Project Appleseed

Your Appleseed State Board => Florida (ScubaSteve) => Topic started by: rambo granny on May 08, 2022, 04:41:50 PM

Title: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: rambo granny on May 08, 2022, 04:41:50 PM
"Adapt and overcome". News flash. It IS possible to do an Adaptive 4 Minute AQT.
Yes, there's photographic proof (in case it takes a while to be able to do it again. 🤣)

In transforming my own gimp-ness over the past 21 months😂, perhaps hard earned knowledge will indeed help and/or encourage other mobility challenged students or instructors.

First off, none of the regular seated positions have been possible for me…. yet. What does work is the open leg position with the derrière on a chair instead of on the ground. Exactly the same steady hold factors and shifting still apply. See picture.

After being told by the orthopedic doc, "you need to forget about a low stoop", the going prone part remains a work in progress. Adapt and Overcome. Upon seeing video of my impromptu 4 min AQT, my talented physical therapist suggested some video homework to come up with best body mechanics to avoid further injury. 😁 Of course work continues on other deficits too.

I had been thinking about doing the 4 Minute AQT for quite some time, but not totally sure how to adapt. In an impulsive moment, I just did it for real with prepped mags already sitting in the range bag which meant stage 2 & 3 each got shot with a mag change. Dang! Add the super slow moving shooter time to that and it meant firing at almost hyperventilating rifleman cadence. 🤣 Thank goodness the slow getting up after it's all over isn't timed!😜

True confessions…It is less time with "ouch" to do 4 Minute AQT than a regular one.

Thanks Wendy, Sybil, and Bruce for being safety officer, video persons, and timekeepers of this experiment.

Video of Adaptive seated position w better view  https://share.icloud.com/photos/0488gMVlrEv2EbTSTYTl-4AIg (https://share.icloud.com/photos/0488gMVlrEv2EbTSTYTl-4AIg)

Video of Adaptive 4 Minute AQT & Target  https://share.icloud.com/photos/098CbfrVVVfTV_gwpiqU21mzQ (https://share.icloud.com/photos/098CbfrVVVfTV_gwpiqU21mzQ)
These are iCloud links good for 30 days
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: Minutemom on May 08, 2022, 05:48:35 PM
This is absolutely amazing Janet! I know how hard you've been working since your accident. It's truly admirable and such an inspiration! Thank you for posting this, as it's super important that we're able to help our adaptive Appleseeders! This is a great example of how to do it!
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: TheMenace on May 08, 2022, 06:04:49 PM
Congratulations on this achievement Janet. IAO! I'm certain Jean Albert is smiling down on you.  :1luvu
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: Heavyduty77 on May 08, 2022, 08:16:18 PM
I have worked with "rambo granny" for several years and watched her painstakingly assist shooters using her steady and relaxing coaching style. When her leg was badly injured in an accident it looked as though her ability to complete an AQT was at an end. She has worked diligently for almost two years trying to recover and seeing the video of her complete and qualify shooting a Rapid Fire AQT was monumental! I haven't known many people that have shown the determination and persistence that she has.

The fact that she has not only shown that she can overcome her injury and adapt sufficiently to score, she has also made it a point to show that we can learn from her experience to accommodate and assist others that are having doubts about their ability to participate in our program.

Thank you Janet for your dedication to Appleseed.
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: Tennessee Beast on May 09, 2022, 10:23:13 AM
You're an inspiration and a great example of IAO!!!  Hope to see you soon!
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: Overmountain on May 09, 2022, 04:14:20 PM
Wow!  Very well done!  What a phenomenal example of persistence! 
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: Burnett on May 09, 2022, 09:41:52 PM
Oh, that right there is inspirational!
I have a blown out disk at L4-L5 that is going to require fusing; seated or kneeling is an ordeal.
I might could do that.
THANKS! and Congrats,
Burnett
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: rambo granny on May 10, 2022, 07:52:00 AM
 Burnette
If this experiment only helped one person, it would be absolutely worth all the effort!
 Please feel free to PM me if I can be of help. There are some fine points if you'd like more info.

