Project Appleseed

Key words
Video
Adaptive 4 minute AQT
Mobility
Open leg chair position
IAO

"Adapt and overcome". News flash. It IS possible to do an Adaptive 4 Minute AQT.
Yes, there's photographic proof (in case it takes a while to be able to do it again. 🤣)

In transforming my own gimp-ness over the past 21 monthsðŸ˜,, perhaps hard earned knowledge will indeed help and/or encourage other mobility challenged students or instructors.

First off, none of the regular seated positions have been possible for me…. yet. What does work is the open leg position with the derrière on a chair instead of on the ground. Exactly the same steady hold factors and shifting still apply. See picture.

After being told by the orthopedic doc, "you need to forget about a low stoop", the going prone part remains a work in progress. Adapt and Overcome. Upon seeing video of my impromptu 4 min AQT, my talented physical therapist suggested some video homework to come up with best body mechanics to avoid further injury. 😁 Of course work continues on other deficits too.

I had been thinking about doing the 4 Minute AQT for quite some time, but not totally sure how to adapt. In an impulsive moment, I just did it for real with prepped mags already sitting in the range bag which meant stage 2 & 3 each got shot with a mag change. Dang! Add the super slow moving shooter time to that and it meant firing at almost hyperventilating rifleman cadence. 🤣 Thank goodness the slow getting up after it's all over isn't timed!😜

True confessions…It is less time with "ouch" to do 4 Minute AQT than a regular one.

Thanks Wendy, Sybil, and Bruce for being safety officer, video persons, and timekeepers of this experiment.

Video of Adaptive 4 Minute AQT
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ez78ea8z12wdrc5/IMG_9340.MOV?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ez78ea8z12wdrc5/IMG_9340.MOV?dl=0)

Target
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9kybbczpsjr3tep/IMG_9368.jpg?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/9kybbczpsjr3tep/IMG_9368.jpg?dl=0)

Video of Adaptive seated position w better view
https://www.dropbox.com/s/63f58ctoc5cpmhq/IMG_9338.mov?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/63f58ctoc5cpmhq/IMG_9338.mov?dl=0)

Links replaced 7/18/22

This is absolutely amazing Janet! I know how hard you've been working since your accident. It's truly admirable and such an inspiration! Thank you for posting this, as it's super important that we're able to help our adaptive Appleseeders! This is a great example of how to do it!

Congratulations on this achievement Janet. IAO! I'm certain Jean Albert is smiling down on you.  :1luvu

I have worked with "rambo granny" for several years and watched her painstakingly assist shooters using her steady and relaxing coaching style. When her leg was badly injured in an accident it looked as though her ability to complete an AQT was at an end. She has worked diligently for almost two years trying to recover and seeing the video of her complete and qualify shooting a Rapid Fire AQT was monumental! I haven't known many people that have shown the determination and persistence that she has.

The fact that she has not only shown that she can overcome her injury and adapt sufficiently to score, she has also made it a point to show that we can learn from her experience to accommodate and assist others that are having doubts about their ability to participate in our program.

Thank you Janet for your dedication to Appleseed.

You're an inspiration and a great example of IAO!!!  Hope to see you soon!

Wow!  Very well done!  What a phenomenal example of persistence! 

Oh, that right there is inspirational!
I have a blown out disk at L4-L5 that is going to require fusing; seated or kneeling is an ordeal.
I might could do that.
THANKS! and Congrats,
Burnett

 
Key words
Adaptive instructing
IAO

Burnette
If this experiment only helped one person, it would be absolutely worth all the effort!
Please feel free to PM me if I can be of help. There are some fine points if you'd like more info.

This offer is open to anyone else who is either personally challenged or has a special student they want to help.

FWIW….I thought at one point I would have to hang up my hat due to the continuing mobility issues,  Once again IAO applies to teaching. Focus on what one can do rather than what one  can't do. We don't have enough bailers for the mission. Together, which includes "alarm listers" and mobility challenged, we are all stronger.

 O0

Key words
Adaptive Shooting Organizations

Quote from: rambo granny on May 10, 2022, 07:52:00 AM
This offer is open to anyone else who is either personally challenged or has a special student they want to help.

I am paying attention to this thread.  There is a local organization near me called Adaptive Sports North Country (https://adaptivesportspartners.org/programs/)
that I could reach out to. 

I would like to be more knowledgeable about adaptive shooting options before approaching them.  In the meantime I will learn what I can and plan to volunteer
for their existing programs.

Thanks for everything you do!

This looks great (and fun)! Thanks for sharing.

Key words
Center fire rifle
Open leg chair position
IAO

ScubaSteve has made this post "sticky" so it stays near the top. This allows us all to share  Adaptive techniques over time.
So the experiment with the open leg chair position continues.
It's been 2 years since I shot a center fire while rehab slowly progressed. That changed yesterday when we got an invite from AS buddies who are members at a private long distance range.
While everyone here knows that 300 & 400 yds are shot prone in AS for good reasons , it is possible to make consistent hits @ 300 and 400 in the open leg chair position!
After being prone twice, the chair position was necessary.🤣
In the picture note the best ever knee pad device: more on that if there's questions

So we will be seeing you and Bruce at the KD this year?   We have a golf cart to move the chair :)

Inspirational!!

Of course, the links in the original post expired...yesterday....ugh...

Key words
Video
Adaptive 4 minute AQT
Open leg chair position
IAO

Monkey here's the 4 min AQT, target, &better view of open leg chair:

Video of Adaptive 4 Minute AQT
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ez78ea8z12wdrc5/IMG_9340.MOV?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ez78ea8z12wdrc5/IMG_9340.MOV?dl=0)

Target
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9kybbczpsjr3tep/IMG_9368.jpg?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/9kybbczpsjr3tep/IMG_9368.jpg?dl=0)

Video of Adaptive seated position w better view
https://www.dropbox.com/s/63f58ctoc5cpmhq/IMG_9338.mov?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/63f58ctoc5cpmhq/IMG_9338.mov?dl=0)

Links replaced 7/18/22

Quote from: rambo granny on June 07, 2022, 10:51:30 PM
Monkey try this:
 https://share.icloud.com/photos/075k2LlUm0jXvMlBwL4uABIYQ (https://share.icloud.com/photos/075k2LlUm0jXvMlBwL4uABIYQ)

Awesome - great video, thanks!

Key words
Magazines

Thank you for posting the video!

What was holding the three magazines in a triangle?  Something you made or purchased?  For a moment, I thought you
had a drum magazine for your 10/22. :)

Key words
Magazines

300berg:
It's a gizmo you can purchase to link 3 1022 mags together.
One less fumble factor for me….however, it does not work out for standing as my support hand goes exactly over the mag well…. short arms required pushing in the buttstock.
Purchased years ago. Bruce looking for source now & will post

Key words
Magazines

The triple magazine gadget uses standard Ruger (BX-1) 10/22 mags and is called a ALANGATOR TACTICAL TRIMAG. Brownells has them for under 20 bucks (not including the magazines!) but they shouldn't be hard to find. I prefer the devices that hold two mags as it fits into my pocket easier; both are super handy.

Key words
Knee pad or sleeve

In the last posted pic of the "open leg chair" position, the McDavid compression knee sleeves were being used to pad and protect the grouchy knee. These don't slip around like traditional knee pads and are moisture wicking
Some colors are less $ than others.  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008BJ7KPU?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_PXBENREH382EQMFED1G1 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008BJ7KPU?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_PXBENREH382EQMFED1G1)

While looking up the above link, just saw same padded thing for elbows with some described as a shooter arm sleeve

 O0

Key words
Seated position
Open leg chair position
Chair

In a private message, I received questions re the chair used for the "open leg chair" position adapted for stage 2 of the AQT.  Posting answers here allows sharing with everyone on this thread.
It's been a process! Many months post trauma, returning to "recoil therapy" 🤣   :---  first involved a wheelchair with my grouchy immobilized leg in full length brace sticking straight out. The earthquake shaking was offset by resting both elbows on a lap desk (board)  placed across the arms of the wheelchair.  The idea and the lap desk came from my friend, FLawyer, who watched the initial struggle. A loop sling was also used as I was shaky! Magic!

