Project Appleseed

I've not been reloading all that long.. A year and a half or so. Mostly 223 for an AR and some .30 cal for bolt rifles. I just started venturing into .308 for an autoloader and have run into something I haven't encountered before. (Brand new to .308 and haven't reloaded this caliber for anything yet.) I'm using Lee dies, to full-length resize some LC brass, and I'm not able to get them to chamber and lock down.

Following the instructions on the die set, I put my shell holder in place, raise the ram and twist the die down to where is touches the shellholder. Then lower the ram and add another 1/4 to 1/3 turn to the die and lock it in place. But the dang thing won't chamber.

I bought the hornady headspace gauge kit to measure against several flavors of stock ammo and sure enough, I'm not pushing the shoulder back far enough. So I crank the die down, another half turn, resize and measure... a little better. I keep repeating this thinking I'm eventually get it the should where it needs to be, but even after 3 or more full turn on the die it's still longer by .008 out from stock ammo cases, and I've stopped gaining ground.

Looking at the process, even when I'm basically standing on the handle and jumping up and down the die just won't go down to meet the shell holder anymore. It's like it's bottomed out, and I can see daylight between the shellholder and the bottom of the die.  

I'm thinking that I have a die that is out of spec. Anyone else have any ideas?

Quote from: spitstickler on April 09, 2010, 12:12:42 AM

Following the instructions on the die set, I put my shell holder in place, raise the ram and twist the die down to where is touches the shellholder. Then lower the ram and add another 1/4 to 1/3 turn to the die and lock it in place. But the dang thing won't chamber.

I bought the hornady headspace gauge kit to measure against several flavors of stock ammo and sure enough, I'm not pushing the shoulder back far enough. So I crank the die down, another half turn, resize and measure... a little better. I keep repeating this thinking I'm eventually get it the should where it needs to be, but even after 3 or more full turn on the die it's still longer by .008 out from stock ammo cases, and I've stopped gaining ground.

When the die hits the shell holder and you turn it down another 1/4 turn, that's all you can do. Screwing the die down more will do nothing. Think about it. How could it? When you hit bottom it can go not more.

QuoteLooking at the process, even when I'm basically standing on the handle and jumping up and down the die just won't go down to meet the shell holder anymore. It's like it's bottomed out, and I can see daylight between the shellholder and the bottom of the die.  

I'm thinking that I have a die that is out of spec. Anyone else have any ideas?

Back your die out till it just touches the shell holder then screw it back down 1/4 turn. Do you still see daylight between the die and shell holder?

Was the brass fired in the rifle in question?

I have had similar issues with lee dies. I made the mistake of buying them when I first got into reloading because of the price.  Go order some RCBS dies and I bet your problem will be solved.

TK

Quote from: douglas34474 on April 09, 2010, 12:52:07 AM

Quote from: spitstickler on April 09, 2010, 12:12:42 AM

Following the instructions on the die set, I put my shell holder in place, raise the ram and twist the die down to where is touches the shellholder. Then lower the ram and add another 1/4 to 1/3 turn to the die and lock it in place. But the dang thing won't chamber.

I bought the hornady headspace gauge kit to measure against several flavors of stock ammo and sure enough, I'm not pushing the shoulder back far enough. So I crank the die down, another half turn, resize and measure... a little better. I keep repeating this thinking I'm eventually get it the should where it needs to be, but even after 3 or more full turn on the die it's still longer by .008 out from stock ammo cases, and I've stopped gaining ground.

When the die hits the shell holder and you turn it down another 1/4 turn, that's all you can do. Screwing the die down more will do nothing. Think about it. How could it? When you hit bottom it can go not more.

QuoteLooking at the process, even when I'm basically standing on the handle and jumping up and down the die just won't go down to meet the shell holder anymore. It's like it's bottomed out, and I can see daylight between the shellholder and the bottom of the die.  

I'm thinking that I have a die that is out of spec. Anyone else have any ideas?

Back your die out till it just touches the shell holder then screw it back down 1/4 turn. Do you still see daylight between the die and shell holder?

Was the brass fired in the rifle in question?

I can get it to touch if I back it out like it's supposed to be, no daylight then, but it doesn't push the shoulder back far enough.   And no, it's once fired brass, not from this rifle.