This offer is open to anyone else who is either personally challenged or has a special student they want to help.

FWIW….I thought at one point I would have to hang up my hat due to the continuing mobility issues,  Once again IAO applies to teaching. Focus on what one can do rather than what one  can't do. We don't have enough bailers for the mission. Together, which includes "alarm listers" and mobility challenged, we are all stronger.
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: Burnett on May 10, 2022, 09:45:01 AM
 O0
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: 300berg on May 10, 2022, 10:28:16 AM
This offer is open to anyone else who is either personally challenged or has a special student they want to help.

I am paying attention to this thread.  There is a local organization near me called Adaptive Sports North Country (https://adaptivesportspartners.org/programs/)
that I could reach out to. 

I would like to be more knowledgeable about adaptive shooting options before approaching them.  In the meantime I will learn what I can and plan to volunteer
for their existing programs.

Thanks for everything you do!
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: Captain on May 11, 2022, 01:53:04 AM
This looks great (and fun)! Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: rambo granny on May 12, 2022, 05:55:51 PM
ScubaSteve has made this post "sticky" so it stays near the top. This allows us all to share  Adaptive techniques over time.
So the experiment with the open leg chair position continues.
It's been 2 years since I shot a center fire while rehab slowly progressed. That changed yesterday when we got an invite from AS buddies who are members at a private long distance range.
While everyone here knows that 300 & 400 yds are shot prone in AS for good reasons , it is possible to make consistent hits @ 300 and 400 in the open leg chair position!
After being prone twice, the chair position was necessary.🤣
In the picture note the best ever knee pad device: more on that if there's questions

Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: ScubaSteve on May 12, 2022, 08:33:49 PM
So we will be seeing you and Bruce at the KD this year?   We have a golf cart to move the chair :)

Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: Black Knight on May 13, 2022, 12:38:47 PM
Inspirational!!
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: Monkey on June 07, 2022, 09:11:49 PM
Of course, the links in the original post expired...yesterday....ugh...
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: rambo granny on June 07, 2022, 10:51:30 PM
Monkey here's the 4 min AQT, target, &better view of open leg chair:

 https://share.icloud.com/photos/072I3wbxoSJ9SsDpylYQ67H2Q (https://share.icloud.com/photos/072I3wbxoSJ9SsDpylYQ67H2Q)
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: Monkey on June 07, 2022, 11:03:29 PM
Monkey try this:
  https://share.icloud.com/photos/075k2LlUm0jXvMlBwL4uABIYQ (https://share.icloud.com/photos/075k2LlUm0jXvMlBwL4uABIYQ)

Awesome - great video, thanks!
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: 300berg on June 08, 2022, 07:23:36 AM
Thank you for posting the video!

What was holding the three magazines in a triangle?  Something you made or purchased?  For a moment, I thought you
had a drum magazine for your 10/22. :)
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: rambo granny on June 08, 2022, 02:09:52 PM
300berg:
It's a gizmo you can purchase to link 3 1022 mags together.
One less fumble factor for me….however, it does not work out for standing as my support hand goes exactly over the mag well…. short arms required pushing in the buttstock.
Purchased years ago. Bruce looking for source now & will post
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: 9mm4545 on June 08, 2022, 02:16:32 PM
The triple magazine gadget uses standard Ruger (BX-1) 10/22 mags and is called a ALANGATOR TACTICAL TRIMAG. Brownells has them for under 20 bucks (not including the magazines!) but they shouldn't be hard to find. I prefer the devices that hold two mags as it fits into my pocket easier; both are super handy.
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: rambo granny on June 14, 2022, 11:00:22 PM
In the last posted pic of the "open leg chair" position, the McDavid compression knee sleeves were being used to pad and protect the grouchy knee. These don't slip around like traditional knee pads and are moisture wicking
Some colors are less $ than others.  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008BJ7KPU?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_PXBENREH382EQMFED1G1 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008BJ7KPU?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_PXBENREH382EQMFED1G1)