Several months passed with intense physical therapy & using a walker. It was still safer to use the board/chair/loop sling . Moving on to a shooting chair also meant certain criteria for the chair:
*sturdy arms for getting up & down ðŸ'ª
*back pack straps which made carrying my own chair possible while using a cane.ðŸ'
*large cup holder great for stashing magazines 😆

Pictures follow where you can also see the seat is slightly lower in the back….a happy accident while in West Marine using gift certificates🤣

Key words
Wheel Chair

Time moves like a snail while progressing from wheel chair & a walker to Adaptive rapid AQT WITH TRANSITIONS.
This was a horrible position, the leg sticking out was way worse than a lose sling. One of those times it took forever to get anywhere close to a position so it was a COF that went like,  "dang it, just shoot". Did help the frustration🤣

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j7bk3qou9adtbok/IMG_1035.jpg?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/j7bk3qou9adtbok/IMG_1035.jpg?dl=0)

Key words
Chair
NPOA
Shifting
Elevation
AQT

pics below help answer questions about the shooting chair
Two additional points about chair:
*Arm placement and chair width need to allow spreading knees similar  to open leg position on ground. Individual size and body challenges are factors both ways.  Shifting NPOA and elevation whether in a chair or on ground are key.
* safety first. Note in pic that this chair has wider base than seat making it more stable and UNlikely to topple. Although the experimental Adaptive 4 minute AQT was done from this very chair, it is an ADVANCED ADAPTIVE technique. Do not try it without a buddy safety officer by your side!

Key words
Question

Excellent thread.

Question: Would the seat work better as a hard seat or the range chair in the video?

Key words
Question

Would a rolling chair like this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09K74P1X1 be useful, or not stable enough?

Key words
Safety
Chair

I see two problems with a chair that rolls: 1) the stability will be less than a chair with legs instead of wheels no matter how well the wheels are locked and 2) the height of the seat looks like it would be too high to get the elbows on the knees for maximum stability. The ideal chair should put the butt slightly lower than the knees. Unless the range is paved most of the wheels on rolling walkers will bog into the ground leading to less than optimal results. Perhaps a support elbow could be placed on an armrest and a reasonable amount of stability achieved. If you have access to one of these rolling walkers (with a seat), give it a try and let everyone know how it worked!

Key words
Wheelchair
Walker
Fall risk

So great to see dialog here as this is how we all develop….finding the good stuff and eliminating anything with safety issues or that doesn't work.

300berg I admire you keeping eyes open for possibilities. Just as each regular student has little adjustments in positioning, it's more so with adaptives. Creative thinking outside the box is a good thing.

Something to consider besides what Bruce offered….
Once a person is referred to by medical personnel as a "fall risk", that term tends to stick. If an adaptive has had a fall injury,  probably best to forget wheels unless it's a wheelchair with serous locking wheels.  Ranges are naturally full of gotcha's. Grass disguises holes, rocks roll under feet. Wanna guess how I know? 😆

When I was going to the range with a walker, it was used strictly just to get to the firing line, the target line, or the shooting chair you saw in pics. The walker was standard with no wheels which is safest,  and also much sturdier if part of the body weight must be borne  by the hands rather than all on the feet.

If the adaptive person cannot cannot go from seated to standing completely without the use of sturdy standard arms on the chair to push up, the rollator would not work. It would also be difficult if regular chair arms were necessary to push up from seated to achieve standing (or transitioning from chair to prone).

Key words
Seated position
Open leg chair position
IAO

Penny's dad…
Thanks for your comment. While we are a IAO bunch, I will share the one challenge to my chair since you asked about solid bottom….
A solid seat bottom instead of fabric would be even better. Just like ones heartbeat while all slung up snugly on a boiling hot day will result in support arm rifle jiggle coinciding with heartbeat, there's a bit of post center fire giggle in the chair seat. Timing & FOCUS rocks 😉 🤣

Key words
Questions

Thank you for the reply.
I am going to experiment.
I had a person this Saturday that would have benefitted from this approach.
I noticed you moved to prone, my student this weekend could not be prone due to neck issues, i wonder how he could have done stage 2,3,4 in the seat?
I see you had many mags which allowed your 2 and 8 setup, I could have the student do the standard AQT with the class timed as normal with mags available.

Key words
AQT
IAO
Power Chair
Amputee

Jean Albert, forum name rollingfire, was an inspiration to all. Jean didn't know the word "can't." She was always up for a challenge. She didn't allow her confinement to a power chair to stop her. She kayaked, played pool at a highly competitive level, and shot Rifleman with confidence.  Her ability to IAO was obvious. She developed her positions to align with the intent of our curriculum. She shot stage one seated upright in her chair using the Hasty Sling. Stage Two was shot with her elbows rested on her chair arms, using the loop sling. Stage Three and Four were shot with the loop sling, resting her elbows on a shooting bench. Many times she was one of the first to the target line to change her own target. Her cheerfulness was infectious. Jean was taken from us by the side effects of her bout with breast cancer. Jean joined the Heavenly Cadre in April 2020. She is sorely missed.


Answering question re indexing : Jean indexed the table about 15-20 degrees counter-clockwise to allow her chair to snug up to the table. The tables are heavy so we put it in place for her

Key words
AQT
Open leg chair position
Knee Pads

Penny's dad,
Thanks so much for your post.

Let's clarify.
The lovely inspiring post above this is re a very special adaptive. Unless you met Jean you would not know she had no legs…Beautiful creativity for her situation.
For someone who has legs, the "open leg chair" more closely mirrors our standard teaching and requires shifting and is stable.

Yes all stages can be shot from the "open leg chair position."
More specifically, stages 2,3,4 can all be done from the "open leg chair" position using the exact same steady hold factors and shifting as it's done on the ground.  Elbows over knees if at all possible. Still use feet to shift.
It's not theory. I managed to hit 300 & 400 with a CF multiple shots. On a private range with a couple SBs and red hats in observance. In my chair I can get elbows over knees (with a knee pad over trauma knee ðŸ˜,) Bending from hips is key. No hunchback.
I have not done stage 1 from "open leg chair position" as elevation could be a problem. I have, however, previously shot from a wheelchair out of necessity and made score. (Got a new IIT out of that one 😉). Later I will share tips on wheelchair.
I will dig for pics to post later. For now I'm headed to doc appointment.

Pic added of "open leg chair" position actually used for 300 & 400. Note knee protector on right leg. This tubular padded version was much more stable than regular strap on knee pads tried earlier which wiggled fiercely😵‍ðŸ'«

Key words
Wheel chair
IAO
Range Safety

While we are talking about seated adaptations, I'll roll back the clock to 2020 when shooting from a Wheelchair was my only option. Lots of IAO possibilities just getting to and from the firing line. Instructor on parking lot duty should look out for safety hazards (rolling rocks, holes etc) if students arrive in wheelchair or with walker. If needed grab any instructor not tasked with something else to assist getting to firing line safely. Perhaps the adaptive has wheelchair or walker due to a spectacular fall!

First picture using only wheelchair with locked wheels and standard angle to target:
support side elbow has flat part elbow on chair arm, but the chair is too wide to provide a similar base for trigger side. That combined with the still immobilized, elevated leg which generated more shake even firing a little 22! Ouch too! Rifleman focus!

Second picture amazingly more stable using a lap desk gifted by Flawyer. A chance to IAO a substitute for lap desk. Mags were placed in drawstring bag attached to chair arm.

Sling used in both instances.

Key words
Question

Those photos are great (you are pretty amazing)!  Is it ok if I show them to my Adaptive Sports program in town?