I've had good luck with Lee so far, but I guess it was just a matter of time. I'll order a set of RCBS dies with my next Midway order. So hopefully that will take care of the problem.

Save your money. LEE has a good warranty. Call them and they will make it right.

You don't need SB dies unless you have a match chamber. 7.62 and 308 have the same dimensions, the difference is in the chambers themselves, not the size of the cartridge. All a SB die set does is over work your brass.

I have partial resized for the M1 Garand for over 30 years with out issue one. I set my die 1/4 turn UP after the die touches the shell holder. This works great if you're reloading for one rifle. It does not set the shoulder back and reforms the case within 0.0001 of where it should be. After your brass is fire formed to your chamber this method work great. You get a lot longer life on your brass.

FYI, the '06 is 0.005" longer than the chamber you put it in. 

Quote from: The Kid on April 09, 2010, 01:53:52 AM
I have had similar issues with lee dies. I made the mistake of buying them when I first got into reloading because of the price.  Go order some RCBS dies and I bet your problem will be solved.

TK

I wasn't the only one that did that? .  All my equipment was Lee, now it's RCBS & Dillon.  Trying to load .308 on a Lee Turret was so hard I didn't do it for over a year.  With my Dillon 650, I'm back to to it.

Quote from: douglas34474 on April 09, 2010, 10:32:20 AM
Save your money. LEE has a good warranty. Call them and they will make it right.

You don't need SB dies unless you have a match chamber. 7.62 and 308 have the same dimensions, the difference is in the chambers themselves, not the size of the cartridge. All a SB die set does is over work your brass.

I have partial resized for the M1 Garand for over 30 years with out issue one. I set my die 1/4 turn UP after the die touches the shell holder. This works great if you're reloading for one rifle. It does not set the shoulder back and reforms the case within 0.0001 of where it should be. After your brass is fire formed to your chamber this method work great. You get a lot longer life on your brass.

FYI, the '06 is 0.005" longer than the chamber you put it in. 

True, but I got tired of waiting for new parts and not loading.

Results may vary. 

I have two or three sets of LEE dies. Never had a problem.

Did buy a mold for 170 grain flat nose for my 30-30s and it was cut off center. LEE replace it, no questions.

Did you check the case trim length??

Quote from: douglas34474 on April 09, 2010, 10:44:07 AM
Results may vary. 

I have two or three sets of LEE dies. Never had a problem.

Did buy a mold for 170 grain flat nose for my 30-30s and it was cut off center. LEE replace it, no questions.

Did you check the case trim length??

In all honesty, I didn't have a problem the first 2 years loading lots of 9mm, .45ACP at a little 30-'06.  It just started falling apart about 18 months ago.  I was new to loading and everything I read said not to start with a progressive, the Lee looked good.  No regrets, it's packed up in my garage, just in case I need it some day.

Results may vary, indeed.

If you are going to be reloading for one rifle in the caliber, using only brass fired through that rifle originally then a standard die will do fine.  If you are going to be shooting range pickup brass and/or loading for multiple rifles in the caliber then a small base die is in order.  I have all Lee gear except the dies, Lee doesn't make small base dies.  Got recommendations for RCBS and went with that.  I also hate trimming, so got the X-die and am glad I did.

So, if one rifle/same brass deal then an RCBS X-die is the ticket.

If random brass/multiple rifles then an RCBS Small Base X-die is a good idea.

In theory the small base dies don't give as long a case life, but that is probably only true with one rifle/same brass situation.  I am on the 6th loading of some 7.62x51mm and 7.62x63mm  all fired through autoloaders with no end of life indicators.

SoM

It's definitely not a match chamber and it's 7.62 x 51.  All the brass is long but I've always trimmed after I resized. I am sure that a lot of this brass has been fired through mg. Some resize with a normal amount of pressure, but a lot of them are really tight. It makes a lot of noise during the resizing process which I'm not used to hearing. I'm pushing down so hard I'm worried I'll break something on the press (from the Lee kit)

I'm going to borrow a RCBS die this weekend and see if that makes a difference. If that doesn't allow me to resize, maybe I need a press with more leverage?  (or a cheater bar...  jk)

SOM are you using the small base die, or the x-die? (or both)

Hello Group; The Tools that are sold by LEE are not worth the money. They are CRAP. You will spend more time being frustrated with the JUNK they call tools. Send the stuff back and demand a REFUND. They need to know YOU are not happy and have no intention on settling for the garbage they sell. I have two Lee tools, they work OK, they are a case trimmer in .30 carbine, and the hand priming unit that I have retired since RCBS came out with the one that does not need a shell holder for each size..
Stick with any company OTHER than LEE, I wonder why they are still around

This is my opinion, I am at the loading bench more than I am any where else, you make your own mind up, I have!!!


