose up misfeed in 3 different AR's so I know its the magazine) is just more reason not to buy more CProducts aluminum 30 round magazines.

Have a good one.

Yep, we run RCBS Comp dies for ours with a Wilson case guage. Even rounds that won't quite sit flush in the case guage still chamber fine but they are rare, like 1 or 2 out of every hundred. I don't track how many times the cases have been loaded and I suspect those are ones that have been shot 5 or 6 times. I also suspect a small base die would cure that issue but since it hasn't caused any feed problems I haven't had the urge to fix what works. I'm very impressed with the accuracy potential these poodle guns are capable of with handloads worked up for each gun. Not so much with factory ammo. When some say you can take 3 or 4 identical guns and one might be a "shooter". (using factory ammo) In every situation I've seen, it's the ammo, not the gun....O.L.

Have had good luck reloading my AR for HP matches with Lee dies.  I do check each finished round with a case gauge.  I also limit my reloads to seven per case with the AR, but they aren't nearly as hard on brass as my '14 or M1 which I limit to five resizings.  

I shoot 77 gr SMK's or Nosler Custom Competition bullets across the course as follows:  COAL of 2.255" with XX.X gr of RE15 in Winchester brass with CCI #41 primers for my Fulton Armory 1 in 8 twist A2.  This load is capable of 1/2 MOA in my rifle - better than I can usually hold it.  

As always - this load is safe in my rifle, but may not be in yours.  Use this data at your own risk.  YMMV



Modified to remove the actual powder charge.

Quote from: Nickle on June 14, 2007, 04:08:17 PM
Put your questions and comments about the .223/5.56 in this thread.

Anyone have a load for the Barnes 62gr TSX?  These are the longer all-copper projectiles so I'm pretty sure I can't use normal 62gr FMJ recipes.

I've got H335 and BLC(2) on hand and want to stick with them for now.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/223RemingtonWeb.pdf

Of the Barnes web site, downnear the bottom of the page is a little bit of data for the 62 grain TSX bullet.

Looks like they used TAC and Varget

Quote from: Old Dog on February 16, 2011, 07:53:13 PM
http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/223RemingtonWeb.pdf

Of the Barnes web site, downnear the bottom of the page is a little bit of data for the 62 grain TSX bullet.

Looks like they used TAC and Varget

Yes, but I don't keep either of those powders.  I do have quite a bit of H3335 and BLC(2) though, was hoping someone had a load worked up for one of them.

For any powder you have, contact the manufacturer and give them your lot number and the bullet weight to see if they have something to start with.

I have settled on using either Ramshot TAC or Winchester 748 these days.

748 for the lighter weight bullets, TAC for long range/heavy bullets.

For "plinker" loads, the 748 with a 55gr FMJ Hornady or pull down bullet works fine.

For more long range work, TAC with either a 75 gr (Priv or Hornady) or 77gr (Sierra or Nosler) work quite well. Ramshot had load data that will "duplicate" the infamous Mk262 in NEW Lake City cases. Do be aware, this is HOT ammo and not for 223 chambered guns.

As others have stated, read all warning labels and start out with the "staring" loads.

Please don't damage your prize rifle by sending it to an early grave... support the 2A by taking care of your rifle.

I use 26gr of BLC2 for the 69 gr Hornaday HPBT moly bullets and 25 gr of the same for the 75 gr A-max moly.  Safe in my guns don't know about with yours.   With all things done properly you should be safe starting with 23 gr of the BLC and work up from there.

I've never reloaded before and plan on picking up some gear to reload ar-15 rounds.  I have a few buckets of brass saved.  I have a few questions:

1.  I've sorted them by anything that says 223rem and eveything else.  That usuall says lc something or other.  I'm assuming that the LC is 5.56 and anything .223rem is marked with that on it.  Is this a safe assumption?