300berg,
Thanks for asking.
Sharing the wheelchair pics is great as helping other adaptives is the mission of this thread. Getting them to an AS as a result would really rock!
Let us know what happens

Key words
Knee pads
IAO

Knee pads and pics using them are on previous posts in this thread. Here's a pic of the more stable wearable option for knees. The sizing runs small.
There are similar styles for arms to deal with raw elbows from prone. I haven't used the arm styles but would appreciate feedback from those who have?  In boiling hot weather, shooting jackets are punishing and allow one to carry pounds more sweat ðŸ˜,.

Key words
Wheelchair

Damnnit Janet --- sorry couldn't resist.  I love your tenasity.  So I would think that there might be times when the chair itself might come in handy -- for instance -- if you are unable to get your elbows on the target side of your knees/shins -- than maybe you could get them on the target side of the wheelchair.  Just a thought while looking at your pictures.  I have had many adaptive shooters and have felt very helpless at times -- this is inspiring and I hope you don't mind a phone call/text from me when these occasions arise.

True Riflemen/Riflewomen IAO, IAO, IAO

Keywords
Stroke
Aids to Shooting

Hello from PA!

Have been requested to drop a few clues and hints how I approach an AQT.
At first glance at the picture -  nothing is out of place... until someone looks closer at the support hand.

(https://i3.lensdump.com/i/tMkLKq.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/tMkLKq)

(https://i2.lensdump.com/i/tMkvtD.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/tMkvtD)

(https://i.lensdump.com/i/tMkojM.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/tMkojM)

The trigger is actuated by a small paddle lever - under the thumb of my left hand.

More to come under another thread.

As I was drafting this post, two awesome posts from Just Kim and BBQ_bandit came in. PLEASE read those before this post as both of those are right on the mark for this thread mission

Key words:
AQT
Adaptive AQT
ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT
Chronic pain
Seated position
Open leg chair position
IAO

A NAME CHANGE and a CONFESSION

When the first post, "ADAPTIVE 4 Minute AQT" went up, the intent was to encourage other adaptives and put some tools in the adaptive toolbox for others to benefit.

During the past two years following the complete severing/shredding of my patellar tendon, a particularly nasty injury described by the emergency surgeon as "life altering" with no guarantee of walking again, I've beat the usual dismal prognosis for that rare injury. Only a few deficits remain along with altered anatomy and some grouchy bits. 😆 During this long rehab, my physical therapist actually said "you're a miracle"!  I laughed…big. He stopped quite abruptly saying "I'm not kidding." 😯. I've been blessed to have had a highly skilled therapist over the long haul, a will to work hard daily, and a rifleman's determination. Much learned.

A dream had taken permanent residence in my brain, but quite honestly, I didn't plan to do the 4 minute AQT that day. It just happened with the thought that the big ouch would last a shorter amount of time with the 4 minute AQT and involve less times to get up and down like the standard AQT. 😉 I knew repeat performances in same day weren't happening…yet.

Not all states do rapid AQTs. In our state they are used mostly to stop the shot fussing for students shooting in the upper 190s and only when the student does safe transitions. It's a barrier breaker quite often. Both challenging and fun! It's also particularly rewarding for a physically challenged instructor making a comeback after injury or surgery.

Just as the regular 4 minute AQT is not for everyone, the Adaptive version is not for every adaptive. In my mind, the shorter time of "ouch" with less up and downs is good reason. Its another tool in the toolbox to use if the SB and instructors working the line have observed that the adaptive shooter is safe and shooting well enough ( at least high 190s) that he or she isn't just turning money into noise.  The physical endurance of the adaptive is a special consideration. It also takes up 2 spots on the line if a chair plus a mat for prone is used. Using the "open leg chair position" for stage 2, 3, 4 only uses 1 spot on the line.

While the rapid AQT has limited use, the "open leg chair position" is widely useful and proven possible out to 300 and 400. Try it! You may find you like it! Sure makes trying to help someone else with the tool more effective when you've done it yourself. 😉

A bit more confession…
After seeing the video of the 4 min AQT, my awesome physical therapist cheered the feat but suggested I get smoother before adding the rapid time pressure when doing a transition to prone. Injury avoidance. Homework began on that but is currently halted.  The golfers elbow I got when tipping my pedal assist trike to reverse direction in tight spots needs healing time. (More on the ultimate rehab trike  and video of smoother transition options later).

The overall goal of this adaptive thread is to develop alternative techniques for the adaptive toolbox. This thread is for asking questions, sharing ideas that work, and helping to IAO individual physical challenges. The meeting place here on the forum is currently a "construction zone". As it gathers information, structure can be added to make this a user friendly reference as time goes on.. So the name of this thread is now "Adaptive AQT Techniques" to encompass the larger mission.
Kim, you are so right as I learned first hand that folks are hesitant with adaptives either due to fear of offending or lack of knowing how to help. The neat thing about this thread is having some adaptive instructors with their varied challenges share their first hand knowledge gained in the "school of hard knocks" with those who have blessedly skipped the hard knock school but want to learn how to help.
Bob who just posted above has his own miracle story and offers to help as well. While we're at it, let's support Bob who is going for his red hat as an adaptive instructor. Huzzah indeed!

Key words
Aids to shooting


Thank you RG!

That gadget is the result of a two year trial and error learning curve arriving to this point.

However... when I first crossed the 210 mark - was under a different combination. There was an entrepreneur who developed a lightweight and collapsible shooting sticks that were mounted off your waist. Unfortunately he passed recently after I purchased a set that allowed me to shoot left handed... and that device is no longer available online. 

However his youtube videos still are up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5dEspEKbvc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNLzYIA3l4k

If anyone who is very familiar with a 10/22 can possibly recognize the design flaw using this set with a traditional standard stock with a strong elastic strap wrapped around the barrel and stock...  caused the POI to drop below the POA due to the external pressure to the free-floated barrel into the stock.  Was quite frustrating until I recognized the 10/22's sole anchor point - hence the current stock in the picture above.  The "Barracuda style" ambi stock freed up weight and allowed a separate mounting surface below the barrel.

The next concept was the direction without the shooting sticks - wanting a physical gadget on the rifle itself for a "grab it and go" combination. Online research led me to a company who already scratched my "itch"; the Be Adaptive Equipment company. https://beadaptive.com/about-us/

Their devices were designed for chair-based shooters and fixed rigs... that could be easily modified with the proper nudging and modifications to the current design off the shelf.  The BT100 model was a "mechanical bite trigger" that we relocated and repurposed as a trigger throw lever located under the thumb on the support hand.

So now... I can shoot left-handed... in a right-handed world.  ^:)^

Key words
Adaptive shooting organizations

BBQ_Bandit, amazing device and IAO!

If it is ok with you, too, I may print out one of those photos and bring to my Adaptive Sports program (https://adaptivesportspartners.org/).

So far I'll be reaching out to ask for a cup of coffee and start a conversation with these cool pictures.  If I get a bit more time, I may spitball up a one-page info sheet and post it here for your (all) ideas, but I probably won't have anything
to to tell/show for a couple weeks.

Moving slowly here, but the ball is moving.

Key words
AQT
Aids to Shooting
Positions
Loss of limb or function
Stroke

Absolutely - help yourself! Any measure to promote, expand the cause, and inspire the next shooter!

If anyone is curious on the "how" and "why" and "purpose"; the original backstory to the adapted techniques developed through the school of hard knocks...  refer to the links below.

[Disclaimer: The purpose is to illuminate new options and possibilities that can overcome ignorance.]

Intro:
https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=58931.msg381437#msg381437

Redefining a weakness: Rifle
https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=59107.msg382366#msg382366

Pistol:
https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=60693.msg389922#msg389922

The next set of pictures detail how each shooting position can be possible with the limited use of one arm

A few details:
1. The Hasty sling is used in all positions - however does involve some muscle effort and fatigue may be affected.
2. Allow the primary point of balance coincide with the grip of the stock - or will end up fighting with weight.
3. Every major component for the rifle: lightweight.
4. Once in position - transitions and mag changes may not be practical or feasable.