Pappy

I have the RCBS small base, X-die for 5.56, 7.62x54 and .30/06.  I believe I ordered them from Midway.  Prior to using them I had similar problems with sizing and reliability (I am in the range pickup/multiple rifle situation), and had a myriad of suggestions blaming both dies and presses.  Went to SB X-dies and no more problems (not had to do any more trimming yet either  ).  I use Lee O-frame and turret presses for rifles, Pro1000 for pistols.

SoM

On the small base dies, isn't that even going to make them harder to resize the first time?

SOM, I think I understand the thought behind it.. Small base sizes them down a little bit more, making them more flexible for multiple rifles. ...just thinking if it's darn near impossible with a regular sized die, trying to size it down more may be a chore.   ...or maybe the dies are different enough in quality that resizing in general is easier?

 Are you using a lee shellholder with the lee dies? Sometimes a mis-matched shellholder can cause problems. FWIW I would take a fired case from your rifle, measure it and then size that case. This will at least tell you where you stand with your rifle, ammo and equipment. You don't want the variable of someone elses fired cases influencing things.

It is my understanding that SB dies only squeeze the base a little more and dont have anything to do with the headspace.  If the case is too "fat" then a SB die may solve the problem.  If you are not bumping the shoulder back far enough, SB dies may not fix that.

I will also bring a Wilson and MO gauge this weekend.

As far as ease of sizing:  get some Imperial sizing die wax--wonderful stuff!  This will help a great deal in the first sizing of MG brass.

On my range pickups, the first time through is sometimes noticeably harder to resize, once it's done it's done.

The SB dies squeeze the case just in front of the extractor a bit more, AFAICT they don't help with setting the shoulder back.

SoM

I have had similar problems with the Lee dies.  Good dies, but for a few dollars more, one can get VERY good dies.  Try a set of RCBS dies.  Lee may try to make it right, but they may also send you a new out of spec die too.  I actually spoke to one of the Lee boys about 3-4 months ago.  He told me that my die was not out of spec I had set it up wrong.  Somewhere in Lee's literature it actually says that their dies size on the large size of "within spec".

Had the same issue when sizing for my M1.  The chamber in the M1 is generous and brass that would not chamber in my Savage 110 (same shoulder issue you are having) would chamber in the M1.  But the Lee die sized on average about 5-9 thou over what my new RCBS die sized to.  May not seem like a whole lot but it made a friggin huge difference on inserting the loaded clip into the magazine well.

Also, the lee die had a hard time sizing Remington brass consistantly.  About every other one would not chamber.  The RCBS die works with every piece of brass I throw at it.  I don't know if the problem is from internal die flex due to lesser quality steel, tolerances being larger, or just plain ol' "get what you pay for".  Either way, the RCBS has produced consistant sizing from day one.

I guess the difference in the cost between dies and good dies is the cost of QC skill.  Either that or Lee gets their money's worth out of their die cutters.

SB dies not only squeeze the case down an extra bit (something like 0.002"), but it also bumps the shoulder of the case back.  This is important for match chambers as I understand it.  My wife's match AR upper would NOT chamber FL-resized brass, even if it was once fired brass through her chamber.  In my standard AR, no problems with FL most of the time.

Spit - Sounds like you need the SB die for whatever reason.  I assume you're making sure you aren't exceeding max trim length and overall length for the caliber.  That can also cause chambering issues.

We can talk about our wonderful reloading experiences this weekend at the IBC!

OK, folks, so you all know, I do this for money, as in Type 06 FFL (ammo manufacturer).

The dies could be the problem, but likely not. Small base dies sometimes help, but, I wouldn't use them unless absolutely necessary. They aren't just for "match chambers", either. They're for returning the base of brass used in machine guns (primarily ,but some semi-autos also cause issues) to return them to the diameter to fit semi-auto rifles (bolt guns usually have enough leverage to not need it, but not always).