While looking up the above link, just saw same padded thing for elbows with some described as a shooter arm sleeve
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: PHenry on June 16, 2022, 03:06:19 PM
 O0
Title: ADAPTIVE 4 minute AQT
Post by: rambo granny on June 17, 2022, 11:34:08 PM
In a private message, I received questions re the chair used for the "open leg chair" position adapted for stage 2 of the AQT.  Posting answers here allows sharing with everyone on this thread.
It's been a process! Many months post trauma, returning to "recoil therapy" 🤣   :---  first involved a wheelchair with my grouchy immobilized leg in full length brace sticking straight out. The earthquake shaking was offset by resting both elbows on a lap desk (board)  placed across the arms of the wheelchair.  The idea and the lap desk came from my friend, FLawyer, who watched the initial struggle. A loop sling was also used as I was shaky! Magic!

Several months passed with intense physical therapy & using a walker. It was still safer to use the board/chair/loop sling . Moving on to a shooting chair also meant certain criteria for the chair:
*sturdy arms for getting up & down 💪
*back pack straps which made carrying my own chair possible while using a cane.👍
*large cup holder great for stashing magazines 😆

Pictures follow where you can also see the seat is slightly lower in the back….a happy accident while in West Marine using gift certificates🤣



Title: ADAPTIVE 4 minute AQT
Post by: rambo granny on June 18, 2022, 02:19:02 AM
[url] https://www.dropbox.com/s/kelrvpztt399ch0/A86EEE02-2BE8-47FB-8C14-F404C516E284.HEIC?dl=0[url]
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: rambo granny on June 18, 2022, 02:19:57 AM
 https://share.icloud.com/photos/0a6RMwJJY3cS6GdqqFnfy_lqw (https://share.icloud.com/photos/0a6RMwJJY3cS6GdqqFnfy_lqw)

These pics go with above post answering questions about the shooting chair
Two additional points about chair:
*Arm placement and chair width need to allow spreading knees similar  to open leg position on ground. Individual size and body challenges are factors both ways.  Shifting NPOA and elevation whether in a chair or on ground are key.
* safety first. Note in pic that this chair has wider base than seat making it more stable and UNlikely to topple. Although the experimental Adaptive 4 minute AQT was done from this very chair, it is an ADVANCED ADAPTIVE technique. Do not try it without a buddy safety officer by your side!
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: pennys dad on June 18, 2022, 11:01:06 PM
Excellent thread.

Question: Would the seat work better as a hard seat or the range chair in the video?
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: 300berg on June 19, 2022, 06:32:30 AM
Would a rolling chair like this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09K74P1X1 be useful, or not stable enough?
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: 9mm4545 on June 19, 2022, 01:42:17 PM
I see two problems with a chair that rolls: 1) the stability will be less than a chair with legs instead of wheels no matter how well the wheels are locked and 2) the height of the seat looks like it would be too high to get the elbows on the knees for maximum stability. The ideal chair should put the butt slightly lower than the knees. Unless the range is paved most of the wheels on rolling walkers will bog into the ground leading to less than optimal results. Perhaps a support elbow could be placed on an armrest and a reasonable amount of stability achieved. If you have access to one of these rolling walkers (with a seat), give it a try and let everyone know how it worked!
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: rambo granny on June 19, 2022, 04:22:38 PM
So great to see dialog here as this is how we all develop….finding the good stuff and eliminating anything with safety issues or that doesn't work.

300berg I admire you keeping eyes open for possibilities. Just as each regular student has little adjustments in positioning, it's more so with adaptives. Creative thinking outside the box is a good thing.