In the pictures; the left hand is the unaffected and dominant side - and the right hand is used as a stock support - wedged between the sling and the underneath the stock that can be raised or lowered as needed. In the present configuration: the gadget allows the shooter to be in a right-handed orientation and shoot through all four stages that was previously not possible without it.

Standing
(https://i3.lensdump.com/i/tMaq1x.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/tMaq1x)


Seated
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/tMaBpH.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/tMaBpH)


Prone
(https://i1.lensdump.com/i/tMamF1.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/tMamF1)

(https://i1.lensdump.com/i/tMkDMa.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/tMkDMa)
Your mileage may vary.....

Key words:
Seated position
IAO
Loss of limb or function
Question


BBQ_Bandit
Thanks so very much for posting these pictures and sharing your adaptions. You are indeed inspiring, sir!
I see good stuff to learn re how the IAO adaptions work for your particular challenges.

IMHO, there are NO wrongs in adaptive positioning as long as it's not leading to injury. While we teach specific steady hold factors, those may have to be tweaked to go around the adaptive challenges.

RE: your seated position
It appears that pulling your left support (stronger) leg into body first works better for your elevation. That knee looks quite flexible.
Your right leg  appears to be naturally lying flatter on the ground & may actually add more stability to your personal position. IE, the more of your body connected to the ground in any of the sitting positions, the more stability there is.
I'm also guessing that the standard "buttstock firmly in the shoulder pocket" is not useful to you but placing your right (weaker) hand under the rear rifle stock not only helps balance as you stated but also could fine tune elevation?  Without seeing you walk onto the line and get into prone for prep period, these are guesses.

Actually seeing how specific adaptive challenges are addressed adds more tools to the toolbox for helping other adaptive students with similar challenges. One of the missions of this thread is to learn how to assist other adaptive students or instructors. Your pics are instructive.

Today marks exactly 2 years since the "life altering" accident the surgeon described. I'm overall blessed but you've inspired me to keep on trucking, with residual deficits not being a show stopper. Just slower. ðŸ¤"😆 Thanks much!

Key words
IAO
Safety
Loss of limb or function

Thank you for the kind words... am happy to explain.

It ultimately boils down to one's remaining comfort factor... and the willingness to try a different possibility when coping with a loss of limb or function. In my exact situation; there are two personal details not many know... the affected/weaker right side has a reduction of sensitivity due to brain damage of the motor control nerve center caused by the stroke. As a side effect; I rely on my comfort factors to the left side of my body.

It goes back before holding the rifle... once upon a time when I was re-learning to walk... and favoring the left leg for the bulk of the body weight and balance.  How does most people transition without a rifle?  A dummy rifle standing by may be useful.

I stand on my dominant (left) leg for balance, pick up and raise the right leg, crossing over in front of the dominant leg and drop downward into a seated position... this method will put my dominant leg (thigh) pointing at the target folded inside the right leg. However - I am not comfortable repeating that sequence with a rifle in hand... prefer my left hand "ready" at the moment if I bumble... therefore my rifle remains on the ground until seated.

Without a rifle - I bent down and locate where to place my elbows near the knees in the most comfortable position trying not to add effort/muscle (NPOA).  The Hasty sling once in place - may reveal a slight cant to the rifle. This simple re-adjustment comes from using the wedged right hand as a counter pressure point and use slight pressure from the right shoulder or elbow to raise the back end of the rifle stock then re-anchor the right side elbow.

FWIW: I still reaquire NPOA between targets based off the "butt cheek pivot"


Keep on getting stronger!

Key words
Safety
Strength
Endurance
Mobility
Balance

BBQ_bandit
Thanks. That's very resourceful indeed. When given lemons, make lemonade, eh?
Seeing your pictures, you are no stranger to some "dry practice".  I would imagine a good portion of your technique was worked out at home on your own time frame rather than all on a regular event line which moves ahead faster than folks with mobility/strength/balance issues are sometimes able to do.

Endurance is also a factor for many adaptives in just everyday life and possibly more if an injury has occurred. The getting up and down (if able) likely requires more effort than a person with normal mobility.

Key words
IAO
Dry fire practice
Safety

Absolutely Rambo Granny!

There is a vast number of variables that are definitely better suited in a "dry fire practice" conditions getting ideas worked, tweaked, ironed out, refined, and getting successful repetitions before heading to a range. Before I found Appleseed - my exposure level was working a lever-action rifle chambered in 38spl and a double-barreled shotgun (Cowboy action matches) aimed at short distance steel plates without a sling. When Appleseed came to the surface... the courses of fire, the shooting positions, the history...  evaluating myself... questioning my own capabilities before signing up to the first match. ...  intimidated me temporarily.

Had to digest it...
One bite at a time...
One step at a time...
One stage at a time...

Anyone who had surgury, or wore a cast may know and relate on how to complete a common task...  using an alternate direction or technique.

There is another shooter from another venue who competes in ELR (Extreme Long Range) matches who lost both his arms as a youth. His story can be found here: https://www.fieldandstream.com/gear/elr-shooter-no-arms/

3,000 yards anyone?

The concluding paragragh within that article clearly explains a point of view that cannot be denied.

Quote"I survived my accident. It made me who I am, and I like who I am. I believe I was put here for a purposeâ€"to do what people say can't be done so that others realize that they are their own limitations. The only limitation you have is your mind. Overcome the mind, and your body almost always adapts."

Aaron Miesse

The mind must be on a high degree of focus - so much more for an adaptive person where nothing is accomplished easily. The countless decades of physio-therapy will leave anyone in a puddle of sweat. For an Adaptive - there will be an unavoidable amount of muscle and energy to accomplish the same shot.

Key Words
Inspirational

I would like to add, Bob is not only a fantastic shooter, his energy and diligence is infectious. I have to admit I have watched his progress with great interest, and hopefully, I will get to promote him to red hat status very soon! Iy seems when he is on the line, instructing, mentoring, cajoling,  my own sore knee and achy back seem to get less important. Bob is a valuable asset to the quarryville cadre, and an inspiration to all of us to step up our game!

Key Words
Inspirational

Here's that quote from the article BBQ_Bandit mentioned. It bears posting here because many people won't bother to look up the interview. It's a great read.

"I survived my accident. It made me who I am, and I like who I am. I believe I was put here for a purposeâ€"to do what people say can't be done so that others realize that they are their own limitations. The only limitation you have is your mind. Overcome the mind, and your body almost always adapts." -- Aaron Miesse

Key words
Questions

A goal of this growing adaptive thread is to make information searchable.
ðŸ'¡ Key words and reference to previous post reply by number seems a good start IMHO.

While every adaptive person is unique, a tool box filled with real life examples of IAO's gives the instructor better understanding of the challenges and some ideas of where to start, but….tweak those if needed by a particular adaptive. So…I'm going to make this post an example and humbly ask for feedback on that idea ðŸ'¡ for organizing & searching.

Here goes:

This is incomplete list of work in progress
Key words
*Standing position
*Sensory deficit
*chronic pain
*focus
*strength & endurance
*IAO tips
*dry practice

While  speaking with a guy today regarding a group he'd like to get to AS, he mentioned having adaptive folks among them. Thinking about that plus the recent posting by Bbq_bandit on this thread [Reply #44] a past experience popped into my head for a teaching moment.

Several months into physical therapy, the sports medicine therapist had directed me to stand with hands on a table for stability and lift the injured leg to the rear. What a shock! It was as if the leg was "deaf" to brain signals. Further, I simply didn't know where that leg was within the space around it unless I actually looked to see. How could I not know that months ago? Likely a phenomenon called chronic pain which seems to overshadow much.  This is but one type of sensory deficit which could be further described as neuropathy due to trauma affecting nerve transmissions. In [Reply #44] Bbq_bandit also references some sensory deficit particulars due to a stroke.