The press certainly could cause this. If it's not a O type press (like an RCBS Rockchucker), it could be springing. Once you get to a certain point, you're done.

Now, go back and try it again, and pay close attention to see if the shell holder hits the bottom of the die, while you're sizing a case (you may have already done this, if so, then you already have this info). If it isn't, ans screwing the die in more won't get you there, the problem is your press. Could also be the lube, as this affects the press, by a lack of lube requiring more leverage.

A tidbit of info for all of you.

You get what you pay for. You pay for what you get.

If you're scrimping on money, buy your stuff on eBay (except powder measures and scales, always buy those NEW).

RCBS is good stuff, Redding is even better. Dillon is comparable to them.

Lee makes few tools worth buying. Their decapping die is great stuff, as it usually doesn't break in a Berdan primed case. (AMHIK) The rest of their dies are generally junk. Their presses ARE junk.

Quote from: Nickle on April 09, 2010, 02:16:45 PM
OK, folks, so you all know, I do this for money, as in Type 06 FFL (ammo manufacturer).

Thank god.  I don't know how many useless contradictory forum posts on various sites I've waded through.  Most of my knowledge has been from trial and error.  Doesn't seem to be any really good "Reloading for Dummies" kinda literature out there; that or I wasn't looking hard enough.

Quote
The press certainly could cause this. If it's not a O type press (like an RCBS Rockchucker), it could be springing. Once you get to a certain point, you're done.

What do you mean by springing?  I have the cheap-o Lee C-clamp style die.  Great for pistol reloading.  From what I could tell when I was having issues with FL resizing with Lee dies, the shell holder was hitting the bottom of the die when sizing a round.

Quote
RCBS is good stuff, Redding is even better. Dillon is comparable to them.

Lee makes few tools worth buying. Their decapping die is great stuff, as it usually doesn't break in a Berdan primed case. (AMHIK) The rest of their dies are generally junk. Their presses ARE junk.

I've got the Lee press working fine with the RCBS SB dies.  Is there some downside/risk to using the SB when not fully necessary?  I guess they work the brass more, reducing the amount of reloads? 

Why do folks think just because it says M1, or Lee, or Colt every one is exactly the same?  They are not.  Similar, within some limits, but very little is the same one example to the next.  Same for the reloading tools.  There's good and bad in everything.  My Pacific (Hornady) 38/357 dies would not put a good crimp on .38 special brass so I had to "grind" a little off the bottom and then they worked great.

My M1A has a match barrel (therefore a "match" chamber) and yet I do not fully resize brass for it and it has always chambered fine.  I'll bet other match barreled/chambered M1A's won't chamber my brass (and that's okay by me 'cause it's for my M1A  )

I have Pacific, RCBS and Lee dies in 30.06, .308 and .223 and so far no issues from any of them.

I have been having some issues with a Lee shell holder (or two) for the .223 Remington (brass doesn't want to go in or out of it.)

I'm not into pretty, I'm into what works for me - so if I had a sizer die that did not fully resize (due to internal length issues) the brass I'd put the bottom of it on a grinder (after removing the decapping pin) and remove a little from the bottom of the die so the shoulder/neck resizing part of the die would be a little closer to the shell holder - if length was the issue.

I'm going to try to get to the range this weekend to try some of my .223 reloads in my newest rifle.

As for presses, I'd recommend the O-type for rifles and the C-type for handguns.  Not having that post in the front sure makes it easy to move your hands and brass in/around the shell holder.

I'm going to be disagreeable with the tide of anti-Lee sentiment here.

Blame it on Lee instead of figuring out whats happening on isn't going to help.

I have 4 sets of Lee rifle dies and 1 pistol and haven't run into such problems with them. The exception being the 6.5 carcano shell holder that doesn't correctly fit Prvi brass (replaced with an Hornady shell holder) but at least the Lee die comes with a .268 expander.

My 30-06 FLSZ is the largest Lee die I own; like any 30-06 die it can run into some resistance but sizes them on either the RCBS press or even the small Lee C press. I have FL sized over a 1000 30-06 cases with this set, all range pick-ups, about half military and half commercial.

The low cost (aluminum) "starter" C press is a terrific supplemental press (and portable for the range) so i would never throw it away, but for large rifle I agree with Old Dog - you really want a cast iron O press. (BTW: the Lee Classic Cast suites fine here - I know a SB that uses one to load 50 BMG.)