2.  I'd like to load the 62gr bullet since I have a 1-9 barrel.  Can the .223Rem  shoot the 62gr bullet?

3. I've been told to get a single stage press to start with.  The Lee presses look reasonable.  I also have 30-06 I'd like to reload (lots of hxp brass).  Is this a good choice in presses?

I reload all .223 comercial and 5.56X45 surplus brass with my .223 Remington dies.  Most of my rifles do fine with Pacific or Lee .223 Remington dies.  I have one very picky (tight chamber) AR15 that seems to need the RCBS X dies.  So I guess I'll resize all my brass with the X dies.

The Lee press should be fine.  I've used one to resize a lot of .223 brass and even more pistol brass.

For the suplus 5.56 brass you may find some has a crimp around the primer.  You'll need something to remove that crimp in order to insert the new primers.  I use an RCBS primer pocket swager but lots of other folks recommend more expensive options.

You'll need a case trimmer at some point.  I have a nice rotary trimmer made by Forster but I find myself using the really cheap Lee case trimmer and a cordless drill.  However, the Lee setup seems to wear out after a few hundred pieces of brass.  I've been through three of them this year.  I'll probably go back to the Forster, it doesn't seem to every wear out.

I also like the Lee primer tool.  I've primed thousands of pieces of brass with mine and its still going strong.

Buy yourself at least two reloading manuals and even 3 or 4 is better.  There is always lots of info in one thats not in the others.  Different loading data, too.  Different brass, different ammo, different powders, etc.

Good luck with it.  Its one of my more enjoyable hobbies.  Now if I could just find a good place to shoot as much as I reload.

Hello,
I've searched this site and many others for info on 75gr and 77gr loads for AR platforms (and have tried many of them) yet can't get groups under 1 1/2 inches at 100 meters. Any general thoughts on things to look at and adjust?

 If you've tried reconmmended and listed accuracy loads, maybe look at the rifle. There are some AR's they are not MOA capable. If a 9" twist this cold be some of it.

What type of sighting system do you have? Low power/coarse reticle may be more difficult to fire well regularly.

Is there any perceptible 'wiggle' between the upper and lower receiver? There are drop in wedges to take up the play. I've seen others use shim stock between upper and lower to remove the play. This problem mostly on Colt manufacture rifles.

When you grasp the lower receiver, try to twist the buttstock around the buffer tube. If the screw is loose there could be play there. now take the screw out and remove the stock from the buffer tube. If an A2 buttstock you'll see a small square boss on the stock that fits into a square hole in the receiver. A small o ring or some silicone applied there and tightened down will remove the play in the assembled lower.

Just some ideas, quick to look at and maybe fix.

Quote from: TOMINCT on September 02, 2017, 05:58:54 PM
If you've tried reconmmended and listed accuracy loads, maybe look at the rifle. There are some AR's they are not MOA capable. If a 9" twist this cold be some of it.

What type of sighting system do you have? Low power/coarse reticle may be more difficult to fire well regularly.

Is there any perceptible 'wiggle' between the upper and lower receiver? There are drop in wedges to take up the play. I've seen others use shim stock between upper and lower to remove the play. This problem mostly on Colt manufacture rifles.

When you grasp the lower receiver, try to twist the buttstock around the buffer tube. If the screw is loose there could be play there. now take the screw out and remove the stock from the buffer tube. If an A2 buttstock you'll see a small square boss on the stock that fits into a square hole in the receiver. A small o ring or some silicone applied there and tightened down will remove the play in the assembled lower.

Just some ideas, quick to look at and maybe fix.

TOMINCT,

- This is a 1/8 twist Colt competition rifle.
- Optics are a simple Leupold VX II 2-7 power. It is on the low side for bench work.
- Upper and lower seem to be very tight compared to the A2 and M4's we used in the service, but maybe there is more wiggle than I picked up on?
- The adjustable stock to buffer tube is a decent fit but still has some slop. Buffer tube is tight. I do rest the toe of the stock on the rear bag and have questioned how solid this perch is. Maybe a one piece rest would be better?