So how to improvise, from the uncooperative leg challenge to standing? Fortunately the therapist was not a gun wussie, 😉was sports oriented, and had inquired about activities I desired to continue. While many different exercises were explored for my particular case, I truly believe one of the techniques can be quite helpful to many adaptives challenged by any of these factors: balance, strength, sensory deficits. Another consideration is that aging folks also have challenges with balance and strength as part of that aging. Indeed the technique I'll  describe should be part of an adaptives dry practice IMHO….provided they are able to stand.

My first try post accident at the standing position  included a safety belt with the therapist within reach. After my balance began to improve, that was not necessary. Since bringing a rifle into the therapy facility was not possible, a cane was held in the same manner as a rifle in standing position. 😁 I faced a mirror as instructed while observing my stance and stability. This allowed visual feedback to assist with sensory deficit.  Once that was achieved, in my minds eye I was intently focusing on a real front sight. It works!

We often tell students that becoming rifleman spills over in your life in unexpected good ways. Focus, improvise, adapt, overcome, grit determination. I was fortunate to learn those prior to the accident.

Don't miss [Reply # 46] where Bbq_bandit sums up an adaptive dry practice and what an adaptive has to do above and beyond a regular student. He is so right!!!!
It also brings up a point every instructor helping an adaptive student should internalize…
Adaptives require more work and concentration to do what a normal student does. They have to be tough to just get through day to day life. They also may be slower on the uptake of new things, but just encourage and celebrate their progress at their pace
Dry practice is still a big deal….adaptive or not!

A searchable thread experiment

How to search with faster results? Let's say you just found out there would be adaptives at the event you're headed to. Need answers……

A list of key words applying to each of my own posts presenting a challenge plus it's IAO was added to the top of those posts. Keeping it as simple as possible, here's the observations:

*Just adding the applicable key words in bold at the top of each post makes the topics visually stand out when just scrolling up or down this thread….. another way to search.

*Using the search box in top right upper corner:
On the forum Home Page, the search box searches the whole entire Appleseed website. Can get very old posts!
On the Adaptive thread here, the search box searches this thread.

Re Key words:
Search a single word
OR
Search 2 or 3 words written together. A string of 2 or 3 words works IF there are NO words such as: "and & or" between the search words. Avoid special characters.

So what else is needed to grow this thread as a searchable tool for learning to work with adaptives?
YOUR posts about:

*Your questions regarding how to approach a particular adaptive challenge for yourself or others
*Your own adaptive experiences
*Something you tried with a student plus comment about whether it worked or not
*Your questions or comments about working the line as an adaptive instructor
*Your comment after trying out the search suggestions
Together we can all grow and help others.

Key words
Seven stepping

These are really great posts, and I am excited to see all this information being gathered in one place.

On my end, I sent an email to someone at our Adaptive Sports program (sent 2 days ago).  I
used 3 of the "action" shots from you and BBQ_Bandit.

I'll post an update when I hear more, but I'm angling for "Let's get a cup of coffee and talk." and
build on that.

Great 7 stepping! Bet we all learn from this.

Key words
Purpose/goal of Adaptive board

Whether you saw the Maximum Ordinate post announcing the Adaptive AQT thread originally from the Florida State Board moving here…or if you just stumbled here yourself, WELCOME EVERYONE. 🤗

The most important truth about this thread is that it is owned by every Appleseeder.  No matter who the moderator is, this thread needs YOUR input and usage if it is to be a successful Resource Tool benefitting all instructors and students whether they are personally adaptive or not.

Please answer these questions for yourself.
Am I really comfortable working with adaptives?
Am I afraid I will offend them?
Am I truly comfortable gathering enough information to respectfully help them IAO their particular challenge?
Do I have the skills to offer alternatives in adapting a position without undue pain or risk of further injury?
Am I looking at a student who may not be permanently adaptive and would be further served by techniques a bit closer to our regular teachings rather than simply parking them on a rest all day?
Would I like to communicate with an adaptive instructor who doesn't mind questions?
If you yourself are adaptive and have questions re instructing as an adaptive, we are at your service.

This thread can be built as a lasting resource, but it needs YOU to:
Let us know if a post is  helpful
Tell us if a post needs clarifying
Ask your own questions about anything adaptive
Share what worked or didn't with a student

If you haven't read this thread starting with an ADAPTIVE 4 minute AQT, please start here to see what we've been up to and tell us what you think.

https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=62914.0 (https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=62914.0)

This organic thread will remain here as it is so feel free to post anything, anytime. An organized way of searching the info will happen as we go forward.

Together we are all stronger and can build an adaptive resource to help many adaptive students and instructors. I'm 71 and not planning on checking out any way soon🤣, but could I please also have some younger folks in the mix in addition to wise elders to preserve this adaptive tool for posterity?

Love you all and thanks for the special work you do!

Key words
Purpose/goal of Adaptive board


There is lots of really great info here.  I'm learning a lot.

For my own brain organization I may copy/paste some of this into a Table of Contents style format so I can reference it.  If I do so, I'll post it here so newcomers might have a cliff-notes version.

Key words
Purpose/goal of Adaptive board

How Does Instructing an Adaptive Student Differ? How does the Appleseed Experience differ for an Adaptive student?

Well this is a can of worms….meaning we'll do a high altitude overview as an introduction.

From both public and private communication, a common theme among dedicated instructors emerges concerning adaptive Appleseeders: instructors want to help but they are not always sure of how to best help adaptives, and they don't want to offend anyone in the process. Information is power, a mission of this thread.

Let's take a peek into the world of an adaptive person to understand how we can begin to assist an adaptive student on our lines.

What leads to an adaptive condition?
*an injury or illness or both disrupts mobility and/or cognitive function
*when there are long rehabs much energy, focus, determination & grit is required such that it is the adaptive persons life work for a period of time
*residual physical &/or cognitive challenges may remain to varying extents
*Physical &/or cognitive challenges may be temporary or permanent

Most adaptive students at an AS have mobility issues as a result of accidents or recovering from an orthopedic surgical procedure.  Strokes are unfortunately a common illness with mobility and/or cognitive challenges which may or may not linger. Seeing an adaptive former stroke student at our events is also a possibility.

Putting Instructing into perspective…the similar and not so similar:
The nuts and bolts taught at AS are solid position, NPOA, 6 Steps.  Barring any significant cognitive challenges, teaching 6 steps and NPOA is much the same for regular or adaptive students. Mobility challenges and achieving a solid position is where creativity and thinking outside the box really counts. The main idea to keep in mind is to assist the student in achieving the most stable position possible without excess pain or risking further injury. Listen & observe when tweaking the position.

If you haven't checked out this thread before, there are several detailed posts above with adaptive individuals sharing their challenges and related IAO (improvise, adapt, and overcome) solutions. Much to learn. A lot of heart and soul went into the posts in the spirit of helping students and instructors.

[Do you, readers of this post,  also have experiences to share whether it's a personal experience or an experience helping a student? Share it here! These challenge + IAO style posts together can create a great reference tool to benefit all.]

Whether you are a student or an instructor reading this post, please consider that not all adaptive situations are permanent and some will blessedly have full recovery. Simply parking on a bench rest or merely sitting in a chair all day at an event misses the golden opportunity to also learn some of the time proven skills normally taught on the road to rifleman. For example (depending on a particular students abilities)  the "open leg chair position" is a great option to try for those unable to do the regular seated on the ground positions. For those who have use of both arms, the  "Open leg chair" mirrors the same steady hold factors, shifting, NPOA, elevation tweaks as the open leg position done sitting on the ground. This can open the door for working toward the traditional seated position.
Confused? HINT: read all the replies on the thread above this post😁

[i]Each shooter will need to be evaluated for safety and abilities to craft the best option for them.[/i] As students arrive at the event, quietly observing their mobility  is a good start. Also telling them up front you are glad they came goes a long way in opening the dialogue necessary to work as a team in crafting a position for their particular abilities.