So, you can blame it all on Lee or attempt to figure out whats going on:

By "not chambering" do you mean  not fitting the die or not fitting the rifle chamber?
   
- If it's the rifle, are you sure your chambering problems are not bullet seating OAL?

If it's the die, it has to be stopping on something:

- Check your trim length before sizing. If they are too long already the neck is stopped on the top of the die, keeping the rest of the brass from entering. 

- Check how deep you have the expander/decapper. If it's set in too deep (or shallow) your blocking on the expander ball. Even if you think it's fine  try to size a round with the expander assembly removed from the die and see if that goes in all the way.

- Lube, lube, lube. its not a pistol round, and it's not .223. If the stopping contact is on the body of the brass, only lube is going to help.

- The likelyhood of an incorrectly cut die is slim (remember this is CNC controlled.) Disassemble a factory round and see if it fits. If not, call Lee, and they will make good on it.

BTW: where did the brass come from?  Could it be pick-ups from someone with trashed headspace or wildcat? (probably not wildcat, because those guys pick up EVERY piece of their brass.)

The Lee bashing seems to be a hobby for some. Someone in castboolit thread pointed out that folks that spend a lot more on gear simply want put down the less expensive alternatives.

Quote from: gunville on April 09, 2010, 07:47:51 PM

My 30-06 FLSZ is the largest Lee die I own; like any 30-06 die it can run into some resistance but sizes them on either the RCBS press or even the small Lee C press. I have FL sized over a 1000 30-06 cases with this set, all range pick-ups, about half military and half commercial.  Now that I read your post it reminds me that I often run into civilian brass that is harder to resize than military brass.

The low cost (aluminum) "starter" C press is a terrific supplemental press (and portable for the range) so i would never throw it away, but for large rifle I agree with Old Dog - you really want a cast iron O press.  I use my Lee aluminum press for setting up the primer pocket swager.  When I run into a case with a really tight pocket I pop it on/in the Lee press w/swager and fix it right up.  I also use it to set up the case mouth expander die for pistol cases and I've used it to seat bullets, too.  Having two presses on the bench sometimes makes it nice when you don't have to tear down your set up to take care of a problem piece of brass.

So, you can blame it all on Lee or attempt to figure out whats going on:

By "not chambering" do you mean  not fitting the die or not fitting the rifle chamber?
   
- If it's the rifle, are you sure your chambering problems are not bullet seating OAL?  One of us "old guys" should have already mentioned this.  Good add.

If it's the die, it has to be stopping on something:

- Check your trim length before sizing. If they are too long already the neck is stopped on the top of the die, keeping the rest of the brass from entering.  I didn't think of this one either, never saw it before.

- Check how deep you have the expander/decapper. If it's set in too deep (or shallow) your blocking on the expander ball. Even if you think it's fine  try to size a round with the expander assembly removed from the die and see if that goes in all the way.   another one I didn't think of before and I have seen this one.

- Lube, lube, lube. its not a pistol round, and it's not .223. If the stopping contact is on the body of the brass, only lube is going to help.  Yeah, I use lots of lube, lots and a tube of RCBS lube still lasts thousands of rounds.  You want to know what enough lube will do for you?  I actually have less trouble resizing most .308 or 30.06 brass than I do resizing 9mm brass with a carbide die (I thought I was going to break the press of the table a few times when I was working through my first batch of 9mm brass).

- The likelyhood of an incorrectly cut die is slim (remember this is CNC controlled.) Disassemble a factory round and see if it fits. If not, call Lee, and they will make good on it.

BTW: where did the brass come from?  Could it be pick-ups from someone with trashed headspace or wildcat? (probably not wildcat, because those guys pick up EVERY piece of their brass.)

The Lee bashing seems to be a hobby for some. Someone in castboolit thread pointed out that folks that spend a lot more on gear simply want put down the less expensive alternatives.

Like I said, some things here I'd never seen before but good to keep in mind.  Good post gunville.

The Lee bashing seems to be a hobby for some. Someone in castboolit thread pointed out that folks that spend a lot more on gear simply want put down the less expensive alternatives.