Something to consider besides what Bruce offered….
Once a person is referred to by medical personnel as a "fall risk", that term tends to stick. If an adaptive has had a fall injury,  probably best to forget wheels unless it's a wheelchair with serous locking wheels.  Ranges are naturally full of gotcha's. Grass disguises holes, rocks roll under feet. Wanna guess how I know? 😆

When I was going to the range with a walker, it was used strictly just to get to the firing line, the target line, or the shooting chair you saw in pics. The walker was standard with no wheels which is safest,  and also much sturdier if part of the body weight must be borne  by the hands rather than all on the feet.

If the adaptive person cannot cannot go from seated to standing completely without the use of sturdy standard arms on the chair to push up, the rollator would not work. It would also be difficult if regular chair arms were necessary to push up from seated to achieve standing (or transitioning from chair to prone).
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: rambo granny on June 19, 2022, 04:47:27 PM
Penny's dad…
Thanks for your comment. While we are a IAO bunch, I will share the one challenge to my chair since you asked about solid bottom….
A solid seat bottom instead of fabric would be even better. Just like ones heartbeat while all slung up snugly on a boiling hot day will result in support arm rifle jiggle coinciding with heartbeat, there's a bit of post center fire giggle in the chair seat. Timing & FOCUS rocks 😉 🤣


Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: pennys dad on June 26, 2022, 10:55:23 PM
Thank you for the reply.
I am going to experiment.
I had a person this Saturday that would have benefitted from this approach.
I noticed you moved to prone, my student this weekend could not be prone due to neck issues, i wonder how he could have done stage 2,3,4 in the seat?
I see you had many mags which allowed your 2 and 8 setup, I could have the student do the standard AQT with the class timed as normal with mags available.
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: TheMenace on June 27, 2022, 07:28:48 AM
Jean Albert, forum name rollingfire, was an inspiration to all. Jean didn't know the word "can't." She was always up for a challenge. She didn't allow her confinement to a power chair to stop her. She kayaked, played pool at a highly competitive level, and shot Rifleman with confidence.  Her ability to IAO was obvious. She developed her positions to align with the intent of our curriculum. She shot stage one seated upright in her chair using the Hasty Sling. Stage Two was shot with her elbows rested on her chair arms, using the loop sling. Stage Three and Four were shot with the loop sling, resting her elbows on a shooting bench. Many times she was one of the first to the target line to change her own target. Her cheerfulness was infectious. Jean was taken from us by the side effects of her bout with breast cancer. Jean joined the Heavenly Cadre in April 2020. She is sorely missed.
Title: Re: ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Post by: rambo granny on June 27, 2022, 09:00:50 AM
Penny's dad,
Thanks so much for your post.

Let's clarify.
The lovely inspiring post above this is re a very special adaptive. Unless you met Jean you would not know she had no legs…Beautiful creativity for her situation.
For someone who has legs, the "open leg chair" more closely mirrors our standard teaching and requires shifting and is stable.

Yes all stages can be shot from the "open leg chair position."
 More specifically, stages 2,3,4 can all be done from the "open leg chair" position using the exact same steady hold factors and shifting as it's done on the ground.  Elbows over knees if at all possible. Still use feet to shift.
It's not theory. I managed to hit 300 & 400 with a CF multiple shots. On a private range with a couple SBs and red hats in observance. In my chair I can get elbows over knees (with a knee pad over trauma knee 😂) Bending from hips is key. No hunchback.
I have not done stage 1 from "open leg chair position" as elevation could be a problem. I have, however, previously shot from a wheelchair out of necessity and made score. (Got a new IIT out of that one 😉). Later I will share tips on wheelchair.
I will dig for pics to post later. For now I'm headed to doc appointment.

Pic added of "open leg chair" position actually used for 300 & 400. Note knee protector on right leg. This tubular padded version was much more stable than regular strap on knee pads tried earlier which wiggled fiercely😵‍💫