As Appleseeders, we all know that becoming a rifleman is not easy and the only path to success involves IAO: Improvise, Adapt, Overcome as well as developing laser sharp rifleman focus, grit, and determination. While some students already have varying degrees of those attributes gained through successes in other areas of life, the rifleman score remains illusive until all those attributes are fully applied and a pinpoint laser focus is mastered.

Important for Instructors to consider….
Folks who have been adaptive for a while and do not accept giving up as an option, have developed their own brand of incredible focus, grit, determination and IAOs just to make it though activities of daily living….all day, every day. Everything takes longer and requires more effort. This can be very frustrating and tiring for the adaptive. Now add the challenges of Appleseed. Can you see how the adaptive student may not be moving as fast as the rest of the line? Can you imagine how extra frustrating getting into any adaptive solid position might be? Progress might be slow for some but even small progress should be honestly commended.
No one can know what the frustration of the adaptive is really like unless you've been there. Just remember,  giving space to let the adaptive come to grips with whatever the frustration is on his own terms and time is sometimes necessary.
Doing anything with a body that doesn't function normally is absolutely exhausting! Again, if it's not you experiencing it, that's hard to fully grasp. When you observe the student getting tired, just let them know it's ok to take a break.

Like many others, getting into positions in the beginning was difficult for me. There were many colorful adjectives during dry practice over several weeks😉, but that was an absolute walk in the park compared to doing it as an adaptive. Exponentially slower to achieve positions again too. Pain complicates everything.

Every adaptive has a different story but just know it is indeed a celebration for an adaptive student to just show up at an Appleseed….everything else is icing on the cake.
Being safe, having some fun and a bit of progress is a success. Rome was not built in a day.
Your questions? Comments?

Key words
Purpose/goal of Adaptive board

Thank you Rambo Granny for that insight.

The concerns for an Adaptive is complex and multi layered based and limited to the time span of a weekend. It will greatly rely on an honest set of open conversations between the shooter, and/or caretaker, and the Appleseed Instructors.

The need to know on a particular set of circumstances will be critical for a weekend event. Need to know the "hard limits" what may not be possible based on one's reality.

Sometime - one's own perception of limitations are their own limited view to new possibilities. That's where "Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome" will be the common denominator.

Trust me on that one.. ..happened to me...  limited my own growth due to ruling out possibilities prematurely.

As Instructors... we need to be flexible. Just like ice cream... there is more than one flavor out there.

Just like there are unique personalities and circumstances.

Reminds me of a phrase spin off the Marine's "Semper Fidelis"

Semper Gumby... Always flexible

Key words
Purpose/goal of Adaptive board

I think something that I had somewhat overlooked, until reading through this post again this morning -- is not only all of the great advice for adaptive shooters, but I had the thought, "these people REALLY LOVE shooting!!"  If you did not love shooting and believe in this program, you would simply walk away when faced with the additional difficulties of being a rifleman/riflewoman. 

I was discussing adaptive shooting with Gunjunkie yesterday and talked about how it really is a very individual experience -- for all shooters really -- what works for one may not work for others, but, that being said, to have someone who is able to give first-hand advice and options, and who could look at someone else's situation and have a better understanding of what might work, is amazing!  Like I said before, at times, I have felt very helpless with people who needed special attention/advice while trying to overcome additional difficulties.  I do think it is important to understand that each situation is different, and to offer what advice is available, but make sure that each person understands that they will just need to relax, try out different positions, etc and figure out what works for them.  As long as they are safe, the should relax and have fun. 

I read a post earlier this week about possibly another patch -- hmmm -- maybe an adaptive Rifleman patch???  What would that look like? hmmm

I think this thread is and will continue to be a big help for future situations.  Honestly, I would say that we have at least one "adaptive" shooter at every event.  Most of them are able to figure out a safe position that works for them, and I am always amazed at how well they do once they get it figured out.

JustKim

Key words
Eye dominance
Safety

Safety considerations: eye dominance and adaptive shooters

Though not as severely challenging as many adaptive conditions posted on this board, cross eye dominance does usually require adaptation.  There are safety considerations with both cross eye dominant shooters and the elderly which merit attention.

Consider…
*When someone needs to shoot with the non dominant eye and we use some sort of vision obscuring device they will experience depth perception challenges as depth perception depends on stereoscopic vision. Lack of depth perception can create problems with everything from prepping magazines to balance and mobility issues.
*With aging, even without other adaptive conditions, balance can be a real concern and it's not unusual for many elderly to be at some risk for falling.
*Some adaptives may also have a condition where they have sensory deficits that prevent awareness of where a leg (or arm) actually is in relation to their surroundings.
*Due to most range rules, glasses must be worn at all times. So taped glasses with cross eye dominance students are often worn continuously even while not shooting.
*All those factors together makes moving around quite disconcerting….and increases the risk of a possible fall. Having experienced all those factors together, I can vouch for it being truly strange. IMHO, something for safety officers to watch.

Using a drugstore eye patch on the outside of the glasses is a great alternative to taping glasses. Just keep the glasses on and merely push the patch up high on the forehead when not actually shooting. A good principle to follow when taping glasses is to obscure the dominant eye only enough to force the non dominant eye into becoming the "shooting" eye. Leaving most of the peripheral vision intact will make for an easier and safer time on the firing line.

Key words
Purpose/goal of Adaptive board


This has been a long neglected topic. I'm glad to see that Rambo Granny has made the substantial effort to bring it more to the forefront of our program. Concerns over abrogating the responsibility of working with adaptive shooters e.g., the additional time that may be required when dealing with adaptive shooters, can now be addressed by researching the posts included in this section. There are several examples that will prove most helpful. Hopefully when you encounter an adaptive shooter that you have helped you will post your results here for all of us to benefit from.

Key words
Mobility
Pain
Question

I think the most common issues I see are back, neck and knees.  Back/Neck make prone position difficult.  I have seen some very interesting prone positions.  Also with all of the above -- getting up and down is a significant issue.  Any suggestions there? Jy if C

Key words
IAO
Adaptive positions

That is a good question.

First proririty is safety.  I place a dummy/practice rifle into that equation and check for any concerns first.

Getting to the prone position is the next question... without transition... to be determined if possible later.

If prone is not possible... I do have a transportable steel shooting bench/table in the trunk of my car.

Disclosure: The NRA has adapted positions for chair-based shooters... see below
Prone: laying both elbows onto a support table
Kneeling: having one (support) elbow resting on table only.
Standing:without any table support

Your mileage may vary...  :~ :~ :~

Key words
Aids to mobility

A step stool or other sturdy device placed next to the shooters position will allow one hand to be used as a steadying support getting or down. Very helpful to old guys like me. Safe muzzle direction must be observed!

Key words
Aids to mobility
Transitions
Question

We had one guy with a short cane-type "stick" he used.  Worked really well for him.  He actually scored and took an orange hat, but has run into some major health issues.  He wants to get involved, but not sure he'll be able to. 

I have also seen some people use step stools.  This works well too --

Any suggestions for those folks who can get up and down, but their knees don't bend too well in the sitting positions -- I have seen some very interesting positions.  I usually just tell them to find something that works for them and to try to get at least one elbow on something -- ideally both elbows, but often times, they are lucky to get one.  This can also be an issue for larger people who are not able to bend over far enough to get their elbows supported.  I guess just finding the most stable position -- maybe us more of the standing position steady hold factors at that point??? 