[/quote]

Hello All;  Facts are facts, its not a hobby, it is a statement. Do not take it personal. Those who do not care for the Lee brand and the lack of quality, quality control, have learned that good tooling gives accurate results time after time...These tools are a joy to use, Some of the company`s who have made High Quality precision loading tools are no longer with us, like the Star progressive. These company's have been replaced by cheap imitations, (Learn to know the Difference,  its a skill to be learned)..
My Passion is shooting, and reloading. Quality and Accuracy, There is nothing else.... We are after the same thing.

Pappy

There are quality problems with not just Lee, but RCBS, Lyman, etc. 

Maybe Redding alone shines here.

When I take apart a Lee sizing die, the thing is mirror polished, made of high quality steel, and the cases it produces are to SAMMI specs. These are CNC produced - the likelyhood of having one out of spec is slim.

Some of the features are even neat - the decapping/expander setup for one. I've only ever had to replace one decapping pin. (Wish I could say that for my RCBS dies.)  And that was replaced free by Lee.

Now I decap with the universal decapper so I don't have to worry about decapping pins in my other dies.

The Lee dies are not perfect - I'm replacing the "lock" rings with HDNY versions because I don't trust them to stay put. 

The Lee dies are not compeition dies, but they don't claim to be. They are not for ammo manufacturing, but they don't claim to be.

But for the reloader/hunter/shooter - these dies get the job done, and leave a lot of coin for components.

This thread has had me thinking and noticing things in the old reloading shed the last couple of days.  Yesterday I realized my Pacific dies have no rust on them (the shed is unheated and can be pretty damp at times based on the weather/humitidy).  That industrial chrome finish on the Pacific (Hornady) dies must be working.  My Lee dies rust (on the outside only so far).  I spray them with rem-oil after scrubbing the rust off with 3n1 oil and steel wool but they tend to rust some anyway.  They don't seem to be rusting inside, just on the outside.  I need to dig my RCBS X-dies out and take a look at them today.

The amount and type of lube can have an effect upon how much resizing you obtain with one fixed die position.  
Adequate lube yields more brass displacement than inadequate lube.  The more resistance the case wall and dies generate, the more effort is wasted in flexure of the press frame, pins, etcetera.  The phenomenon you describe is consistent with a lube problem; it shouldn't be that hard to resize the brass.  If you're hearing 'squeeking' noises, the lube is inadequate; switch to a different brand or try a bit more of the lube you're using.  
(Edit to add: Lube all the way down to the case head; experiment with different amounts and locations of lube.  Try a method and see if the results will chamber, stick with the application scheme that works.) 
Too much lube, however, will dent the shoulder.  

The neck expander may squeek when you remove the case and expand the neck; that's fairly insignificant with respect to case sizing.  

A stout press frame, adequate lube, and properly cut dies and shell holders (and a properly cut rifle chamber!)  are needed.  You can try some of those solutions without spending money.  If your rifle has no problem chambering factory ammunition, that would indicate that the chamber is likely OK, but it'd be worthwhile to check your chamber headspace when able and confirm that it's in spec.  

Lee will repair or replace your sizing die if you sent it to them.  

Quote from: spitstickler on April 09, 2010, 12:21:55 PM
It's definitely not a match chamber and it's 7.62 x 51.  All the brass is long but I've always trimmed after I resized. I am sure that a lot of this brass has been fired through mg. Some resize with a normal amount of pressure, but a lot of them are really tight. It makes a lot of noise during the resizing process which I'm not used to hearing. I'm pushing down so hard I'm worried I'll break something on the press (from the Lee kit)

I'm going to borrow a RCBS die this weekend and see if that makes a difference. If that doesn't allow me to resize, maybe I need a press with more leverage?  (or a cheater bar...  jk)

SOM are you using the small base die, or the x-die? (or both)

Just back from IBC... The rifle hasn't had any problems with any factory ammo that I've run through it, so the chamber seems okay. Aromatic has lent me a few gauges, another set of dies, and some of the imperial sizing wax. What I'm experiencing isn't a length issue with the brass keeping it from fully resizing. I've tried resizing some brass that I've already trimmed, but it's still the same.

I haven't had a chance to really get back to it yet with Patriot's day weekend coming up but taking my die apart and giving it a good look inside it looks a little on the rough side to me. If I hold it at the right light like in this photo, I can see the machining marks.

Those dies shouldn't be that rough.  Like I said before, invest the 30 dollars on some RCBS dies.

TK