What is most aggravating is not being able to determine if the problem is me, the rifle, or the load. Sure makes bolt guns more enjoyable to work up.

Thanks for your help. I will start at the basics again and try some of my previous loads.

Twist Rate and barrel length are important when selecting a heavier bullet.

Your setup seems perfectly fine for a 75 or 77 grain bullet.

What is your load?

I shoot SUB MOA with 77s out of my rifle. 

My load:
77 grain Sierra Match King
24.0 of RL-15
COAL 2.258"
Wolf Primed brass Or....CCI BR4 primer

I have read your equipment list, and it seems more than adequate to stabilize a 77 grain bullet.

Have you scored a Riflemans score on the AQT?

I would lean more to your position, than the ammo.

Do you have any friends that can shoot well?  Have them give it a try.  I have done that before on an "off day" (day I just wasn't feeling it)....and eliminated me.

Have you tried a lead sled?

Wiggle between upper and lower, they all have it.  I have not had accuracy suffer notably because of that.  Try an accuwedge if that concerns you.

Read this post as well:
https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=52022.0

R/
Chris

IF you can eliminate as many variables in the system, (meaning you), and it still won't do better than 1.25 MOA at 100 M, then it is likely an equipment issue.

Likely a barrel issue.

How many rounds down the barrel?

How do you maintain the barrel?

Were it my rifle, and I eliminated all variables and still printing larger groups than I am used to I would....

Clean chamber
Using JB Bore Paste with Kroil and VFG pellets, remove most fouling per the JB instructions

Try it again.

If it is still showing large groups.  Time to replace that barrel.

If replacing barrel....highly recommend a match grade heavy barrel for the accuracy you seem to be looking for.

Is your barrel Free Floated?

If it is not....there may lie the reason for the larger groups. 

Lastly....this I just remembered.

I'm assuming your barrel is free floated, as you say it is a Colt Competition rifle.

I have a shooting partner, that is a High Master in NRA HP.  He was putting up some awful large groups at 600 yards.  Not at all like him to do that.

Guess what it was?

The FLOAT tube came loose.  It can and has happened.

That would cause an issue with accuracy.

Not sure if your rifle has a float tube, or....if it has a quad rail with free floating barrel nut. 

Float tube removal, typically requires a Ford wrench, and heat!  LOL

Couldn't believe my friends came loose...but that was the culprit.  Easy enough to check.

Remove handguards, and see if float tube can be loosened by hand.  Or...if a quad rail....remove it and see if barrel nut can be moved by hand.  If so..., tighten em....and try again.


R/
Chris

Messer,
Have you tried 200 meter groups? there are rare occasions where groups at two hundred pretty much the same as 100 meters.
Might be, a parallax issue, unlikely with the low power quality scope your using.
Might be, the bullet will settle into a more stable flight given a little more air rubbing on it.

I too have a Colt Match/Target. It is an HBAR, but it is not free floated. Like navybowhunter suggested, that could be part of the issue.
aj

This thread got a little old on me. Sorry for the delay. Thanks for all the input. I changed out the little Leupold for a big Leupold and groups fell together. 75gr ELD's on top of Varget are working very well. Thanks again for your help.

I'm getting into reloading and I'd like to get some advice from fellow Appleseeders. 

My immediate goal is to create a couple of long range rounds for my AR-platform rifle with a 20" 1:7 barrel using Sierra 77 gr bullets (#9377T).  The completed round should be able to load from the magazine

Questions:

• To crimp or not to crimp?  I've seen both recommendations in this thread, but it's been a while.  What is the current thinking?  If it matters, the die set I purchased from Redding includes a crimp die.
• Should brass which is less than 1.760" be trimmed?  Most of my brass is 1st firing (my rifle) Federal XM193.  After resizing, most cases are > 1.760".  This brass will definitely get trimmed to 1.750".  I have a limited amount of match-grade Hornady brass, also 1st firing in my rifle.  After resizing, I measured 10 cases; all but one was < 1.760" and that case measured 1.7605". 

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Jon.