Key words
IAO
Cross eye dominance
Stock building
Sight alignment
Knee mobility
Safety
Pain

Kim brought up a great point. We do see quite a few student challenges with neck, back, and knees. Add cross eye dominance challenges and 3 out of 4 challenges can be at least helped by building up the stock!
Back and neck problems can be triggered by the physical stress caused when hovering over the stock rather than resting the head on the stock. Straining to keep sight alignment is undue stress. A good stock build up for many is actually pain relief
In dividing the 6 steps  into 3-3 & giving time to working with students early,  building stocks as needed…some problems may be avoided.ðŸ'

Knees that "are stiff" can be problematic. Being stiff as a result of surgery such as "knee replacement" or "total knee" is one that shouldn't be pushed too far particularly under load when getting down. Bending, once into position, may simply not be possible & painful. When you can tell the student is hurting, as instructors, we of course do NOT give any medical advice, but we can always suggest an alternative move or position that "may be less uncomfortable"
It would take a post on its own to define the "stiff knee" or "pushing too far"

Dennis, I can relate to aids to mobility such as your stool. If one is using a chair to shoot stage 2, you're halfway to the ground to go prone.😉

Key words
IAO
Standard cross ankle position

After Kim brought up several great points for discussion, I've been thinking about larger people in seated positions with challenges bending over to get elbows in a workable position. What are some options and how to communicate this?

9mm4545 is a larger person and he makes a very sweet Guinea pig for an experiment.😆 He uses the crossed ankle position with an adaption. It obviously works for him.
First attached picture is his adapted position. Note the elbows.
Second attached picture is different view of same position to see elbows more clearly.
Third attached picture is the experiment. How did he do this?
1.) By pulling his crossed feet slightly closer to body, it does allow more room between the knees for girth
2) By bending from the hips rather than the back, he was able to get the elbow further forward. If the person is flexible enough, this can work, but it could also require much dry practice over time.

If someone has balance issues as well as challenges noted above, the open leg chair position may be an option. Check out this link for a field guide of the open leg chair.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b7fr7l588wz8qeb/Adapted%20Open%20Leg%20Chair%20Position3.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/b7fr7l588wz8qeb/Adapted%20Open%20Leg%20Chair%20Position3.pdf?dl=0)
Just make sure chair is sturdy and not just put together with thin plastic parts that could separate.

Key words
Adaptive shooting Organizations

Quote from: 300berg on July 25, 2022, 09:40:49 AM
These are really great posts, and I am excited to see all this information being gathered in one place.

On my end, I sent an email to someone at our Adaptive Sports program (sent 2 days ago).  I
used 3 of the "action" shots from you and BBQ_Bandit.

I'll post an update when I hear more, but I'm angling for "Let's get a cup of coffee and talk." and
build on that.

Met with the director and some staff of Adaptive Sports Partners North Country (https://adaptivesportspartners.org/) in Franconia, NH this morning.

Very positive meeting and interest in our program all around.

They are going to reach out to adaptive athletes and promote our October 15th shoot. 

Assuming it goes well, the discussion went to planning a larger and more coordinated effort for the coming year.

WOW!!!  AMAZING!!!

Yes, you're right Kim. 300berg really made my day with that news too.
Learning marksmanship skills is gratifying, but it's a whole new exponential level for an adaptive to pull it off. Great antidote for vulnerability felt due to adaptive conditions.
I look forward to hearing the development of this story and helping as needed.
Setting up an event for such a group will be both challenging and very rewarding.
300berg also is working on a  visually spiffy idea for the adaptive board research guide….more appealing than the mere individual post links alone I was considering. Stay tuned… gonna require time and work!

Key words
IAO
Transitions
Mobility
Pain

Janet,
Thank you for demonstrating this technique for me this weekend. I look forward to practicing, and practicing, and practicing and then going to the range and practicing some more.
Eventually I will get the patch and more importantly, I will hope to get an orange and then a red hat to carry on this important tradition.
HUZZAH!!
:F :snipersmi

PopPopNavyGuy,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and GOALS!  O0
Watching you this weekend was awe inspiring for me. Your determination to push through present adversity to make progress and adapt through the limitations is obviously a well honed skill learned through much previous adversity.
Feel free to post here when questions or "pot holes" in your road to Rifleman appear.
Additionally the private messaging system is available on the forum by addressing to the forum screen names: for example…me(Rambo granny), Bruce(9mm4545)
Here's a pic attached for you

Key words
IAO
Open leg chair position
Limited Neck & back mobility
Pain

Attached pictures show a variation on an adaptive theme and the results. This delightful and very determined lady was an honor to assist. Although she stated her main goal in attending Appleseed was the history  ^:)^, this student hung in there and had some joy in shooting after all.
Using a loaner rifle with built up stock helped but the actual turkey neck itself produced real neck & back pain which clearly transcended mere discomfort. We were able to slip off the line where a dummy rifle helped reveal a personalized adaptive solution. In the picture, you'll see basically a standing position in the chair. Placing the support forearm firmly on the chest wall and adding a chicken wing for stability, she could now hit the target without excessive pain. Very cool for a beginning shooter with adaptive challenges.
The target picture is her first try after returning to the active line.
An AQT was not the goal this day, but scoring a personal victory plus hearing history….priceless

Key words
IAO
Trigger finger traumatic injury (previous)
Rifle hand position & Dragging wood

This IAO is the first time we've built this one!
One of our students at the very busy Homestead shoot had a previous significant traumatic injury to his trigger finger. It was "cut to the bone" in an accident and couldn't work smoothly nor sense the finer points of smooth trigger operation. He began using his middle finger instead of the index finger trying to work around it. To solve the serious wood dragging with generally shorter fingers, the hand position was modified. Rather than wrapping the thumb around the stock, we moved the thumb around to the side of the stock creating more air space for a C-shape trigger. With the standard "pulling the stock firmly into the shoulder pocket", it seemed to work. (Obviously relaxing the support fingers will be another challenge.)
As the middle finger doesn't generally perform same range of motions as index finger, this will need dry practice. Gee whiz! He can dry practice with that adapted trigger finger using the "trigger training device (click pen)" anytime he's waiting in line or at a boring meeting. ðŸ˜,

Key words
IAO
AQT
Open leg chair position
Pain

At the Leesburg shoot just completed, we were honored to have 2 delightful senior gentlemen from a very populous, nearby retired community attend. Due to previous surgeries/trauma and likely significant arthritis and stiffness that Father Time brings, seated positions were most difficult & painful for both gentlemen.
Not being able to relax not only makes NPOA elusive, but it brings on muscle fatigue and pain. All of us hate to admit these things, but shooting suffers until adaptive alternatives are employed.
In this case, the open leg chair position referenced many times on this thread brought relief and results. Attached are pictures of both students first attempts at stage 2 of the AQT using the adaptive position. Smiles replaced grimaces. 😁. One gentleman shot rifleman with  the adaptive position and the other showed much promise. I suspect he will also claim his patch at another Appleseed.

Key words
Adaptive

Excellent work Granny!  I loved seeing you work with the shooters first hand on the adaptive side of things.  So inspiring!

Key words
Open leg chair position guide

That's great, Rambo Granny!

Your Guide for Open Leg Chair Position is great.  I'm printing it out for my kit.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b7fr7l588wz8qeb/Adapted%20Open%20Leg%20Chair%20Position3.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/b7fr7l588wz8qeb/Adapted%20Open%20Leg%20Chair%20Position3.pdf?dl=0)

Key Words:
IAO
Open leg chair position
Shifting
NPOA
Safety

300berg
Thanks for sharing the link to the "Guide on Open-legged Chair Position" for anyone reading your post just above this one.

Now having seen some different chairs brought to the range just for sitting but then pressed into service as a shooting base, some observations….

*There are both rigid stackable chairs and folding chairs with the seat bottom slightly lower in back than front. That is desirable for use with the open leg chair shooting position, but there are exceptions of course with some adaptive shooters.
*Sitting too far forward on the seat is "tippy" in some chairs. Watch that students don't sit too far forward. To perform NPOA shifts while seated in the chair, only a couple  inches (or less) clearance between knee bend and leading edge edge of seat bottom is needed if the chair is indexed to the target properly.
*Just as in the position done on the ground, not everyone is flexible enough to get elbows over knees. Use IAO to find most stable alternative the shooter can perform.
Check out both the short description and picture on the post link below as one adaption example of a shooter unable to get elbows anywhere near the knees.

https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=62914.msg405974#msg405974 (https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=62914.msg405974#msg405974)

Quote from: rambo granny on August 25, 2022, 07:42:29 PM
After Kim brought up several great points for discussion, I've been thinking about larger people in seated positions with challenges bending over to get elbows in a workable position. What are some options and how to communicate this?

9mm4545 is a larger person and he makes a very sweet Guinea pig for an experiment.😆 He uses the crossed ankle position with an adaption. It obviously works for him.
First attached picture is his adapted position. Note the elbows.
Second attached picture is different view of same position to see elbows more clearly.
Third attached picture is the experiment. How did he do this?
1.) By pulling his crossed feet slightly closer to body, it does allow more room between the knees for girth
2) By bending from the hips rather than the back, he was able to get the elbow further forward. If the person is flexible enough, this can work, but it could also require much dry practice over time.

If someone has balance issues as well as challenges noted above, the open leg chair position may be an option. Check out this link for a field guide of the open leg chair.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b7fr7l588wz8qeb/Adapted%20Open%20Leg%20Chair%20Position3.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/b7fr7l588wz8qeb/Adapted%20Open%20Leg%20Chair%20Position3.pdf?dl=0)
Just make sure chair is sturdy and not just put together with thin plastic parts that could separate.

Great lost! Very helpful. Thank you for sharing.

Key words
Adaptive shooting organizations

Quote from: 300berg on August 29, 2022, 03:19:13 PM

Quote from: 300berg on July 25, 2022, 09:40:49 AM
These are really great posts, and I am excited to see all this information being gathered in one place.

On my end, I sent an email to someone at our Adaptive Sports program (sent 2 days ago).  I
used 3 of the "action" shots from you and BBQ_Bandit.

I'll post an update when I hear more, but I'm angling for "Let's get a cup of coffee and talk." and
build on that.

EXCELLENT!

tk

Met with the director and some staff of Adaptive Sports Partners North Country (https://adaptivesportspartners.org/) in Franconia, NH this morning.

Very positive meeting and interest in our program all around.

They are going to reach out to adaptive athletes and promote our October 15th shoot. 

Assuming it goes well, the discussion went to planning a larger and more coordinated effort for the coming year.

Key Words:
IAO
Open Leg Chair Position
Shooting Chair Attributes & Examples

The Shooting "Throne" 😁
I received an instructor request in regards to acquiring a chair for adaptives he plans to assist. Seems sharing that compiled info of possible chairs for use with the "open leg chair position" might be helpful to someone else. Here goes:

What works?

*Safety first!
Necessary:
*Sturdy construction. No thin breakable parts.
*Not tippy. A base larger than seat resists tipping over.
* sturdy arms to support body weight while getting down or up.
*seat wide enough to spread knees approximately shoulder width apart and also allow room for shifting NPOA.
Nice optional extras:
*Solid bottom is more stable than soft fabric.
*Back of seat bottom slightly lower than front edge. (Assists bending forward from hips to place elbows on target side of knees if possible)
*Large cup holder can hold magazines, markers, etc.
* My personal chair has back pack style straps allowing a person with a cane to carry the chair
Cool Add On:
Use Velcro straps or wire ties to attach a basket that can hold multiple prepped magazines.
Picture #1
Basket could hold mags, bullets, empty box for counted rounds to go in mags (no mistakes!), shooting glasses, marker
Picture#2
â€"â€"â€"
Sometimes you might be lucky and find a chair just hanging around the range like this
Picture#3
Be sure to check it is in good condition. The one in the picture would be better with wider base, but it was available, sturdy, just ugly. 😉

As of this writing here are 2 chairs that could work and are actually on sale.
Stackable chair from Home Depot is $20 on sale.
Picture#4

https://www.homedepot.com/p/StyleWell-Mix-and-Match-Stackable-Brown-Steel-Sling-Outdoor-Patio-Dining-Chair-in-Denim-FCS00015J-Lblue/309390365 (https://www.homedepot.com/p/StyleWell-Mix-and-Match-Stackable-Brown-Steel-Sling-Outdoor-Patio-Dining-Chair-in-Denim-FCS00015J-Lblue/309390365)

Foldable chair available from West Marine is $74.99 on sale. They will also ship. If you are a West Marine customer, perhaps you have many points accumulated to apply to cost.
Picture#5

https://www.westmarine.com/west-marine-comfort-plus-crew-deck-chair-19606078.html (https://www.westmarine.com/west-marine-comfort-plus-crew-deck-chair-19606078.html)

Reference Guide to Open Leg Chair Position in my Dropbox (free to look & download)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b7fr7l588wz8qeb/Adapted%20Open%20Leg%20Chair%20Position3.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/b7fr7l588wz8qeb/Adapted%20Open%20Leg%20Chair%20Position3.pdf?dl=0)

Monster size pool noodle to the rescue!
Never pre-judge  what an adaptive will be able to do when he sets his sights on what looks to be an impossible goal but puts in the work to make it happen.
With neck and back problems plus significant mobility challenges, prone or seated positions just didn't work for Tim.
While the shooting chair was obviously the safest choice, the open leg chair position written about many times in this thread needed several new creative IAOs for this student. Check out the picture to see how a custom carved monster size noodle solved the problems on both sides. Covering support side chair arm was ONLY way to get enough width for elbow eliminating  the pointy part (diagonal target component).  Going from shotgun patterns to a rifleman score of 222 during the weekend…..amazing.
Tim did say that Appleseed was much harder than any of the qualifications he had to do as a career law enforcement officer!

I do NOT recommend the vertical piece of noodle between trigger elbow and chair arm. A chicken wing instead would make the shooting more challenging and not "too easy".

Instructor info re this post here:
 https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=63881.msg414108#msg414108 (https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=63881.msg414108#msg414108)

We had one adaptive shooter at the  Palm Bay event March 9-10. I didn't know he is adaptive until he showed up. We were on a new range without the big wooden benches the adaptives usually use here. David used a folding chair I had brought to sit on. He added the bag under his trigger elbow to make the triangle for support on Sunday. I didn't have my West Marine chair with me. He started Saturday with 111 and followed it up Sunday with 144, 120, 170, and 147. He shot stages 2, 3, and 4 from the chair. He did shoot standing conventionally. I should add he was shooting a 10-22 with Tech Sights. Over all a pretty good result for adapting an adaptive position.

Thanks for sharing! An adaption of an adaption! Gives others finding themselves in same situation additional ideas for improvising. On equipment, the Main points are watching that the chair is not tippy, is sturdy, and the student has chair arms if needed to get up & down. Love the ingenuity on your part and soooo glad the shooter was able to progress.

Key Words:
IAO
Open leg chair position

Had the pleasure of working with a terrific senior with long standing back problems who could not do seated or prone positions. Of course the open leg chair was obvious choice. A nice tall stock buildup plus the chair eliminated pain as a deterrent to marksmanship teaching.  Carding the sights worked great with instructor on a quick to deploy tall stool allowing great visualization of student. Using a rifleman patch for a "card" and a not so subtle suggestion 🤣 keeps the goal up front. Breaking the dragging wood habit is another story.The student made great progress over the weekend and he left with a big smile. Of course his son making rifleman and taking an orange hat added to that big smile. A great honor to work with this family!
Here's a link to pics on my Dropbox (free) if any challenges viewing same pics below
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/a5l4yhqc0zde9o3loxdu0/Photo-Mar-17-2024-11-21-18-AM.jpg?rlkey=4yeqmqbc425hbq5b7wpl2g5oa&dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/a5l4yhqc0zde9o3loxdu0/Photo-Mar-17-2024-11-21-18-AM.jpg?rlkey=4yeqmqbc425hbq5b7wpl2g5oa&dl=0)